Forwards Next Year - Fixing the Middle Six

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Botterill is giving old Darcy Regier a run for his money in terms of slow, patient development, with supreme belief in "his guys" to get the job done.  His slow and steady approach is going to be a failure.

If we are ever good, guys like Eichel will have survived through so many lean years at this pace, they will be turned off of this organization.

I'm not advocating jeopardizing the long term future of the team for a really short term gain; I'm advocating moving a little quicker than J Bots feels comfortable doing.  He has to speed it up.

 

 

 

In less than two years:

In: Montour, Hutton, Skinner, Sobotka, Berglund, Thompson, Wilson, Scandella, Pominville, Pilut, Dahlin, Mittelstadt, Dougherty, Hickey, Tennyson, Hunwick, Leier, Redmond, Wedgewood, Sheary, Elie, O'Regan

Out: Kane O'Reilly, Gionta, Moulson, Foligno, Franson, Ennis, Beaulieu, Carrier, Falk, Fedun, Gorges, Kulikov, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, Grant, Deslauriers, Lehner, Nilsson, Guhle, Pu.

How much faster could he have gone?

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Kruppstahl said:

His slow and steady approach is going to be a failure.

I'm going to bookmark this post so I can rub your nose in it when the Sabres win the Cup.

[Weave]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Sam got two stints at centre, no?

Early in his rookie year and early last year - both on the 3rd line and both for maybe 15 games, with guys like Griffith and Pouliot on his wings?

And whatever happens in practices and preseasons.  I’m pretty comfortable given that, what, 3 coaches now? see him as a wing and not a center.  At this point I think anyone still clamoring for Sam at center is projecting.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

In less than two years:

In: Montour, Hutton, Skinner, Sobotka, Berglund, Thompson, Wilson, Scandella, Pominville, Pilut, Dahlin, Mittelstadt, Dougherty, Hickey, Tennyson, Hunwick, Leier, Redmond, Wedgewood, Sheary, Elie, O'Regan

Out: Kane O'Reilly, Gionta, Moulson, Foligno, Franson, Ennis, Beaulieu, Carrier, Falk, Fedun, Gorges, Kulikov, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, Grant, Deslauriers, Lehner, Nilsson, Guhle, Pu.

How much faster could he have gone?

Very impressive work here, duda.  Some of those guys on the 'in' list I don't even remember.  Leier?

One small correction, though.  You forgot to also include Bergsie on the 'out' list.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

4 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Very impressive work here, duda.  Some of those guys on the 'in' list I don't even remember.  Leier?

One small correction, though.  You forgot to also include Bergsie on the 'out' list.

Leier was the guy we got for Bailey.

[nfreeman]

9 hours ago, Weave said:

Sam is an outstanding winger and we have too few of them.  I don't see the value in taking an outstanding winger and turning him into a mediocre center.  He is in his best position to succeed.

I wouldn't be opposed to giving Reino another whirl at C, but I agree that he's found a home and has played well to very well (not sure I'm all the way to "outstanding" though) at RW.  I also agree with your point about several coaches having taken his measure and determined that his best spot is RW.  Among other things, I don't see him being able to come all the way back and support the D like a center needs to do, while he does very well in getting the puck out of the zone from the half-wall in the RW spot.

Having said that, I also think Reino is a very good playmaker from the wing, and thus fulfilling a lot of what the team needs from the C position.  I think if Sheary could play as well as he did last night, then Reino, Sheary and Erod or other good-but-not-great #2C could form a good 2nd line.  (Unfortunately, I have a hard time seeing Sheary suddenly flipping the switch and becoming a 22-26-48 guy -- he doesn't seem to have enough game for that -- but I hope I'm wrong.)

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

In less than two years:

In: Montour, Hutton, Skinner, Sobotka, Berglund, Thompson, Wilson, Scandella, Pominville, Pilut, Dahlin, Mittelstadt, Dougherty, Hickey, Tennyson, Hunwick, Leier, Redmond, Wedgewood, Sheary, Elie, O'Regan

Out: Kane O'Reilly, Gionta, Moulson, Foligno, Franson, Ennis, Beaulieu, Carrier, Falk, Fedun, Gorges, Kulikov, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, Grant, Deslauriers, Lehner, Nilsson, Guhle, Pu.

How much faster could he have gone?

 

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Very impressive work here, duda.  Some of those guys on the 'in' list I don't even remember.  Leier?

One small correction, though.  You forgot to also include Bergsie on the 'out' list.

Baloo should be both in the "in" and "out" list as he was acquired by Jbot and then traded by Jbot.

The turnover since Jbot got here has been incredible and at least so far as to Rochester has taken them from failure to near the top of the league.  If the Sabres continue to play decent hockey down the stretch, he'll have also improved the Sabres from the TM high water mark of 81 points.

Edited March 2, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[Taro T]

53 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I wouldn't be opposed to giving Reino another whirl at C, but I agree that he's found a home and has played well to very well (not sure I'm all the way to "outstanding" though) at RW.  I also agree with your point about several coaches having taken his measure and determined that his best spot is RW. Among other things, I don't see him being able to come all the way back and support the D like a center needs to do, while he does very well in getting the puck out of the zone from the half-wall in the RW spot.

Having said that, I also think Reino is a very good playmaker from the wing, and thus fulfilling a lot of what the team needs from the C position.  I think if Sheary could play as well as he did last night, then Reino, Sheary and Erod or other good-but-not-great #2C could form a good 2nd line.  (Unfortunately, I have a hard time seeing Sheary suddenly flipping the switch and becoming a 22-26-48 guy -- he doesn't seem to have enough game for that -- but I hope I'm wrong.)

Further, should he be the F low in his own zone when the play breaks out, he doesn't have the footspeed IMHO to allow the full line to rush as a unit assuming the 2nd line would have speedsters on it as Botterill & Housley seem to prefer.

His playing RW on either of the top 2 lines is one of the things that's working.  I'm fine with keeping him in 1 of those 2 roles.

[Doohicksie]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

he doesn't have the footspeed

[Taro T]

13 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

No.

[Doohicksie]

It may have been true at one time, but watch him out there.  When he chooses to he can really burn it.  I think he can cruise around at less-than-top speed much of the time because his read of the play puts him in the right location ahead of time.

[Taro T]

17 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

It may have been true at one time, but watch him out there.  When he chooses to he can really burn it.  I think he can cruise around at less-than-top speed much of the time because his read of the play puts him in the right location ahead of time.

JFC, you are responding to a single CLAUSE within a sentence.  If he is trying to break out of the zone from 40' behind Rodrigues & Sheary (or perhaps even somebody speedier as those are the types of guys Botterill & Housley covet) he will STILL be trailing them entering the zone.  They ARE faster than him.

And how the #### is an OPINION a LIE?  Chicken hat seems to be on a bit too tight tonight.

[PerreaultForever]

The big question for me is identity for the 3rd line. I think it's clear they want 2 top scoring lines and that's why they keep sticking to the develop Mitts plan and I don't disagree with it. I've said elsewhere we need 2 wingers one right and one left (assuming Skinner signs) to complete those lines. I disagree with the popular 2C view. I think it will be Mitts and he will be much better next year. So a left winger to play with Mitts and Sam and a right winger to play with Skinner and Eichel.  I don't know who that would be but  Johanson and Dzingel are the 2 affordable choices I'd look at in free agency. Ferland is an idea but I don't think that fits JBot's philosophy.

Line 3 though, what do we want it to be? Right now it's a hodge podge of nothing. Sobodka's a defensive checking guy, Tage is an offensive floater. No identity for that line at all whoever we have for it so it's hard to say how to build it. Maybe they know, but at the moment to me it's in total limbo.

 

 

 

[PalmTreeMafia]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

The big question for me is identity for the 3rd line. I think it's clear they want 2 top scoring lines and that's why they keep sticking to the develop Mitts plan and I don't disagree with it. I've said elsewhere we need 2 wingers one right and one left (assuming Skinner signs) to complete those lines. I disagree with the popular 2C view. I think it will be Mitts and he will be much better next year. So a left winger to play with Mitts and Sam and a right winger to play with Skinner and Eichel.  I don't know who that would be but  Johanson and Dzingel are the 2 affordable choices I'd look at in free agency. Ferland is an idea but I don't think that fits JBot's philosophy.

Line 3 though, what do we want it to be? Right now it's a hodge podge of nothing. Sobodka's a defensive checking guy, Tage is an offensive floater. No identity for that line at all whoever we have for it so it's hard to say how to build it. Maybe they know, but at the moment to me it's in total limbo.

 

 

 

No, the issue is quite clearly the talent on the 2nd scoring line. We have more than enough pieces to put together a capable 3rd and 4th lines. The problem is that we currently have ZERO capable top-6 forwards outside Skinner-Eichel-Reinhart. I don't trust Sheary's past two games to continue much longer. And anyone who trusts Mitts, Thompson, Oloffson, or Nylander to fill a top-6 forward spot in October is out of their ***** minds. Mitts has faceplanted all season long, and while he's only 20, so far I see little evidence that he will progress much in 7 months.

If you want an identity for the 3rd line, how about the "young scoring line still finding themselves in the NHL" identity similar to what we once had with Vanek-Roy-Pominville in the mid-2000's? Leave the 2nd line to players not currently on the roster who can reliably score so that this team can actually stand a chance in making the playoffs next season. Acquire these players by trade or free agency, and do it with some ***** urgency as if GM and HC jobs are on the line...because they should be.

[PerreaultForever]

10 minutes ago, Marchand'sNose said:

No, the issue is quite clearly the talent on the 2nd scoring line. We have more than enough pieces to put together a capable 3rd and 4th lines. The problem is that we currently have ZERO capable top-6 forwards outside Skinner-Eichel-Reinhart. I don't trust Sheary's past two games to continue much longer. And anyone who trusts Mitts, Thompson, Oloffson, or Nylander to fill a top-6 forward spot in October is out of their ***** minds. Mitts has faceplanted all season long, and while he's only 20, so far I see little evidence that he will progress much in 7 months.

If you want an identity for the 3rd line, how about the "young scoring line still finding themselves in the NHL" identity similar to what we once had with Vanek-Roy-Pominville in the mid-2000's? Leave the 2nd line to players not currently on the roster who can reliably score so that this team can actually stand a chance in making the playoffs next season. Acquire these players by trade or free agency, and do it with some ***** urgency as if GM and HC jobs are on the line...because they should be.

If you actually read my post you'd see I said we need 2 wingers to complete those lines and only then will we have 2 top lines. the formative pieces are there.

The third line however is an absolute garbage dump and gives us absolutely no scoring. Thus Housley has to constantly play strength against strength and that ends up limiting the top line as well. Give me a real 3rd line that can play and all kinds of matching options open up. Changes the entire dynamic. 

[In The Buff]

You two guys with the 2nd line / 3rd line thing. What we can all agree on is our middle 6 is what the issue is & in that you're both right. We need a better 2C since Mitts isnt ready yet for that role, and we need another winger or 2 that can produce now for the 3rd line. Ideally we'd want to have 4 rolling lines, 3 of which that can score. As opposed to what we have now with just 1 top heavy line.

But theres no way in hell do i want to go into next season with Mitts as our 2C. He's got talent no doubt, but he's a couple years away from the added muscle growth & strength he needs to play at this level. We definitely need to address that spot going into next season if we have any hopes of having 2 solid lines

[SABRES 0311]

Broken record with me but put Larry as 3C. Before anyone blasts the idea with witch craft analytics ask yourself, why not and what else do we have to lose?

Edited March 3, 2019 by SABRES 0311

[bob_sauve28]

On 3/2/2019 at 3:21 AM, SABRES 0311 said:

I like Larry’s Line. They work hard and can generate Ozone time. Larry and Girgs do good on the PK.

But they never score goals! That is a problem 

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said:

Broken record with me but put Larry as 3C. Before anyone blasts the idea with witch craft analytics ask yourself, why not and what else do we have to lose?

Lots of games.

Who needs analytics to see that? Dude has 31 NHL career goals.

And isn’t Larry the third line centre already? Gets more ice time than Sobotka or Mittelstadt.

[Taro T]

38 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Lots of games.

Who needs analytics to see that? Dude has 31 NHL career goals.

And isn’t Larry the third linI centre already? Gets more ice time than Sobotka or Mittelstadt.

Which gets back to the semantics debate: now that teams no longer have "energy lines" does the traditional 3rd checking line stay labelled as the 3rd line with the 3rd scoring line now the 4th line or does that 3rd scoring line get labelled the 3rd line & the checking line get labelled as the 4th line.

We seem to have accepted the convention put out by the teams themselves that the checking line is now the 4th line, though by playing time & importance to/impact on results a very legit case can be made that the 4th line is in fact the 3rd line.

As to the question of why not have Larsson center the 3rd line, you put it very well: he plays more than the 3rd line C already and will never generate offense in any appreciable amount.  He IS the checking C.  Moving him to the 3rd scoring line hurts both of the bottom 2 lines.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Taro T

[SABRES 0311]

1 hour ago, bob_sauve28 said:

But they never score goals! That is a problem 

Nobody scores except Jack and Skinner. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 hour ago, SABRES 0311 said:

Nobody scores except Jack and Skinner. 

Speaking of which, when was the last time Skinny scored?  In a hockey game, that is.

[SABRES 0311]

19 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Speaking of which, when was the last time Skinny scored?  In a hockey game, that is.

Good question. Maybe he needs to score a downtown Buffalo hat trick to get back to scoring on the ice.

[DarthEbriate]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Lots of games.

Who needs analytics to see that? Dude has 31 NHL career goals.

And isn’t Larry the third line centre already? Gets more ice time than Sobotka or Mittelstadt.

I like Larry, and he's a solid checking line 3/4C who gets defensive zone draws. He's finally accepted that (remember when he didn't?) and he's competent at it. He's never been in the playoffs to get those timely Samuel Pahlsson goals, and he'll never be as good as Pahlsson, much to my chagrin (when we traded for him). But at least he's come back from that double-broken arm/wrist thing.

Of course, it's however we choose to define the lines. SC1-3, Energy 4, or SC1-2, checking 3, and energy 4. Or -- back in 2006 when we rolled 4 with no regard for type (Gaustad and Drury on the same 2nd line!?). This brings up a different point... the coach is really important in crafting what he or she has available into a competitive team.

Back in the day (1999 playoffs) I'd argue Peca was the 3rd line center. SC1, SC2, CL3 to take on the toughest assignments (more minutes than SC2), and then energy line 4 (wherever Ray and Barnaby were --- or in the playoffs, Rasmussen-Zinger-Primeau -- the energy line).

[PerreaultForever]

On 3/2/2019 at 10:45 AM, dudacek said:

In less than two years:

In: Montour, Hutton, Skinner, Sobotka, Berglund, Thompson, Wilson, Scandella, Pominville, Pilut, Dahlin, Mittelstadt, Dougherty, Hickey, Tennyson, Hunwick, Leier, Redmond, Wedgewood, Sheary, Elie, O'Regan

Out: Kane O'Reilly, Gionta, Moulson, Foligno, Franson, Ennis, Beaulieu, Carrier, Falk, Fedun, Gorges, Kulikov, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, Grant, Deslauriers, Lehner, Nilsson, Guhle, Pu.

How much faster could he have gone?

Got to amend this slightly.

In: Montour, Hutton, Pilut, Dahlin, Mittlestadt, sort of Sheary and Scandella - maybe Skinner.

Out: Kane, O'Reilly, Lehner, Foligno, sort of Kulikov.

The rest are irrelevant. 

The big thing though is the cap is in really good shape next year and we have room to add pieces. If we do not, the O'Reilly dump is less positive.