Trade: Beaulieu to Winnipeg for 6th rounder

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, jame said:

Are you saying Botts was prevented from hiring a better coach?

No, I'm saying the style they play helps goaltenders. Unless we suddenly think Greiss is good too.

[Pimlach]

I thought Bealieu played pretty well this season.  Better than Scandy.  At least as good as Hunwick.  Some aspects of his game I like more than Pilut. 

He was not going to see anymore ice so Bots did him a favor.  He will probably help Winnipeg. 

A 6th is lower than I expected but its something.  Bots will draft a college sophomore that is in a good program and hope that he does something drastic in two years. 

Didn't we just give a 6th pick away one year?  I recall something odd about it. 

[jsb]

10 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I thought Bealieu played pretty well this season.  

He was not going to see anymore ice so Bots did him a favor.  He will probably help Winnipeg. 

A 6th is lower than I expected but its something. 

I thought he was much better than last year. He appeared to go directly to the doghouse with his trade me comments.

Look at it as they picked up 3.4 million dollar contract and they got rid of 2.4 although Nathan will be a RFA after this season. JBott the salary cap wizard.

[shrader]

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I thought Bealieu played pretty well this season.  Better than Scandy.  At least as good as Hunwick.  Some aspects of his game I like more than Pilut. 

He was not going to see anymore ice so Bots did him a favor.  He will probably help Winnipeg. 

A 6th is lower than I expected but its something.  Bots will draft a college sophomore that is in a good program and hope that he does something drastic in two years. 

Didn't we just give a 6th pick away one year?  I recall something odd about it. 

We gave away last year’s 6th round pick for Toronto’s this year. Kind of an odd transaction on paper. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re thinking of. 

And Hunwick is a bit of a special case. If they had traded him, our third round pick this year would go to Pittsburgh (instead of the 4th). So if you look to move him instead of Beaulieu, that a known price that you’ll have to balance out if you’re looking to compare value. So do you hope to move Hunwick and a 3rd in exchange for a 6th and a 4th, or just stick with the today’s deal? And that’s if you can even get that similar deal for Hunwick. 

2 minutes ago, jsb said:

I thought he was much better than last year. He appeared to go directly to the doghouse with his trade me comments.

Look at it as they picked up 3.4 million dollar contract and they got rid of 2.4 although Nathan will be a RFA after this season. JBott the salary cap wizard.

He was already glued to the press box when he made the request, so if he was in the dog house, he was there before the request. 

[jsb]

1 minute ago, shrader said:

He was already glued to the press box when he made the request, so if he was in the dog house, he was there before the request. 

Yes I agree but he was still playing more than sitting for the most part. He really sat afterward.

[shrader]

4 minutes ago, jsb said:

Yes I agree but he was still playing more than sitting for the most part. He really sat afterward.

It’s all a giant blur of suck right now in my mind. He could have gotten into 20 fights per game and lost both eyes and I still wouldn’t remember it. 

[Stoner]

He came out of the clouds and made me cry.

[jame]

50 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No, I'm saying the style they play helps goaltenders. Unless we suddenly think Greiss is good too.

Yes. I think everyone is in agreement on the incredibly successful system that a high quality coach implemented to ensure his young, talent deficient team could be successful and learn how to win. My point is nothing was preventing Botts from hiring good coaches who know how to build a young team... other than Botts himself.

or another way of putting it, is that the circumstances of Lehner success this year are not an excuse for Botts

 

[Cascade Youth]

It’s funny, I suspect many folks wouldn’t have minded at all if BooLoo had been waived outright - but now that some team wanted him enough to trade for him we’re outraged that Botts couldn’t get more in return...

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

It’s funny, I suspect many folks wouldn’t have minded at all if BooLoo had been waived outright - but now that some team wanted him enough to trade for him we’re outraged that Botts couldn’t get more in return...

This may be more on semantics, but I expect almost everybody would be crucifying Botterill had Beaulieu been waived.

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

This may be more on semantics, but I expect almost everybody would be crucifying Botterill had Beaulieu been waived.

Nah, just Force-choked.

A 6th isn't much, but it's the proverbial better than letting him walk (as even with RFA we weren't likely to use the roster spot on him). Instead, get some college prospect or possible sleeper with the pick.

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, LikeEich said:

How many people called for him Murray's head? How many were surprised when he was fired? The answer is not enough. I'm hindsight it's easy to see how bad he boned us. 

Well I never liked the hire and was doubtful from day 1. The whole thing with LaFontaine and everything just felt weird and wrong and we end up with this inexperienced product of nepotism. Recipe for disaster.  Proven mistake as he threw about draft picks like they were used scratch lottery tickets. Worst GM ever.

JBot, on the other hand has worked hard and earned his place under a solid GM on a successful team so I give his hire the benefit of a doubt. He earns his place by making the team progressively better. If the team is better this year than last year he is doing ok. Simple as that, and it is.

Going back and critiquing things like Lehner is just looking for a way to critique unfairly. Nobody, absolutely nobody thought Lehner should be given a new contract by us and everybody was happy the trainwreck left town. islanders gambled and won for the moment but we will see how long that lasts. I remember way back a Latvian goalie Arturs Irbe was a big deal and then he became a hopeless alcoholic and then had a bounce back year and then busted again. lehner could get a long term deal now and then slide right back into oblivion or he could be best in the league for years. No way to know and good luck to him. None of that is on JBot. 

Will every single JBot deal be great, unlikely, like all GMs he will hit and miss, but if we keep getting better, JBot gets a thumbs up.That is all. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

@PerreaultForever

I like your takes, but TM was not the worst GM ever.  That title belongs to Mike Milbury with Don Waddell a close second.

He is a list of the guys Milbury traded away during his tenure with the NYI. "He traded away defensemen Zdeno Chara, Wade Redden, Bryan Berard, Eric Brewer, Darius Kasparaitis, and Bryan McCabe; goaltenders Roberto Luongo and Tommy Salo; as well as forwards Olli Jokinen, Todd Bertuzzi, Tim Connolly, Jean-Pierre Dumont, and Raffi Torres. Milbury has also come under fire for his poor draft-day decisions such as choosing Rick DiPietro first overall in 2000 over Dany Heatley and Marian Gaborik, as well as his decision to include the 2001 second overall draft pick (Jason Spezza) as part of the Alexei Yashin trade." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Milbury

Don Waddell - During his 12 years as Atlanta GM not one 2nd rd pick ever made the NHL for 100 games.  Enough said.

[LikeEich]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well I never liked the hire and was doubtful from day 1. The whole thing with LaFontaine and everything just felt weird and wrong and we end up with this inexperienced product of nepotism. Recipe for disaster.  Proven mistake as he threw about draft picks like they were used scratch lottery tickets. Worst GM ever.

JBot, on the other hand has worked hard and earned his place under a solid GM on a successful team so I give his hire the benefit of a doubt. He earns his place by making the team progressively better. If the team is better this year than last year he is doing ok. Simple as that, and it is.

Going back and critiquing things like Lehner is just looking for a way to critique unfairly. Nobody, absolutely nobody thought Lehner should be given a new contract by us and everybody was happy the trainwreck left town. islanders gambled and won for the moment but we will see how long that lasts. I remember way back a Latvian goalie Arturs Irbe was a big deal and then he became a hopeless alcoholic and then had a bounce back year and then busted again. lehner could get a long term deal now and then slide right back into oblivion or he could be best in the league for years. No way to know and good luck to him. None of that is on JBot. 

Will every single JBot deal be great, unlikely, like all GMs he will hit and miss, but if we keep getting better, JBot gets a thumbs up.That is all. 

For the record, I agree. I think JBot has done a pretty good job. Some mistakes along the way, but nothing too bad. The good outweighs the few minor mistakes 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@PerreaultForever

I like your takes, but TM was not the worst GM ever.  That title belongs to Mike Milbury with Don Waddell a close second.

 

Sorry, I meant worst Sabres GM ever. I should have been clearer on that.  I wouldn't argue Milbury as worst ever for everyone. 

[Berg]

Men differ from women in logic. Yesterday we took the defender for the first round, today we gave for the 6th. This is at a time when a large number of teams have an acute shortage of defenders and, for example, Edmonton bought trash for good attackers from Chicago. We could get a lot more and that is a fact ..

[Eleven]

6 hours ago, Berg said:

Men differ from women in logic. Yesterday we took the defender for the first round, today we gave for the 6th. This is at a time when a large number of teams have an acute shortage of defenders and, for example, Edmonton bought trash for good attackers from Chicago. We could get a lot more and that is a fact ..

If the Sabres could have received more in return for Beaulieu, they would have.  Obviously, Botterill was trying all day to maximize the return, otherwise the trade wouldn't have been submitted so late.

And what does any of this have to do with your weird first sentence?

[Skibum]

Nice kneauwing yieu.

[...]

15 hours ago, jame said:

Yes. I think everyone is in agreement on the incredibly successful system that a high quality coach implemented to ensure his young, talent deficient team could be successful and learn how to win. My point is nothing was preventing Botts from hiring good coaches who know how to build a young team... other than Botts himself.

or another way of putting it, is that the circumstances of Lehner success this year are not an excuse for Botts

So here's a thought, perhaps more tangential than directly related to this sliver of conversation...

What if instead of assembling a roster of those whose stats are favorable without regard for the team and circumstances around them, and then expecting to find a coach who can create a system that works best for that assemblage (which I believe was the plan of exGMTM) what if JBot is working in a different direction?

What if that direction is thus:  determine a style/system of hockey that has a better chance of success in the playoffs than other styles/systems (there must be data to ascertain this, no?).  Find a coach who ostensibly will be excellent with that style/system.  Create a roster that can successfully play that style/system.  

What say you, dear reader, about this as "the plan"?  

[Berg]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

If the Sabres could have received more in return for Beaulieu, they would have.  Obviously, Botterill was trying all day to maximize the return, otherwise the trade wouldn't have been submitted so late.

And what does any of this have to do with your weird first sentence?

I think that it was possible to find a team that would give more. But most likely this deal was spontaneous. What did we win with this exchange other than money?

[SDS]

31 minutes ago, ... said:

So here's a thought, perhaps more tangential than directly related to this sliver of conversation...

What if instead of assembling a roster of those whose stats are favorable without regard for the team and circumstances around them, and then expecting to find a coach who can create a system that works best for that assemblage (which I believe was the plan of exGMTM) what if JBot is working in a different direction?

What if that direction is thus:  determine a style/system of hockey that has a better chance of success in the playoffs than other styles/systems (there must be data to ascertain this, no?).  Find a coach who ostensibly will be excellent with that style/system.  Create a roster that can successfully play that style/system.  

What say you, dear reader, about this as "the plan"?  

That's exactly what is happening. It's why Phil is not in danger. It's why Jason isn't freaking out over losing streaks and forcing trades.  

The Pegulas are fundamentally operating under a different mode since Rex Ryan/Tim Murray really embarrassed them.

[LGR4GM]

16 hours ago, jame said:

Yes. I think everyone is in agreement on the incredibly successful system that a high quality coach implemented to ensure his young, talent deficient team could be successful and learn how to win. My point is nothing was preventing Botts from hiring good coaches who know how to build a young team... other than Botts himself.

or another way of putting it, is that the circumstances of Lehner success this year are not an excuse for Botts

 

You keep and have kept moving the goalpost on this convo. First it was Lehner should have gone to Rochester to get his confidence back. I said I think he would not have cleared waivers, you completely dismissed that even though we have a goalie who was older that literally was claimed on waivers last season. Then it was look how good he is on the Islanders in the right system. So I said well we don't play that boring low event system. Now we have progressed to Botterill should have hired a coach to install that system because it would have lead to success here and Lehner would have been good.

No. Lehner is not a good goaltender. I have watched enough of his games to know that. He is bad at puck tracking, bad at rebound control, and bad at staying focused. He needed a change of scenery for personal reasons and is making the most of his opportunity in a system that plays to his strengths (he's big and moves well).  

So no we do not agree. We do not agree that the Islanders system would work in Buffalo or be successful here or that we would want to watch it. I personally would not. 

As to the bolded, not excuse for Botts to what? He let Lehner go. That was a good move. Lehner was a basket case in that room and we literally know that. Every single thing that goes into Lehner being better this year is a another variable that you expected Botterill to control which is IMPO wrong.

Botterill had to waive Lehner, Lehner has to not get claimed. Lehner then has to have success in the AHL while getting his head together or confidence up. Botterill has to get Lehner's head straight, Lehner has to get his head straight. Botterill has to fire his coach of 1 year who plays a system Botterill wants so Lehner can play in a lower event system. Botterill has to hire a coach that may or may not want to come to Buffalo and could have asked for way too much money. Lehner has to come into that low event system and be successful. 20 some odd other players on the ice have to fit that system. Now, after all of that, Botterill has done the right thing in your mind. 

Or

Botterill could cut ties with Lehner and continue to find players that fit the style of hockey that he wants to see played in Buffalo. 

 

My conclusion. You don't agree with Botterill's view of how the game should be played and the corresponding moves to play the game that way. Simple as that. 

[Eleven]

6 minutes ago, Berg said:

I think that it was possible to find a team that would give more. But most likely this deal was spontaneous. What did we win with this exchange other than money?

They can’t rotate ten D in and out.  Someone had to go.  Allevidence points to a long day rather than spontaneity.  And what,s your deal with women’s and men’s logic?

[shrader]

25 minutes ago, Berg said:

I think that it was possible to find a team that would give more. But most likely this deal was spontaneous. What did we win with this exchange other than money?

Beaulieu had requested a trade ages ago at this point.  What would make you think this deal was spontaneous at this point?  They completely ignored him and then finally decided to take calls at the last second?  That's highly unlikely.

Now someone might want to argue that he had more value and should be playing, but the opinion that matters the most on that is the people who actually set the game day roster.  Beaulieu has played 5 games in 2019, so clearly the guys making that decision did not want him playing.  So at that point, he has very little value to them, especially given that they've been carrying about 85 defensemen lately.  From that point of view, you take whatever you can get to clear him off of the roster.

[SDS]

9 minutes ago, shrader said:

Beaulieu had requested a trade ages ago at this point.  What would make you think this deal was spontaneous at this point?  They completely ignored him and then finally decided to take calls at the last second?  That's highly unlikely.

Now someone might want to argue that he had more value and should be playing, but the opinion that matters the most on that is the people who actually set the game day roster.  Beaulieu has played 5 games in 2019, so clearly the guys making that decision did not want him playing.  So at that point, he has very little value to them, especially given that they've been carrying about 85 defensemen lately.  From that point of view, you take whatever you can get to clear him off of the roster.

You don’t find the argument “he’s so valuable to us that we don’t play him because we are afraid he’s going to get hurt” compelling enough to jack up your offer?