Official:Trade Brandon Montour to Buffalo for 1st and Guhle

[...]

37 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

The bold text is a straw man.  As you know, it's not a font issue.  There is a general problem with your tone.

The nuggets below are all from the last few hours in just this thread.  All of them are obnoxious and not OK.

I'm glad you are proofreading posts and trying to improve.  Hopefully that will address the situation.  We are not going to have valued members of the community get fed up and leave because you are incapable of friendly and respectful communication.

I really can't believe I'm reading this.  

[nfreeman]

Just now, ... said:

I really can't believe I'm reading this.  

How so?

[Taro T]

17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

For what it’s worth, I think it’s easy to read tone into the written word based on past experience even when it may not be there.

****

To the point, I am really intrigued to see if Montour can emerge into a Brian Campbell level puck mover.

At the moment he’s closer to where Beaulieu was when we acquired him than most here would like to admit.

The Ducks know D and decided to move on. Why?

I’ve read some stuff about Botterill’s asset management today that strikes me as petty. I’m far more concerned about his player judgement at the NHL level.

Hes targeted guys like Sheary and Berglund and Beaulieu and his whole first free agent class who seemed to be value pickups but have disappointed on the ice.

I need to see a win here.

Just out of curiosity, what suggests that Berglund was "targeted" by Botterill?   He was 1 of 5 assets returned for O'Reilly.  He seemed to be a piece to fill in in the interim until Mittelstadt was ready for 2C duty.

Would agree he targeted Sherry.  He also targeted Scandella, Skinner, & Hutton.  The rest were, as you say "value pickups."

Edited February 25, 2019 by Taro T

[...]

Just now, nfreeman said:

How so?

We can take this offline if you want.  This thread wasn't the place for all of this from the get go.

[Derrico]

47 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think it's a decent trade. I doubt Guhle so yea, we'll see how that first turns out. 

If Guhle doesn't make it or is a 6/7 type then I think whoever the Ducks draft will be hoping in 4 years they will be as impactful and have the upside of Montour.  Many things can make this trade go south but we've now added two top 4 dmen in the span of 8 months.  On paper, d looks much improved the rest of this year and more importantly puck drop 2019/2020.

[dudacek]

19 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Just out of curiosity, what suggests that Berglund was "targeted" by Botterill?   He was 1 of 5 assets returned for O'Reilly.  He seemed to be a piece to fill in in the interim until Mittelstadt was ready for 2C duty.

Would agree he targeted Sherry.  He also targeted Scandella, Skinner, & Hutton.  The rest were, as you say "value pickups."

Perhaps a better phrase would have been “acquired” Today seems to be rife with discussions being derailed by semantics. ?

I understand there is an argument to be made that Berglund was forced on the Sabres. But I think he was acquired in order to bulwark Casey in the middle six.

With the notable and hugely mitigating exception of Skinner, Botterill’s acquisitions so far have been stopgaps or disappointments. Scandella Hutton and Sheary aren’t going to play key roles moving forward. O’Regan, Nolan, Wilson, Pouliot, Beaulieu, Berglund, Sobotka, Pomonville, are filler. Thompson might be something. Pilut might.

Sure Botterill had a mess to clean and that takes time. But he paid a real price for Montour. Montour needs to make us better.

Edited February 25, 2019 by dudacek

[Stoner]

19 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

How so?

Because your critique of "tone" is a joke?

And, again, no one's leaving over Jame. Come on. Dare I say — NONSENSE!

Where were you when I was personally attacked, probably the worst personal attack we've ever had on here?

Edited February 25, 2019 by PASabreFan

[Derrico]

32 minutes ago, dudacek said:

For what it’s worth, I think it’s easy to read tone into the written word based on past experience even when it may not be there.

****

To the point, I am really intrigued to see if Montour can emerge into a Brian Campbell level puck mover.

At the moment he’s closer to where Beaulieu was when we acquired him than most here would like to admit.

The Ducks know D and decided to move on. Why?

I’ve read some stuff about Botterill’s asset management today that strikes me as petty. I’m far more concerned about his player judgement at the NHL level.

Hes targeted guys like Sheary and Berglund and Beaulieu and his whole first free agent class who seemed to be value pickups but have greatly disappointed on the ice.

I need to see a win here.

Wow.  I'm usually right in sink with most of your points but completely disagree on Montour being close to Beaulieu level.  Beaulieu was being benched by Montreal in the playoffs prior to acquisition.  The third round price tag reflects that.  Montour with a bit of a down year but seems to have enormous upside based on everything I've read.  Admittedly I haven't seen him play much.  Again, a vastly greater acquisition cost was needed.  If he's close to Beaulieu level then jbotts should be gone.

[shrader]

6 minutes ago, Derrico said:

If Guhle doesn't make it or is a 6/7 type then I think whoever the Ducks draft will be hoping in 4 years they will be as impactful and have the upside of Montour.  Many things can make this trade go south but we've now added two top 4 dmen in the span of 8 months.  On paper, d looks much improved the rest of this year and more importantly puck drop 2019/2020.

Just like so many other deals like this, you can’t really give it a final grade. Buffalo gets he best player today and the Ducks get two different rolls of he dice. We don’t know how those two will pan out. He’ll, we don’t even know if the Ducks will keep either. 

[shrader]

3 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

 

Where were you when I was personally attacked, probably the worst personal attack we've ever had on here?

I will never stop calling you old!

but anyway, can you guys spin this off to its own thread or something? It’s time to get this thing back on the rails. 

[Derrico]

3 minutes ago, shrader said:

Just like so many other deals like this, you can’t really give it a final grade. Buffalo gets he best player today and the Ducks get two different rolls of he dice. We don’t know how those two will pan out. He’ll, we don’t even know if the Ducks will keep either. 

Yep.  Fair point.  I like this calculated move though. This team is crapping away core years of eichel, Reinhart et al.  A shake up had to come and I can't think of taking a better shot than a 24 year old top 4 rhd.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Derrico

[shrader]

1 minute ago, Derrico said:

Yep.  Fair point.  I like this calculated move though. This team is crapping away core years of eichel, Reinhart et al.  A shake up had to come and I can't think of taking a better shot than a 24 year old top 4 rhd.

I’m good too. I think they’re better today and next year than they were before this deal. It’s also a far more calculated move than the previous trade in question earlier here because Montour’s under their control a bit longer, depending on what that next contract is. 

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Wow.  I'm usually right in sink with most of your points but completely disagree on Montour being close to Beaulieu level.  Beaulieu was being benched by Montreal in the playoffs prior to acquisition.  The third round price tag reflects that.  Montour with a bit of a down year but seems to have enormous upside based on everything I've read.  Admittedly I haven't seen him play much.  Again, a vastly greater acquisition cost was needed.  If he's close to Beaulieu level then jbotts should be gone.

Exaggeration for effect.

Montour is much better than Beaulieu. But they are both talented mobile D who fell out of favour with their organizations despite putting up a 30ish point season in their early 20s.

I like the idea of this trade, but Montour needs to be better than he is right now. He needs to justify the price JBot paid.

Beaulieu proved Montreal right. They easily won the trade even though everyone thought a 3rd rounder was peanuts. We can’t afford Botterill to make a similar mistake on this higher-magnitude trade and be dumping Montour for a third two years from now.

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by dudacek

[OhMyDahlin]

The lack of quality prospects on this team is scary.

They're going to need cheap talent once they extend Skinner, Dahlin, Reinhart, Mittelstadt, Montour, and whomever else they get.

People killed Murray for trading 1st round picks, now it's okay for Botterill to do it? And saying it's okay because it's in the 20's is an easy excuse, given some very good (some great) players have been found in the 20's in recent years. Shea Theodore, Anthony Mantha, Andre Burakovsky, David Pastrnak, Kasperi Kapanen, Nick Schmaltz, Robby Fabbri, Colin White, Brock Boeser, Travis Konecny, Anthony Beauvillier, Jack Roslovic, Jacob Larsson (who made Montour expendable in Anaheim), Dennis Cholowski, Henrik Borgstrom, Max Jones, Brett Howden, Sam Steel, Robert Thomas, Filip Chytil, Ryan Poehling, Henri Jokiharju, Eeli Tolvanen, Klim Kostin (who made Tage Thompson expendable in St. Louis), and it's a guarantee that some from the 2018 and 2019 drafts will join this list. (I would take any one of these players.)

I'm happy to get a decent RHD. I'm okay giving up Guhle to get a decent RHD. But I am not happy giving up a 1st round pick for a decent 2nd-3rd pairing RHD.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Dank Dangleson

[MODO Hockey]

Installing chillpill .......................................................... 97%

[shrader]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Exaggeration for effect.

Montour is much better than Beaulieu. But they are both talented mobile D who fell out of favour with their organizations despite putting up a 30ish point season in their early 20s.

I like the idea of this trade, but Montour needs to be better than he is right now.

Beaulieu proved Montreal right. They easily won the trade even though everyone thought a 3rd rounder was peanuts. We can’t afford Botterill to make a similar mistake on this higher-magnitude trade and be dumping Montour for a third two years from now.

 

Did they win it though if nothing ever becomes of that pick (currently in the WHL)? We always want to declare winners and losers, but it's also possible for their to be no winner. That said, yes, we did not get what we wanted. It wasn’t much of a price, but I’m with you on everything about not screwing up a bigger deal. 

[shrader]

4 minutes ago, Dank Dangleson said:

The lack of quality prospects on this team is scary.

They're going to need cheap talent once they extend Skinner, Dahlin, Reinhart, Mittelstadt, Montour, and whomever else they get.

People killed Murray for trading 1st round picks, now it's okay for Botterill to do it? And saying it's okay because it's in the 20's is an easy excuse, given some very good (some great) players have been found in the 20's in recent years. Shea Theodore, Anthony Mantha, Andre Burakovsky, David Pastrnak, Kasperi Kapanen, Nick Schmaltz, Robby Fabbri, Colin White, Brock Boeser, Travis Konecny, Anthony Beauvillier, Jack Roslovic, Jacob Larsson (who made Montour expendable in Anaheim), Dennis Cholowski, Henrik Borgstrom, Max Jones, Brett Howden, Sam Steel, Robert Thomas, Filip Chytil, Ryan Poehling, Henri Jokiharju, Eeli Tolvanen, Klim Kostin (who made Tage Thompson expendable in St. Louis), and it's a guarantee that some from the 2018 and 2019 drafts will join this list. (I would take any one of these players.)

I'm happy to get a decent RHD. I'm okay giving up Guhle to get a decent RHD. But I am not happy giving up a 1st round pick for a decent 2nd-3rd pairing RHD.

 

You're oversimplifying things when it comes to comparing one guy trading away two first round picks to another guy trading one. There’s the obvious difference in count right off the bat, but the biggest issue with Murray was specifically the Lehner deal. Other equally qualified goalies were being moved at the same time for a smaller price. I don’t remember the specific health of each of them, but Lehner also had the concussion cloud hovering over him at the time. Murray overpaid for one of “his guys” and that was the general consensus at the time. 

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, shrader said:

Did they win it though if nothing ever becomes of that pick (currently in the WHL)? We always want to declare winners and losers, but it's also possible for their to be no winner. That said, yes, we did not get what we wanted. It wasn’t much of a price, but I’m with you on everything about not screwing up a bigger deal. 

Montreal got a third for a player they didn’t want any more.

Buffalo got a sixth plus 80 or 90 games of replacement level play.

I agree there is an over emphasis on winning and losing trades, but even if Buffalo says ‘it was worth a shot,’ they probably would rather have the third. Montreal does that trade again in a second.

[Weave]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

For what it’s worth, I think it’s easy to read tone into the written word based on past experience even when it may not be there.

****

To the point, I am really intrigued to see if Montour can emerge into a Brian Campbell level puck mover.

At the moment he’s closer to where Beaulieu was when we acquired him than most here would like to admit.

The Ducks know D and decided to move on. Why?

I’ve read some stuff about Botterill’s asset management today that strikes me as petty. I’m far more concerned about his player judgement at the NHL level.

Hes targeted guys like Sheary and Berglund and Beaulieu and his whole first free agent class who seemed to be value pickups but have greatly disappointed on the ice.

I need to see a win here.

Amen to this.

[Derrico]

26 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Montreal got a third for a player they didn’t want any more.

Buffalo got a sixth plus 80 or 90 games of replacement level play.

I agree there is an over emphasis on winning and losing trades, but even if Buffalo says ‘it was worth a shot,’ they probably would rather have the third. Montreal does that trade again in a second.

Agreed but I'm still not going to get too worked up over losing a third round pick.  In fact, give me another upside guy similar to Beulieu and I also make that trade again all day.  Didn't work out in this instance but I'm still not upset by taking a low risk chance.

This Montour deal is a whole other thing.  You're right in they need to start hitting on some trades.  They gave up way more than the Beulieu trade and this will really set the Sabres back if botts is wrong.  If he's right then we have may have a legit top 4 and really top 6.  Probably the best on paper we've had in forever.  Need the on paper to translate to wins and losses though. 

[LGR4GM]

Giving up a 1st is always risky. I was really annoyed hearing talking heads speak about the drop off at 20 in this draft. That's not how it works. That said, it's a fair price impo.

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Derrico said:

Wow.  I'm usually right in sink with most of your points but completely disagree on Montour being close to Beaulieu level.  Beaulieu was being benched by Montreal in the playoffs prior to acquisition.  The third round price tag reflects that.  Montour with a bit of a down year but seems to have enormous upside based on everything I've read.  Admittedly I haven't seen him play much.  Again, a vastly greater acquisition cost was needed.  If he's close to Beaulieu level then jbotts should be gone.

In one of these?

 

[DarthEbriate]

11 hours ago, klos1963 said:

Pilut, we were talking about.

Whoops. Well, I have been known to make mistakes. From time to time. Dear, oh dear.

[Kruppstahl]

2 hours ago, Dank Dangleson said:

The lack of quality prospects on this team is scary.

They're going to need cheap talent once they extend Skinner, Dahlin, Reinhart, Mittelstadt, Montour, and whomever else they get.

People killed Murray for trading 1st round picks, now it's okay for Botterill to do it? And saying it's okay because it's in the 20's is an easy excuse, given some very good (some great) players have been found in the 20's in recent years. Shea Theodore, Anthony Mantha, Andre Burakovsky, David Pastrnak, Kasperi Kapanen, Nick Schmaltz, Robby Fabbri, Colin White, Brock Boeser, Travis Konecny, Anthony Beauvillier, Jack Roslovic, Jacob Larsson (who made Montour expendable in Anaheim), Dennis Cholowski, Henrik Borgstrom, Max Jones, Brett Howden, Sam Steel, Robert Thomas, Filip Chytil, Ryan Poehling, Henri Jokiharju, Eeli Tolvanen, Klim Kostin (who made Tage Thompson expendable in St. Louis), and it's a guarantee that some from the 2018 and 2019 drafts will join this list. (I would take any one of these players.)

I'm happy to get a decent RHD. I'm okay giving up Guhle to get a decent RHD. But I am not happy giving up a 1st round pick for a decent 2nd-3rd pairing RHD.

I don't really like this trade either, but that's mostly b/c I'm not a huge fan of Montour.  

We can debate his pros and cons all day long, but he's nothing close to a difference maker and this team needs a whole bunch of those.  Montour is fast and likes the North/South game, but he is a nightmare in his own end with advanced stats that remind me of Risto.

We were never going to get an important piece at this particular trade deadline, so maybe it's no big deal.  But it's important to keep our eyes on the prize, meaning, 3 or 4 significant pieces coming inbound not currently here.

Well, at least if this team is ever going to live up to hope and expectations for close to a decade now.

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Quote

 

Buffalo Sabres

Projected Division Finish: Fifth

Deadline Grade: A-minus

What GM Jason Botterill pulled off at this trade deadline is not an easy thing. With his team outside the playoff bubble and frankly not likely to push aside two of Carolina, Montreal, Pittsburgh and Columbus to get to the tournament, he still managed to add a player in Brandon Montour who should have an immediate impact but also slots in well for what looks to be a bright future for the youthful Sabres. Botterill sent a first-round pick to Anaheim, but that pick was formerly owned by either San Jose or St. Louis — two playoff-bound teams, so no danger of it turning into a lottery pick. And prospect Brendan Guhle was surpassed on the team’s organizational depth chart so he was in some ways expendable. In Montour they add a 24-year-old right-handed shot defenseman who will likely get a chance to play with franchise defenseman Rasmus Dahlin. Montour skates well, can move the puck and, playing on a much more up-tempo team than in Anaheim, should be a nice fit. The best part is he has one more year before reaching restricted free agency so Botterill has a chance to make Montour part of the team’s top-four on the blue line for the foreseeable future. Even if the Sabres fall short this spring, the message sent to the dressing room is positive and that, too, is important for the team’s evolving identity. Longtime NHL netminder and analyst Martin Biron acknowledged he was surprised at the move but feels the addition of Montour might allow Botterill to look at moving another right-hand defender like Rasmus Ristolainen or Zach Bogosian to help bolster the team’s top-heavy offense. In a depth move, the Sabres did trade left-handed shot defenseman Nathan Beaulieu late in the day to Winnipeg for a sixth-round pick in 2019.

 

From the Athletic

https://theathletic.com/838001/2019/02/25/nhl-trade-deadline-grades-projecting-where-all-31-teams-will-finish-the-season/

Move Bogo this summer?  From his lips to G-d's ears.