GDT: Winnipeg Jets @ Buffalo Sabres. 10 February 2019 @ 3:00 PM EST

[North Buffalo]

another back door mistake turns game. Two D on same side, lazy Jack not  covering..  no attention to detail ?

[...]

 

[That Aud Smell]

sat about 12 rows up for this one. my main takeaway: holy sh1t is WPG big. and fast. mostly i was struck by how big they are. seemed that way, anyway. i can't look to confirm as much right now. i was praying at times for guys like E-Rod and Sheary.

The Jets are a wagon, as the saying goes.

[CallawaySabres]

Really too bad they could not get a point out of this game as I think it was one of the best efforts they have given all season...I did not get to watch the 3rd period though.

[...]

They hung with a big, tough, fast team.  It was going well, even at 1-1.  They slacked off for 10 seconds and all of that effort went out of the window.  I think people would have accepted a loser point, but the brain fart/poor coverage/slop/slackery during that play is unacceptable - it's what has plagued this team all season.

[jsb]

Re-watching that Wheeler goal, 3 things went wrong, 

1. Refs obviously missed the pick play on Okposo
2. Dahlin did not stay with Wheeler
3. Dahlin got nutmegged for the 2nd time and the results were 2 goals scored.

Course of action on #3, Swedes obviously have little testicles, need bigger cups or possible short stop training in the summertime.

[That Aud Smell]

53 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

Really too bad they could not get a point out of this game as I think it was one of the best efforts they have given all season...I did not get to watch the 3rd period though.

They really did deserve better. But, hey - that's sport for you.

46 minutes ago, ... said:

They hung with a big, tough, fast team.  It was going well, even at 1-1.  They slacked off for 10 seconds and all of that effort went out of the window.  I think people would have accepted a loser point, but the brain fart/poor coverage/slop/slackery during that play is unacceptable - it's what has plagued this team all season.

There were some missed assignments on that GWG.

OTOH,

13 minutes ago, jsb said:

Re-watching that Wheeler goal, 3 things went wrong, 

1. Refs obviously missed the pick play on Okposo
2. Dahlin did not stay with Wheeler
3. Dahlin got nutmegged for the 2nd time and the results were 2 goals scored.

Course of action on #3, Swedes obviously have little testicles, need bigger cups or possible short stop training in the summertime.

We saw the pick clear as day from our seats. The refs called plenty in the Sabres' favour, but they were being boo'd a lot in the arena and for good cause. They had a bad day.

I know a lot of people are down on Eichel for the GWG, but, from what I understand, that player/play is generally Dahlin's responsibility.

[Wyldnwoody44]

[Sabres Fan in NS]

3 hours ago, ... said:

 

For a second there I thought I was watching that Ovi clip.

Eich had his controller disconnected there. He may not have been able to get to Wheeler  but he clearly didn't try to.

[erickompositör72]

Eichel did look like he got caught puck-watching, and Dahlin's youth/inexperience showed.

However, for the next few years, Dahlin and Eichel are going to be getting better and better (with Dahlin having a trajectory of being scary good)

In a year or two, we win this game most of the time. I think we all forget that overall, the team is on par with expectations for this season.

[darksabre]

I actually don't have a problem with Eichel on that goal. There were Winnipeg players up high still and those guys are his and Skinner's responsibility.

Eichel was also in a good position to pick up 44 if he managed to get around Okposo and cut to the middle.

The player who screwed up was Dahlin, who needed recognize that Okposo and Eichel had everything taken care of and to take care of his man around the net. Instead he's watching shooter and screening his own goalie to boot while letting his man totally get open.

[That Aud Smell]

11 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

I think we all forget that overall, the team is on par with expectations for this season.

Overall, they are. I agree. I saw them as a bubble team that would not make the playoffs. 

It makes me antsy that, outside of the win streak, they've been playing bottom-5 hockey. But I suppose that's why there are 82 games -- sample size and all.

5 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I actually don't have a problem with Eichel on that goal. There were Winnipeg players up high still and those guys are his and Skinner's responsibility.

Eichel was also in a good position to pick up 44 if he managed to get around Okposo and cut to the middle.

The player who screwed up was Dahlin, who needed recognize that Okposo and Eichel had everything taken care of and to take care of his man around the net. Instead he's watching shooter and screening his own goalie to boot while letting his man totally get open.

When I re-watched and listened to some learning from others, I came to the same conclusion. Eichel is made to look bad, but that was Dahlin's responsibility.

[Stoner]

3 hours ago, erickompositör72 said:

Eichel did look like he got caught puck-watching, and Dahlin's youth/inexperience showed.

However, for the next few years, Dahlin and Eichel are going to be getting better and better (with Dahlin having a trajectory of being scary good)

In a year or two, we win this game most of the time. I think we all forget that overall, the team is on par with expectations for this season.

Jack's buddy Mark Scheifele said Jack has only scratched the surface so far in his NHL career, almost four full seasons in. I'd really love to know what Deep Eichel looks like.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

Jack's buddy Mark Scheifele said Jack has only scratched the surface so far in his NHL career, almost four full seasons in. I'd really love to know what Deep Eichel looks like.

This means something, coming from a guy like Scheifele. 

He would know, he had 49 points in 82 games his 4th NHL season post draft. And look at him now. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Thorny

[Stoner]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This means something, coming from a guy like Scheifele. 

He would know, he had 49 points in 82 games his 4th NHL season post draft. And look at him now. 

Are you and Mark suggesting Jack is a long-term project of some sort? I'm genuinely curious what people think Jack's ceiling is. I'm of a mind that Jack is just about Jack.

[darksabre]

27 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Are you and Mark suggesting Jack is a long-term project of some sort? I'm genuinely curious what people think Jack's ceiling is. I'm of a mind that Jack is just about Jack.

It's distinctly possible that Jack isn't at his peak as far as strength goes. Look at Risto. This is his first season of really being a physical monster.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

Are you and Mark suggesting Jack is a long-term project of some sort? I'm genuinely curious what people think Jack's ceiling is. I'm of a mind that Jack is just about Jack.

Not at all. I'm suggesting that just because a player is so talented that they are able to be quite a good player early in their career doesn't mean they stop developing at the young age of 22. Players can and do keep getting better at his age. The player he is at 25 will be vastly superior to this season's Jack Eichel.

Recent stretch aside, before his injury how much better did Jack look this year as opposed to last? He was a legitimate MVP candidate. He's still pacing for 90 points this season over 79 games (was up over 100 before his injury), after pacing in the high-70s last season. The development he underwent just from last season to this one is notable. So I don't see at all why Jack is necessarily "just about Jack".

Scheifele was a 7th overall pick. I wouldn't call him a project, and the player he is today is a testament to the idea that players continue developing. Or look at Mackinnon, how much he's grown as a player recently. I see no reason why Jack wouldn't be cut from the same mold. 

To answer your question, Jack's absolute ceiling remains "best player in the NHL'. It is definitely within his range to go out there and win an Art Ross, a Hart, a Conn Smythe, or whatever you want in any given season. I'm not saying he'll get into the best-in-the-world conversation, or even that it's particularly likely, especially in a league with Connor McDavid, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that he puts together a couple consecutive seasons where he's hitting those milestones and is therefore deserving of being in it. Kane found himself in those conversations earlier in his career (and he's enjoying more Hart conversation this season), I don't see why that wouldn't be within Eichel's range, when trying to determine what his utmost ceiling is.

Jonathan Toews was being argued as the best player in the world, by a non-negligible amount of people, for significant amount of time. Jack can't be as good as Toews? Come on. A huge part of it is team success. If Botterill surrounds Jack with a ton of talent and we win a couple cups, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Jack's being considered among the very best. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorner]

36 minutes ago, darksabre said:

It's distinctly possible that Jack isn't at his peak as far as strength goes. Look at Risto. This is his first season of really being a physical monster.

Aside from just the physical, there is a perception that Jack doesn't have the best hockey sense.

I would postulate a theory that, if that is indeed the case, pure experience and repetition is going to drill into his head a muscle memory, over time, that's going to lead to better decision making. He's going to read and react to things better as time goes on, the more he sees them, if he is somehow indeed lacking some sort of extra natural instinct that others may or may not possess. 

Jack is a hard worker, and he cares about his game and his team. He's going to continue getting better for a good while. 

---

The only guys to my recollection that I've personally seen come in, and show they were truly the best in the business within the first year or two they played, were Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid. Both led the league in scoring and won the Hart year two. Even Sid has improved vastly since that time, and I suspect Connor will too. But you could look at those guys nearly immediately and say "That guy is the best".

I hesitate to even use the term "generational" in their case. We are talking a guy in the conversation for greatest of all-time, and a guy who nearly undoubtedly will be in that same convo. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Thorny

[...]

It's the same reason businesses would rather hire older workers if it weren't for the pay scale.  The experience means something.  This team is still very young and there is a ton of room for improvement in just experience alone.  We just need to see some of that some times.

Schopp and Bulldog had a good conversation today where Bulldog was saying that if the 10 game streak wins were spread out from the beginning of the season until now, we'd all be pretty happy with the progress.  Although context means a lot in terms of how the wins come, and the games lost are lost, it's not a bad point.

As I've said before, if Skinner signs here, then we can be assured the team is on the right track with their internal metrics.  There's also another non-obvious sign of being on the right track I thought of earlier today but can't remember what that is.  I'll think of it...

Edited February 12, 2019 by ...

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Not at all. I'm suggesting that just because a player is so talented that they are able to be quite a good player early in their career doesn't mean they stop developing at the young age of 22. Players can and do keep getting better at his age. The player he is at 25 will be vastly superior to this season's Jack Eichel.

Recent stretch aside, before his injury how much better did Jack look this year as opposed to last? He was a legitimate MVP candidate. He's still pacing for 90 points this season over 79 games (was up over 100 before his injury), after pacing in the high-70s last season. The development he underwent just from last season to this one is notable. So I don't see at all why Jack is necessarily "just about Jack".

Scheifele was a 7th overall pick. I wouldn't call him a project, and the player he is today is a testament to the idea that players continue developing. Or look at Mackinnon, how much he's grown as a player recently. I see no reason why Jack wouldn't be cut from the same mold. 

To answer your question, Jack's absolute ceiling remains "best player in the NHL'. It is definitely within his range to go out there and win an Art Ross, a Hart, a Conn Smythe, or whatever you want in any given season. I'm not saying he'll get into the best-in-the-world conversation, or even that it's particularly likely, especially in a league with Connor McDavid, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that he puts together a couple consecutive seasons where he's hitting those milestones and is therefore deserving of being in it. Kane found himself in those conversations earlier in his career (and he's enjoying more Hart conversation this season), I don't see why that wouldn't be within Eichel's range, when trying to determine what his utmost ceiling is.

Jonathan Toews was being argued as the best player in the world, by a non-negligible amount of people, for significant amount of time. Jack can't be as good as Toews? Come on. A huge part of it is team success. If Botterill surrounds Jack with a ton of talent and we win a couple cups, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Jack's being considered among the very best. 

How will Jack do all this? Where can he improve? He's already a tremendous skater and an elite set-up man. His defensive play has improved a lot since his rookie season. How much more can he do there? Will he kill penalties and score shorthanded goals? He has a solid hockey engine, he's grown up and he obviously cares a lot. Areas to improve: his shot, scoring big goals in big moments, being more consistent.

I like your optimism, but I don't see as much room to grow. But maybe you can convince me by putting a little meat on the bone, beyond blind predictions of hardware.

[Ducky]

21 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said:

Ovi can score but defensively he’s possibly the laziest guy I’ve ever seen. 

Have you watched much of Laine this year?

[SABRES 0311]

1 hour ago, Ducky said:

Have you watched much of Laine this year?

Not really. Ovechkun has stuck out to me for some time.

[That Aud Smell]

A post script on Dahlin's rough game against WPG.

 

 

[That Aud Smell]

9 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

How will Jack do all this?

He will if he can. He won't if he can't.

I'm not trying to be overly Yoda about the matter. But that's all it is.

My money is on him improving in a few significant ways and becoming a top player in the league during his prime. I'm just hoping that the franchise doesn't squander that prime by not surrounding him with a solid supporting cast.

[SABRES 0311]

6 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

He will if he can. He won't if he can't.

I'm not trying to be overly Yoda about the matter. But that's all it is.

My money is on him improving in a few significant ways and becoming a top player in the league during his prime. I'm just hoping that the franchise doesn't squander that prime by not surrounding him with a solid supporting cast.

I think Jack needs a mentor even though he’s the Captain. Someone to guide him on leading other men in what they will go through in the next few years. There has to be a team out there trying to get younger who would part ways with say a middle six guy. Preferably someone who can play on his wing. Maybe Pommers was supposed to be that guy.