Phil Housley should be fired.

[Kruppstahl]

Just listening to Housley's post-game PC now.  He has been very careful the last couple games to stress that "effort" has been there but things just aren't going our way.  He's trying to frame things in terms of bad puck luck or that sort of thing, which is misleading.

I think he definitely feels the heat and is trying to stress that it's not an effort problem, b/c an effort problem is ultimately a coaching problem.

This will all get worse before it gets better.

 

 

 

 

[SwampD]

4 hours ago, Eleven said:

Which brings me back to 2009.

With whom are you going to replace him?  (And it's not going to be Quenneville, and he's not that great anyway.)

Revolving door.   

It revolves.  The Sabres fire and hire and fire and hire.

The roster is the problem.

 

 

Are you still on about Lindey? Only in Buffalo is 16 years not long enough to prove oneself.

[TrueBlueGED]

13 hours ago, ... said:

80% of the conversations on this site are "whataboutism".  This one is no less valid.

If Phil and the coaching staff are making decisions based on flawed data and analysis then that fills in a lot of holes.

Alternately, if Phil is getting accurate data and analysis, does he grasp it all or does it make his head spin?  If so, then that fills a lot of holes, too.

I think this might be slightly more important of an issue than it seems.

I've definitely been wondering for awhile about the quality of that work that Nightengale and crew do. It's impossible to know, of course, but the team has regularly made decisions that cut against the publicly available data, and it's a trend that spans 3 GMs and...5 coaches? It's impossible to really assess without knowing the internal decision making dynamics, but it's definitely worth thinking about. 

[Jacque Richard]

He has a young team that will be the excuse here. 

[...]

The third period collapse - who is responsible for that?  People were in the GDT last night giving Phil praise for what must have been a great speech inbetween the 1st and 2nd periods because they looked good in the second, not dominate, but good. 

Last night it was my impression Phil was one question away from blowing a gasket during the post game.  The look on his face is not unlike the one we've seen on Bylsma, Nolan, Rolston and Ruff at this point in seasons past.  They all seem to be experiencing the same thing.  

I will say, of all of those coaches, Phil has the best system by a long shot.  

These players, though, they've "quit" on each one of these coaches.  Each one has had to deal with effort issues and a lack of focus, mental processing errors.  There is no new story here.

My wife and I got a puppy together when we first married.  That puppy turned into the perfect dog - I could walk her among people without a leash with 100% trust that she would listen.  We lived near a park and she would run and play as hard as any dog but you could stop her on a dime with a command.  Awesome dog.  Got her from an amateur breeder.

So, we decided to get a second dog when the first one started getting on in years to keep her company.  This puppy was a rescue from the SPCA (he was abused at 1 month).  He has behavior issues that we hoped training and being around awesome dog would fix.

Well, dog 2 is a great person dog, but a horrible walker and I don't trust him off leash.  I loved walking awesome dog, but dog 2 has become a walker's challenge.

Awesome dog dies.

We get another dog eventually as a companion to dog 2.  Not an abuse rescue, but a puppy from the SPCA none-the-less.  Long story short:  she has adopted the exact behaviors dog 2 has on walks but has put her own spin on them.  Now, walking my dogs is a chore because I always need to concern myself with them rather than be able to trust them to "do the right thing" on our walks.

My conclusion is that both will have to pass on before we get another dog because otherwise each dog will pass unwanted behaviors down the chain.

This is how I see the Sabres at this point.  The chain was tainted somewhere.  Somewhere something has crept into the entire Sabres culture and spoiled it in some manner.

But I don't think it's the coach this time.  

They need someone to identify behaviors and thoughts that lead to these collapses, lead to dropping success once they pick it up.  Can that be a coach, too?  Maybe, but what coach can really teach hockey, personal development, and actually run a successful system, manage players in-game, and have the wisdom to make calls on the fly when necessary?  And accomplish all of this while still motivating the team and not offending them or turning them off?  That there would be one accomplished person.

 

 

[Gatorman0519]

36 minutes ago, ... said:

The third period collapse - who is responsible for that?  People were in the GDT last night giving Phil praise for what must have been a great speech inbetween the 1st and 2nd periods because they looked good in the second, not dominate, but good. 

Last night it was my impression Phil was one question away from blowing a gasket during the post game.  The look on his face is not unlike the one we've seen on Bylsma, Nolan, Rolston and Ruff at this point in seasons past.  They all seem to be experiencing the same thing.  

I will say, of all of those coaches, Phil has the best system by a long shot.  

These players, though, they've "quit" on each one of these coaches.  Each one has had to deal with effort issues and a lack of focus, mental processing errors.  There is no new story here.

My wife and I got a puppy together when we first married.  That puppy turned into the perfect dog - I could walk her among people without a leash with 100% trust that she would listen.  We lived near a park and she would run and play as hard as any dog but you could stop her on a dime with a command.  Awesome dog.  Got her from an amateur breeder.

So, we decided to get a second dog when the first one started getting on in years to keep her company.  This puppy was a rescue from the SPCA (he was abused at 1 month).  He has behavior issues that we hoped training and being around awesome dog would fix.

Well, dog 2 is a great person dog, but a horrible walker and I don't trust him off leash.  I loved walking awesome dog, but dog 2 has become a walker's challenge.

Awesome dog dies.

We get another dog eventually as a companion to dog 2.  Not an abuse rescue, but a puppy from the SPCA none-the-less.  Long story short:  she has adopted the exact behaviors dog 2 has on walks but has put her own spin on them.  Now, walking my dogs is a chore because I always need to concern myself with them rather than be able to trust them to "do the right thing" on our walks.

My conclusion is that both will have to pass on before we get another dog because otherwise each dog will pass unwanted behaviors down the chain.

This is how I see the Sabres at this point.  The chain was tainted somewhere.  Somewhere something has crept into the entire Sabres culture and spoiled it in some manner.

But I don't think it's the coach this time.  

They need someone to identify behaviors and thoughts that lead to these collapses, lead to dropping success once they pick it up.  Can that be a coach, too?  Maybe, but what coach can really teach hockey, personal development, and actually run a successful system, manage players in-game, and have the wisdom to make calls on the fly when necessary?  And accomplish all of this while still motivating the team and not offending them or turning them off?  That there would be one accomplished person.

 

 

You may be on to something 

[LGR4GM]

There is not accountability. There are not consequences for actions unless you count Bealieu going to the dog house for wanting to play more. Every single other player gets free passes constantly. Scandella, Risto, Eichel, even Dahlin. There's just no line of unacceptable that is established and has actual consequences when crossed. It's just all "good effort and some bad bounces" cliche. 

[Samson's Flow]

2 hours ago, ... said:

My wife and I got a puppy together when we first married.  That puppy turned into the perfect dog - I could walk her among people without a leash with 100% trust that she would listen.  We lived near a park and she would run and play as hard as any dog but you could stop her on a dime with a command.  Awesome dog.  Got her from an amateur breeder.

<snip>

They need someone to identify behaviors and thoughts that lead to these collapses, lead to dropping success once they pick it up.  Can that be a coach, too?  Maybe, but what coach can really teach hockey, personal development, and actually run a successful system, manage players in-game, and have the wisdom to make calls on the fly when necessary?  And accomplish all of this while still motivating the team and not offending them or turning them off?  That there would be one accomplished person.

 

 

As someone who was lucky enough to get one of those "perfect dogs" as well - walking without a leash, hanging out in the front yard without fear of running away/into street, I can say that the same 'learned behaviors' happened when she spent time with my dads less behaved dogs. She learned to bark at everything by adopting their behavior, and now it is incredibly tough to get her to unlearn those bad behaviors.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sabres have learned the wrong way to be a pro, and the young players don't know any better. It's going to be tough to unlearn any bad habits they have picked up. Vegas' instant success has a lot to do with starting from scratch and instilling good habits right away.

[SDS]

1 minute ago, Samson's Flow said:

As someone who was lucky enough to get one of those "perfect dogs" as well - walking without a leash, hanging out in the front yard without fear of running away/into street, I can say that the same 'learned behaviors' happened when she spent time with my dads less behaved dogs. She learned to bark at everything by adopting their behavior, and now it is incredibly tough to get her to unlearn those bad behaviors.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sabres have learned the wrong way to be a pro, and the young players don't know any better. It's going to be tough to unlearn any bad habits they have picked up. Vegas' instant success has a lot to do with starting from scratch and instilling good habits right away.

Your last two sentences are in complete contradiction of one another.

[Carmel Corn]

9 minutes ago, Samson's Flow said:

As someone who was lucky enough to get one of those "perfect dogs" as well - walking without a leash, hanging out in the front yard without fear of running away/into street, I can say that the same 'learned behaviors' happened when she spent time with my dads less behaved dogs. She learned to bark at everything by adopting their behavior, and now it is incredibly tough to get her to unlearn those bad behaviors.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sabres have learned the wrong way to be a pro, and the young players don't know any better. It's going to be tough to unlearn any bad habits they have picked up. Vegas' instant success has a lot to do with starting from scratch and instilling good habits right away.

Tough challenge indeed for this current squad.  I always felt there needs to be a 'critical mass' of new vs. old thinking in order to change the old thinking.  It's not done with just one player or even a new captain.  Also, it is a rather awkward situation in that our anointed captain is maybe not the ideal person to lead the 'unlearning' process.

Change can maybe start with one person, but it will quickly die unless others visibly buy-in and infect the others with the same attitude.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Carmel Corn

[LTS]

21 hours ago, Eleven said:

Don't rule out that Jack might be playing at less than 100%.

Wilfully or through an actual ailment?  The only reason I would say that is that I've seen him engage at times and other times he's just not doing it.

13 hours ago, SwampD said:

I guess the question is, why shouldn’t he be fired.

Because the roster just isn't good enough and it's extremely young.

12 hours ago, Jacque Richard said:

Boston got rid of their coach Claude julien. Only the Sabres will keep housley. It’s not happening with Phil. 

They got rid of Claude Julien after 10 years. There's a minor difference in what you are suggesting.

11 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I said something similar in the GDT, but I think if we’re not past the point of no return, we are really getting close.  

The team looks completely lost.  This can’t be how it is every night for the rest of the season.  

This will be how it is for the rest of the season unless they learn to play with confidence. They are lost because they lack that confidence. Things are not working for them and they don't have the answers. 

10 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

Then maybe the people who compiled the roster need to go.

Housley should be replaced, but I agree he is not the sole problem, or even that his replacement will improve.

He still needs to go however.  He's not a very good HC.

 

 

The people who compiled a large part of this roster are gone. There are a lot of aspects of this roster that are still there as a result of front office screw ups prior to the existing front office team.

Every time you change, you reset the clock. Especially if there's no established base to work from.  The Sabres are on a path. It just takes time.  No fan wants to hear it, but that doesn't make it any less applicable.

 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

There is not accountability. There are not consequences for actions unless you count Bealieu going to the dog house for wanting to play more. Every single other player gets free passes constantly. Scandella, Risto, Eichel, even Dahlin. There's just no line of unacceptable that is established and has actual consequences when crossed. It's just all "good effort and some bad bounces" cliche. 

Agree.   The few times he sat players (Tage comes to mind) they responded.  All teams carry extra forwards and defense.  Any player that does not put the best effort AND learn from mistakes should sit. 

 

Players that don't like this - Berglund - can leave.

Players that want to play - Beaulieu - should not be punished, although maybe he should have kept that out of the press.   

[Eleven]

9 hours ago, SwampD said:

Are you still on about Lindey? Only in Buffalo is 16 years not long enough to prove oneself.

I'm just pointing out that if the Sabres fire Housley, we will be seeing a "___________ Should Be Fired" thread around this time in 2021, because just as in 2009 when the calls for Ruff's head came, no one has any realistic idea of a good replacement. 

 

 

 

 

(And Ruff proved himself.)

[Samson's Flow]

31 minutes ago, SDS said:

Your last two sentences are in complete contradiction of one another.

Re-reading I phrased that poorly. The intent was that the expansion Vegas didn't have the existing "this is my team" guys, so they had the opportunity to integrate many team's "best practices" in establishing a new team culture.

Any new veteran voices added to the Sabres have to overcome the existing culture from the franchise guys like Jack & Risto who have been here a while. 

31 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

Tough challenge indeed for this current squad.  I always felt there needs to be a 'critical mass' of new vs. old thinking in order to change the old thinking.  It's not done with just one player or even a new captain.  Also, it is a rather awkward situation in that our anointed captain is maybe not the ideal person to lead the 'unlearning' process.

Change can maybe start with one person, but it will quickly die unless others visibly buy-in and infect the others with the same attitude.

I don't want to say ROR, but I have a feeling that is what the locker room "issues" boiled down to.

[Samson's Flow]

10 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Agree.   The few times he sat players (Tage comes to mind) they responded.  All teams carry extra forwards and defense.  Any player that does not put the best effort AND learn from mistakes should sit. 

 

Players that don't like this - Berglund - can leave.

Players that want to play - Beaulieu - should not be punished, although maybe he should have kept that out of the press.   

That's easier to do with complementary players, it's much harder to do when it's Jack Eichel. 

[Pimlach]

1 minute ago, Samson's Flow said:

That's easier to do with complementary players, it's much harder to do when it's Jack Eichel. 

True, If you have to sit players like Eichel, Skinner, Dahlin and Risto then you really have problems.  As a coach you are in trouble. 

Easier to fire the coach than to trade everybody.   

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, LTS said:

Wilfully or through an actual ailment?  The only reason I would say that is that I've seen him engage at times and other times he's just not doing it.

Ailment.

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

I'm just pointing out that if the Sabres fire Housley, we will be seeing a "___________ Should Be Fired" thread around this time in 2021, because just as in 2009 when the calls for Ruff's head came, no one has any realistic idea of a good replacement. 

 

 

 

 

(And Ruff proved himself.)

I agree. He did prove himself. He also needed to go.

And we've heard this "no good replacement" stuff (I won't use the N word) before. I can think of a long list of coaches that were "no good replacements" that actually were available when we needed a coach. I'd list them, but they have names that are hard to spell and they all seem to be ahead of us in the standings.

[Eleven]

Just now, SwampD said:

I agree. He did prove himself. He also needed to go.

And we've heard this "no good replacement" stuff (I won't use the N word) before. I can think of a long list of coaches that were "no good replacements" that actually were available when we needed a coach. I'd list them, but they have names that are hard to spell and they all seem to be ahead of us in the standings.

I'll just wait for the biennial thread in 2021 then.

[Sabel79]

 

[Samson's Flow]

18 minutes ago, Sabel79 said:

 

Thanks @Sabel79

I guess that's why this thread says should and not will.

[Scottysabres]

17 minutes ago, Sabel79 said:

 

He also said the players need to grow, mature and figure out how to win themselves.

He's pleased with the progression of competitiveness he's seen, the coaching staffs communication with the players.

He said they are working on bettering the roster long term and if no deals happen this week they will continue to work to that end over the coming months.

Skinner talks continue.

So in short, figure it out Jack & company, your on your own this season.

[Sabel79]

Not that I’d expect JBots to needlessly explain his master plan like a Bond villain, and there’s certainly a point to backing the coach in the media for the benefit of the players, but he can’t actually think everything’s fine with Phil.  I refuse to believe that.  Even giving him credit for the mess of a roster, there’s so much he could still be doing better.  Beyond frustrating.  

[Carmel Corn]

10 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

He also said the players need to grow, mature and figure out how to win themselves.

He's pleased with the progression of competitiveness he's seen, the coaching staffs communication with the players.

He said they are working on bettering the roster long term and if no deals happen this week they will continue to work to that end over the coming months.

Skinner talks continue.

So in short, figure it out Jack & company, your on your own this season.

So no Bob Corkum to the rescue?

[...]

21 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

He also said the players need to grow, mature and figure out how to win themselves.

He's pleased with the progression of competitiveness he's seen, the coaching staffs communication with the players.

He said they are working on bettering the roster long term and if no deals happen this week they will continue to work to that end over the coming months.

Skinner talks continue.

So in short, figure it out Jack & company, your on your own this season.

It's the tough love approach.