Phil Housley should be fired.

[Zamboni]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not. You're making it an argument between us when my mentioning him was only a small section of the larger overall point, which was that we do not have enough talent. 

Sam, as our top RW has 20 goals. You want to be the best, your top players have to be better than that. That's just Gourde on Tampa. Kucherov has 39 as his actual counterpart. Looking at the draft, Draisaitl has 47 on an equally crap team to us (and if you want to try the he plays with McDavid line, that was my argument for many of Sam's assists so don't bother).

So sure, defend Sam all you want to, but the fact is that drafting him was one of our big errors in rebuilding this team and he simply isn't as good as other top line players. On most teams he is second line at best, and his on again off again work ethic and defensive errors would probably get him benched on strict teams like Boston. he is not a star player, and if you view him as one, you've set the bar way too low. 

You can use the phrase “fact is” all you want, it doesn’t make your opinion any more factual. Your take on Sam is opinion driven, not fact based.

No one is arguing he’s a top line dominant player. So you can stop with the straw man.

And no one is “pinning hopes” on Reinhart to single handedly lead this team to the playoffs so you can stop with that strawman.

He does not have “work ethic” issues so you can stop with that strawman.

While he may never be that top-six center he was drafted as back in 2014, he has the ability to drive his own line as a winger in the NHL. He’s had a positive impact on a handful of players that have seen their numbers and scoring chances grow.

So while you want to close your eyes and cross your arms and remain obtuse about Reinharts impact, others are seeing his development and overall positive impact he has whenever he’s on the ice. 

And if you want to confuse and point to poor team play as an indication of Reinharts (or any one players) failure, that’s on you. It’s a team sport. 

Go to naturalstattrick.com and click around. Maybe what you find regarding different players will change your attitude about certain players you dislike. Because value goes well beyond pointzzzz.

His 62 points this season is a career high, while also making his linemates better. 

His CF% is above 51%. And in case you don’t know, That’s pretty damn good, especially for this current team.

His FF% is above 51%. And in case you don’t know, that’s pretty damn good, especially for this current team.

His SF% is above 51%. And in case you don’t know, that’s pretty damn good, especially on this team.

Just because he’s not speedy or flashy doesn’t make him less effective. If it doesn’t end up on the scoresheet, Some have a hard time seeing the little plays he makes, the great hockey IQ he has and the terrific passing he possesses.

No need to set up strawman false comments that are easily dismissed that no one is typing. 

Have your opinion, fine. But don’t trot it out as if it’s fact. Fact is, you seem to only see pointzzz and box scores when determining a players value to a team. But perhaps you are set in your ways and opinions and aren’t open to changing your view on players who don’t dipsy doodle and make sick deeks. I hope that’s not the case.

 

lastly, this is a Housley thread ... and he’s the main reason the team is doing poorly. Not one or two individual players. As much as some want to pin the success or failure on the shoulders of a couple individuals. The team as a whole is underperforming. Almost all season long. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Zamboni

[LGR4GM]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not. You're making it an argument between us when my mentioning him was only a small section of the larger overall point, which was that we do not have enough talent. 

Sam, as our top RW has 20 goals. You want to be the best, your top players have to be better than that. That's just Gourde on Tampa. Kucherov has 39 as his actual counterpart. Looking at the draft, Draisaitl has 47 on an equally crap team to us (and if you want to try the he plays with McDavid line, that was my argument for many of Sam's assists so don't bother).

So sure, defend Sam all you want to, but the fact is that drafting him was one of our big errors in rebuilding this team and he simply isn't as good as other top line players. On most teams he is second line at best, and his on again off again work ethic and defensive errors would probably get him benched on strict teams like Boston. he is not a star player, and if you view him as one, you've set the bar way too low. 

Draisaitl is better than Reinhart. Just like McDavid is better than Eichel. 

I wouldn't use Tampa as a comparison to anything unless I wanted to talk about the dominant team in the league. Tampa is the best bar none. Now we will see how that translates to the playoffs obviously, but in the regular season they are the top. 

Drafting Sam was not a big error. Drafting Brendan Lemiuex, now that was a big error. The entire 2nd round was an error. Reinhart could be better for sure but he's contributed to this team and has been one of the top 3 players they have had this year. 

 

As to the bold: I did bother, which is something that seems to have gone by the wayside on this board the last couple of months. Posters just saying crap with no desire or want to back up their statements. But thanks for letting me know I didn't have to bother even though I was curious to look anyways. 

Reinhart with Eichel: 983minutes, 70 goals for

Draisaitl with McDavid: 1132minutes, 117 goals for

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by LGR4GM

[Brawndo]

From Friedman’s 31 Thoughts.

[LGR4GM]

12 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

From Friedman’s 31 Thoughts.

If the only argument against doing it is that the we have had too many changes, that is no argument at all. 

[Die Hard]

If Botterill doesn’t want a coaching change.... then Botterill has to go too.

2 straight years of ‘unintentional’ tanks?

The first season they did nothing.... under the guise of ‘assessment.’ We basically just threw another year away for ‘locker room’ culture!!! I guess a good culture means being a good soldier.... being willing to accept losing gracefully and not questioning leadership.

First season, Housley insinuating the players didn’t show up in shape. This offseason, they build up relationships and showed up in good physical condition. And what’s that actually accomplished?

If Housley is back next season.... I will have lost complete faith in the Sabres/Pegulas.

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

If the only argument against doing it is that the we have had too many changes, that is no argument at all. 

I think the second paragraph sums up Botterill’s True Feelings. 

[Die Hard]

4 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

I think the second paragraph sums up Botterill’s True Feelings. 

It reads more like Friedman’s thoughts.

[Kruppstahl]

2 hours ago, Die Hard said:

If Botterill doesn’t want a coaching change.... then Botterill has to go too.

2 straight years of ‘unintentional’ tanks?

The first season they did nothing.... under the guise of ‘assessment.’ We basically just threw another year away for ‘locker room’ culture!!! I guess a good culture means being a good soldier.... being willing to accept losing gracefully and not questioning leadership.

First season, Housley insinuating the players didn’t show up in shape. This offseason, they build up relationships and showed up in good physical condition. And what’s that actually accomplished?

If Housley is back next season.... I will have lost complete faith in the Sabres/Pegulas.

Consider this:

In 2015/2016 we finished the season with 81 points.

The following year, 2016/2017, we had 78 points and GMTM and Bylsma were fired.

Last year we finished dead last with 62 points.

This year, we may well end up where we are now, at 72 points.  The best we can do is 78 points, the same we had when GMTM and Bylsma were fired.

I am not convinced that Botterill is safe, and I now fully expect Housley to be fired at season's end.

Does this franchise have the look and feel of one that is moving in the right direction? 

78 point was bad enough to fire the last GM and it might just be good enough to fire the current one too.

There hasn't been much talk about this b/c folks are mostly focused on Housley and the coaching situation.

Hang in there, and let's see what goes down next week.

 

 

 

[Die Hard]

7 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Consider this:

In 2015/2016 we finished the season with 81 points.

The following year, 2016/2017, we had 78 points and GMTM and Bylsma were fired.

Last year we finished dead last with 62 points.

This year, we may well end up where we are now, at 72 points.  The best we can do is 78 points, the same we had when GMTM and Bylsma were fired.

I am not convinced that Botterill is safe, and I now fully expect Housley to be fired at season's end.

Does this franchise have the look and feel of one that is moving in the right direction? 

78 point was bad enough to fire the last GM and it might just be good enough to fire the current one too.

There hasn't been much talk about this b/c folks are mostly focused on Housley and the coaching situation.

Hang in there, and let's see what goes down next week.

Botterill has had some swings and misses, for sure. But he’s also had some successes too. 

Turning around the Amerks, Skinner grade, you might even throw Montour in there.... but not giving credit for Dhalin.

I know Terry respects the hell out of him (former Penguin) and likes the constant communication. So I think that’s enough to keep him safe.

I could go either way... I’m inclined to keep him myself. 

But Housley is unemployable. It’s disgusting how bad this team has been. Total points, goal differential, 5-on-5, Power play, secondary scoring, goaltending, lack of win streaks, regulation wins, line combos, last line changes, last-minute first-minute goals against.

[Curt]

56 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Consider this:

In 2015/2016 we finished the season with 81 points.

The following year, 2016/2017, we had 78 points and GMTM and Bylsma were fired.

Last year we finished dead last with 62 points.

This year, we may well end up where we are now, at 72 points.  The best we can do is 78 points, the same we had when GMTM and Bylsma were fired.

I am not convinced that Botterill is safe, and I now fully expect Housley to be fired at season's end.

Does this franchise have the look and feel of one that is moving in the right direction? 

78 point was bad enough to fire the last GM and it might just be good enough to fire the current one too.

There hasn't been much talk about this b/c folks are mostly focused on Housley and the coaching situation.

Hang in there, and let's see what goes down next week.

 

 

 

My take/theory supported by only circumstancial evidence:

GMTM was hired by Pat Lafontaine, not Pegula, so that’s already one possible issue with a Pegula/Murray partnership.  Murray was going for a quick turnaround after drafting Eichel by trading for ROR and Kane, and signing Okposo, etc.  I think he was trying to push for the playoffs ASAP and was telling Pegula this.  After failing to deliver, Pegula gave Murray and Bylsma the heave-ho.

Pegula hired Botterill with the understanding that (1)Buffalo was not on the cusp of being a good team and (2)this was going to take some time.  Botterill has pursued a much different, more patient strategy involving building up Rochester and trying to develop internally.  I can only assume that Pegula knew this would be the path forward when he hired him.  The tangible W-L results of the past 2 seasons were never promised to be particularly good, so Botterill has a little slack with the boss there.

Murray failed to execute the plan he sold to Pegula.  Botterill is sort of successful executing the plan he sold to Pegula by building up Rochester and being patient.  The two probably aren’t being judged by the same criteria.  I’m sure the results have been below what was expected by Botterill and Pegula so there is probably some disappointment there.  You can only sell Pegula the future payoff for so long before you have to actually deliver, but I think Botterill is safe for now.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Curtisp5286

[Eleven]

40 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

Botterill has had some swings and misses, for sure. But he’s also had some successes too. 

Turning around the Amerks, Skinner grade, you might even throw Montour in there.... but not giving credit for Dhalin.

I know Terry respects the hell out of him (former Penguin) and likes the constant communication. So I think that’s enough to keep him safe.

I could go either way... I’m inclined to keep him myself. 

But Housley is unemployable. It’s disgusting how bad this team has been. Total points, goal differential, 5-on-5, Power play, secondary scoring, goaltending, lack of win streaks, regulation wins, line combos, last line changes, last-minute first-minute goals against.

I don't think that Terry Pegula cares whether Botterill worked for the Pens.

I do think Botterill has had some hits and misses, as you say.  I'm particularly optimistic on Montour.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Eleven

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Drafting Sam was not a big error. Drafting Brendan Lemiuex, now that was a big error. The entire 2nd round was an error. Reinhart could be better for sure but he's contributed to this team and has been one of the top 3 players they have had this year. 

 

The real difference we have here is when you add the word "big" to "error."  So we can dicker about big or little error, but it was an error.  

There is a long list of errors/mistakes that have been made (mostly by Murray but also maybe by JBot, time will tell on the latter) and they add up. Drafting Sam over Draisaitl is one of them. 

Kane trade - small error

ROR trade - BIG error

drafting Sam - small error

trading 1st for Lehner - big error

other smaller ones but that's enough to slow any rebuild (along with the lottery loss). They add up.

I'm not suggesting things are all Sam's fault by any means. He is what he is, but I think what that is is not what we wanted him to be when drafted and never will be. He's a solid second line forward. If you think we can win with him as a top 3 forward I think you are wrong. For me that means we are lacking in talent. If Sam is my 5th or 6th best forward I have a good team. Not before. 

[PerreaultForever]

I will add this, Housley's recent comments about how the team is still playing hard and the culture is good makes me think he should be fired though. Everyone can see this team has quit and is lifeless now. I've seen eliminated teams on rebuilds and they are playing spoiler with energy and enthusiasm. We have lost it. Lying to the media/fans about the obvious is just dumb or maybe even condescending. How stupid does he think Buffalo fans are?  

[rakish]

Housley isn't lying, he's just wrong. The Sabres have outshot the opponent 4 of the last 5 games (I got bored looking further than that). Corcateers earnestly believe they are playing very well.

It's a shooting percentage game.

[Curt]

58 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not suggesting things are all Sam's fault by any means. He is what he is, but I think what that is is not what we wanted him to be when drafted and never will be. He's a solid second line forward. If you think we can win with him as a top 3 forward I think you are wrong. For me that means we are lacking in talent. If Sam is my 5th or 6th best forward I have a good team. Not before. 

I think that Sam is just about as good as Nashville’s top forwards: Johansen, Forsberg, and Arvidsson.

Not that makes your wrong necessarily.  Nashville struggles with secondary scoring and has a terrible PP.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Curtisp5286

[eman]

18 hours ago, Zamboni said:

You can use the phrase “fact is” all you want, it doesn’t make your opinion any more factual. Your take on Sam is opinion driven, not fact based.

No one is arguing he’s a top line dominant player. So you can stop with the straw man.

And no one is “pinning hopes” on Reinhart to single handedly lead this team to the playoffs so you can stop with that strawman.

He does not have “work ethic” issues so you can stop with that strawman.

While he may never be that top-six center he was drafted as back in 2014, he has the ability to drive his own line as a winger in the NHL. He’s had a positive impact on a handful of players that have seen their numbers and scoring chances grow.

So while you want to close your eyes and cross your arms and remain obtuse about Reinharts impact, others are seeing his development and overall positive impact he has whenever he’s on the ice. 

And if you want to confuse and point to poor team play as an indication of Reinharts (or any one players) failure, that’s on you. It’s a team sport. 

Go to naturalstattrick.com and click around. Maybe what you find regarding different players will change your attitude about certain players you dislike. Because value goes well beyond pointzzzz.

His 62 points this season is a career high, while also making his linemates better. 

His CF% is above 51%. And in case you don’t know, That’s pretty damn good, especially for this current team.

His FF% is above 51%. And in case you don’t know, that’s pretty damn good, especially for this current team.

His SF% is above 51%. And in case you don’t know, that’s pretty damn good, especially on this team.

Just because he’s not speedy or flashy doesn’t make him less effective. If it doesn’t end up on the scoresheet, Some have a hard time seeing the little plays he makes, the great hockey IQ he has and the terrific passing he possesses.

No need to set up strawman false comments that are easily dismissed that no one is typing. 

Have your opinion, fine. But don’t trot it out as if it’s fact. Fact is, you seem to only see pointzzz and box scores when determining a players value to a team. But perhaps you are set in your ways and opinions and aren’t open to changing your view on players who don’t dipsy doodle and make sick deeks. I hope that’s not the case.

 

lastly, this is a Housley thread ... and he’s the main reason the team is doing poorly. Not one or two individual players. As much as some want to pin the success or failure on the shoulders of a couple individuals. The team as a whole is underperforming. Almost all season long. 

Also, he is one of the few Sabres who will go to the front of the net and actually try to screen the goalie or tip one in (and he is not a big guy) In fact, I wish he'd do it more often. Why Phil never tried putting Tage there for a bit (in front of the opposing goalie that is) is beyond me. At least use his size and reach for something. Garbage goals all count!

[Zamboni]

T-minus 2 ...

[apuszczalowski]

7 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

Consider this:

In 2015/2016 we finished the season with 81 points.

The following year, 2016/2017, we had 78 points and GMTM and Bylsma were fired.

Last year we finished dead last with 62 points.

This year, we may well end up where we are now, at 72 points.  The best we can do is 78 points, the same we had when GMTM and Bylsma were fired.

I am not convinced that Botterill is safe, and I now fully expect Housley to be fired at season's end.

Does this franchise have the look and feel of one that is moving in the right direction? 

78 point was bad enough to fire the last GM and it might just be good enough to fire the current one too.

There hasn't been much talk about this b/c folks are mostly focused on Housley and the coaching situation.

Hang in there, and let's see what goes down next week.

 

 

 

Yeah, but Murray went from 81 DOWN to 78, Botterill went from 62 UP to atleast 72, so since it is going UP, thats positive!

Yup, just trying to see things from the sunshine and rainbows view and prepare for the worst that both of these guys are back next season to sell more damaged goods......

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Curtisp5286 said:

I think that Sam is just about as good as Nashville’s top forwards: Johansen, Forsberg, and Arvidsson.

Not that makes your wrong necessarily.  Nashville struggles with secondary scoring and has a terrible PP.

Wow! I think I was saying something earlier somewhere about Buffalo fans having a tendency to overrate their players............... 

[Billznut]

I’m amazed at how many people think PH is gone next week. When it comes to the Sabres, the Pegulas have done almost nothing right in 8 years. Why in the world do people think the Pegulas will get THIS right and fire Housley?  I want PH gone. I don’t think it’ll happen. If I had to bet my bank account on this, I’d put my money on he’s coming back. 

[dudacek]

12 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Wow! I think I was saying something earlier somewhere about Buffalo fans having a tendency to overrate their players............... 

13/50/63, 33/14/47, 20/42/62, 27/20/47.

Which is the overrated one?

[Zamboni]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

13/50/63, 33/14/47, 20/42/62, 27/20/47.

Which is the overrated one?

Naturally the one that doesn’t have sick deeks and dipsy doodle moves. Oh and only if the player is on the Sabres. 

It’s No wonder why Afinogenov was a fan favorite of casual shallow hockey fans. Speed, moved all over the ice in a Tasmanian devil kind of way. Looked like he was the best player trying the hardest.... but when it came to putting the rubber in the net, most seasons his productivity was average to below average. He left you wanting more productivity.

But a player with the same production or even a little better, but was creative, instead of fast. Great on ice IQ, instead of sick dangles. He was considered “not at good” and “over rated”.

I would take a player like Ryan Smith and Dave Andrychuk over Afinogenov all day everyday.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Zamboni

[Curt]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Wow! I think I was saying something earlier somewhere about Buffalo fans having a tendency to overrate their players............... 

Any reasons why you think that Reinhart is definitely a worse player than Johansen, Arvidsson, and Forsberg?  

To me it looks like they are all relatively close.

[jad1]

6 hours ago, Billznut said:

I’m amazed at how many people think PH is gone next week. When it comes to the Sabres, the Pegulas have done almost nothing right in 8 years. Why in the world do people think the Pegulas will get THIS right and fire Housley?  I want PH gone. I don’t think it’ll happen. If I had to bet my bank account on this, I’d put my money on he’s coming back. 

Because the Pegulas have been consistent in firing coaches after 2 years (Ruff, Nolan, Bylsma, Rex) and in just about all cases, they've been right to do so.

They make their mistakes when they hire the new coach.

[Tondas]

Got to believe that the marketing group is telling Terry/Kim that if PH comes back, their sponsors may revolt and pull some or all ads.  If no one is watching, they won't keep paying for ads.  The business side, along with the epic collapse, makes firing PH a no-brainer for Terry/Kim.  However, no-brainer has a different connotation for the Pegulas so who knows?