Phil Housley should be fired.

[SDS]

Just now, dudacek said:

I'm checking out before people start seeing me as a Phil defender.

I'm looking for examples of things that Phil is doing wrong and the answers boil down to: "he's losing."

I miss Flagg.

You have my full support in pretty much everything you have been saying lately... Asking people to go beyond the cliches isn't unreasonable.

Looking at the tweets from the Leafs last game, I would think the light would go on when the comments from each fan base look very familiar, despite the different coaches and records. It can't mean much if it applies to both teams.

[StuckinFL]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I'm checking out before people start seeing me as a Phil defender.

I'm looking for an explanation of the things that Phil is doing wrong and the answers boil down to: "he's losing."

I miss Flagg.

Me too.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

35 minutes ago, JJFIVEOH said:

Good teams don't need to comeback every game to win. 

Never said they were a good team ....at least not yet.

Never said they've comeback to win every game either.

Read what's there and not what you want to see.

Have any questions...ask.

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, JJFIVEOH said:

Good teams don't need to comeback every game to win. 

We aren’t a good team.  What team do we have more talent then that sit significantly above us in the standings?  

Here is what have. We have an excellent top line.  We have a future Norris winning D, but who is 18 and an NHL rookie. We have one good all around D in McCabe and he is out for the season, and two solid offensive D but who are generally lacking D zone skills in Risto and Montour (and Montour has only recently been added).  We have 2 legit NHL depth forwards in Erod and Sheary and both are smaller players, plus 2 talented but raw rookies forwards in Tage and Mitts.  That’s it folks.  That is our team.

Scandella and Bogo would be 3rd line D at best on a good team.  The remaining Sabres if they all were replaced tomorrow no one would care except the hope that the replacements would be better.

[Stoner]

43 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I'm checking out before people start seeing me as a Phil defender.

I'm looking for an explanation of the things that Phil is doing wrong and the answers boil down to: "he's losing."

I miss Flagg.

Go back and read his posts from last spring and summer. They expose both Phil and Jason. The positivity police started the process of driving him crazy (and eventually off). He's happy now, I can report. He's in a better place.

[Radar]

My reasoning for coaching change is that for this team I think mire experience may be needed. I supported his hire but in hindsight(always 20/20) this is a young team,coach and GM. Not sure more experience isn't needed from ownership down.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I'm checking out before people start seeing me as a Phil defender.

I'm looking for an explanation of the things that Phil is doing wrong and the answers boil down to: "he's losing."

I miss Flagg.

I don’t understand the losing argument either.

I see a flawed but improving product.  

Last season we were -81 in goal differential with 199 gf, 280 ga, 25 total wins with the 22nd PK and the 20th PP.

This season we are a -33 with 200 gf (in 72 games) and 233 ga.  We have 31 wins with the 8th PK and 18th PP.  Admittedly, most of the negative differential has come from bad goaltending and D play in recent weeks. Since McCabe went out against Toronto March 2nd we are -16 in goal differential (8 games). Overall this is improvement.  

So now explain to me how a team with a flawed roster, which has improved in nearly every area and significantly overall would fire the coach 2 years into the first proper rebuild?

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[eman]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I'm checking out before people start seeing me as a Phil defender.

I'm looking for an explanation of the things that Phil is doing wrong and the answers boil down to: "he's losing."

I miss Flagg.

Inevitably as far as coaching careers go, that's all we all need to know. Once you start losing, you're in the hot seat.

[eman]

10 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don’t understand the losing argument either.

I see a flawed but improving product.  

Last season we were -81 in goal differential with 199 gf, 280 ga, 25 total wins with the 22nd PK and the 20th PP.

This season we are a -33 with 200 gf (in 72 games) and 233 ga.  We have 31 wins with the 8th PK and 18th PP.  Admittedly, most of the negative differential has come from bad goaltending and D play in recent weeks. Since McCabe went out against Toronto March 2nd we are -16 in goal differential (8 games). Overall this is improvement.  

So now explain to me how a team with a flawed roster, which has improved in nearly every area and significantly overall would fire the coach 2 years into the first proper rebuild?

 

No one said "they" would fire Phil. We're just saying "we" would fire Phil (especially with Quenneville and Guy Boucher out there) But that's just me and others who think similarly. We will see what the off season brings and maybe Phil stays and gets to show that this club will improve even more than many feel they have this season. Or maybe we get what we've been seeing since New Year's and he's toast. Not a really long wait to find out. Lets see if JBots can at least make this off season interesting.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

2 minutes ago, eman said:

Inevitably as far as coaching careers go, that's all we all need to know. Once you start losing, you're in the hot seat.

No....it just depends on how you read things.

He didn't "start" losing, we have more wins than last year. He started winning.

Or you can look at it a different way, the losing started 8 yrs ago. 3GM's and 5 coaches later, you want to blame one person.

[eman]

15 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don’t understand the losing argument either.

I see a flawed but improving product.  

Last season we were -81 in goal differential with 199 gf, 280 ga, 25 total wins with the 22nd PK and the 20th PP.

This season we are a -33 with 200 gf (in 72 games) and 233 ga.  We have 31 wins with the 8th PK and 18th PP.  Admittedly, most of the negative differential has come from bad goaltending and D play in recent weeks. Since McCabe went out against Toronto March 2nd we are -16 in goal differential (8 games). Overall this is improvement.  

So now explain to me how a team with a flawed roster, which has improved in nearly every area and significantly overall would fire the coach 2 years into the first proper rebuild?

 

So if those stats are correct (and I totally believe you) with 10 games remaining- lets say the Sabres get 20-25 more goals in those games. We will be 26 golas more than last season. Not bad, but not a huge improvement (and that's if I'm not being too generous) Lets say our PK and PP percentages stay roughly the same. Again, the PP has not improved but the PK has. Looks like maybe goaltending may have been our biggest improvement perhaps?

 

2 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

No....it just depends on how you read things.

He didn't "start" losing, we have more wins than last year. He started winning.

Or you can look at it a different way, the losing started 8 yrs ago. 3GM's and 5 coaches later, you want to blame one person.

I look at it as : He has not had a record over 0.500 in 2 seasons as coach so thereby LOSING SEASONS. I don't expect Buffalo to get over 0.500 by the end of this one. Look at Babcock. Even on TSN they are acknowledging that if he cannot get them at least into the 2nd round of the playoffs this year, he will be ion the hot seat and he has had winning (greater than 0.500) seasons the past couple of years.

5 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

No....it just depends on how you read things.

He didn't "start" losing, we have more wins than last year. He started winning.

Or you can look at it a different way, the losing started 8 yrs ago. 3GM's and 5 coaches later, you want to blame one person.

I do when the tank is definitely over and we see similar hockey. Tank seasons were losing on purpose.

[Zamboni]

First mistake is thinking TSN are level headed reasonable talking heads ...

it took me 1.5 seasons to get there ... but I want Housley gone. And I think he will be before the playoffs begin.

JB will likely have a minimum of one more full season as GM. And if the team looks better next season, he’ll get more than that.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

4 minutes ago, eman said:

So if those stats are correct (and I totally believe you) with 10 games remaining- lets say the Sabres get 20-25 more goals in those games. We will be 26 golas more than last season. Not bad, but not a huge improvement (and that's if I'm not being too generous) Lets say our PK and PP percentages stay roughly the same. Again, the PP has not improved but the PK has. Looks like maybe goaltending may have been our biggest improvement perhaps?

 

I look at it as : He has not had a record over 0.500 in 2 seasons as coach so thereby LOSING SEASONS. I don't expect Buffalo to get over 0.500 by the end of this one. Look at Babcock. Even on TSN they are acknowledging that if he cannot get them at least into the 2nd round of the playoffs this year, he will be ion the hot seat and he has had winning (greater than 0.500) seasons the past couple of years.

So now we need a better coach than Babcock and get to the 2nd rd in a hurry or nobody will be satisfied? 

Good luck with that. 

And once we get there then what will all the b****in' be about?

And once we win the cup, I can hear it already......"take out that 15 game win streak and were just an average to mediocre team".

[GASabresIUFAN]

32 minutes ago, eman said:

Inevitably as far as coaching careers go, that's all we all need to know. Once you start losing, you're in the hot seat.

Ok, but hot seat is a long way from being fired.  I disagree that PH is on the hot seat.

 That said, I understand why people are miffed.  Jbot traded away a legit top 30 Center in ROR and failed to adequately replace him.  (Not sure how this is PH’s fault).  Despite losing ROR, the team looked to be playing great team hockey early in the year culminating in the streak and since then the team has slowly circled the drain.  I’m miffed also.  I pleaded with Jbot to get a replacement center when Berglund skipped town.  

I know many here dislike PH’s line and pairing combos (count me among them sometimes).  I know others don’t like his demeanor and lack of “fire.”  However, as I watch this team circle the drain, I have come to realize, that the roster remains significantly flawed.  We lack finishers besides the top line and maybe Sheary.  We also lack D who are good in their own zone.  I’ve said this many times, but McCabe is our only defender who is good at playing defense.  Dahlin is learning on the job, Montour just got here, Risto Bogo and Scandella are all defensively challenged at times although Risto is the worst of the 3.  Also our two goalies, who made every stop when we needed it early in the year, have stopped making them.  Ullmark’s two softies against Carolina are just the latest example. He makes those 2 stops, it’s a 2-2 game.

So if your Phil how do you make lemonade out of these lemons? Coaches can only do so much.  It’s up to the players to execute.  

Edited March 18, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[GASabresIUFAN]

29 minutes ago, eman said:

No one said "they" would fire Phil. We're just saying "we" would fire Phil (especially with Quenneville and Guy Boucher out there) But that's just me and others who think similarly. We will see what the off season brings and maybe Phil stays and gets to show that this club will improve even more than many feel they have this season. Or maybe we get what we've been seeing since New Year's and he's toast. Not a really long wait to find out. Lets see if JBots can at least make this off season interesting.

 

22 minutes ago, eman said:

So if those stats are correct (and I totally believe you) with 10 games remaining- lets say the Sabres get 20-25 more goals in those games. We will be 26 golas more than last season. Not bad, but not a huge improvement (and that's if I'm not being too generous) Lets say our PK and PP percentages stay roughly the same. Again, the PP has not improved but the PK has. Looks like maybe goaltending may have been our biggest improvement perhaps?

 

Fire Phil and then what.  Bring in a new coach and hope for .... what exactly?  Some guy who can turn bad defensive players into good ones and magically turn mediocre goaltending into good goaltending?  Do we then restructure the roster again to reflect this 6th new system?

no goaltending isn’t our biggest area of improvement.  Scoring is.  2.43 gf/gp to 2.77 vs. 3.41 ga/gp to 3.24 ga/gp this year.  

[eman]

3 hours ago, Zamboni said:

First mistake is thinking TSN are level headed reasonable talking heads ...

it took me 1.5 seasons to get there ... but I want Housley gone. And I think he will be before the playoffs begin.

JB will likely have a minimum of one more full season as GM. And if the team looks better next season, he’ll get more than that.

2nd mistake, thinking anyone of us posting here are level headed reasonable talking heads. All we are doing is sharing opinions and in reality, Sabre management will do what it will do, fire Phil, keep Phil, keep Jbot etc. All I know is that by December of this year if this club hasn't shown more improvement (if you want to say this season was) I would bet Phil is definitely gone then. (unless the club was debilitated by injuries) If Phil makes it to the draft as Sabres head coach. Believe it or not, I actually was happy when the Sabres gave him the shot, but like Zamboni, you know how I feel about that now.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

3 hours ago, eman said:

So if those stats are correct (and I totally believe you) with 10 games remaining- lets say the Sabres get 20-25 more goals in those games. We will be 26 golas more than last season. Not bad, but not a huge improvement (and that's if I'm not being too generous) Lets say our PK and PP percentages stay roughly the same. Again, the PP has not improved but the PK has. Looks like maybe goaltending may have been our biggest improvement perhaps?

 

I look at it as : He has not had a record over 0.500 in 2 seasons as coach so thereby LOSING SEASONS. I don't expect Buffalo to get over 0.500 by the end of this one. Look at Babcock. Even on TSN they are acknowledging that if he cannot get them at least into the 2nd round of the playoffs this year, he will be ion the hot seat and he has had winning (greater than 0.500) seasons the past couple of years.

I do when the tank is definitely over and we see similar hockey. Tank seasons were losing on purpose.

The tank seasons were over before Housley got here.

[JJFIVEOH]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

We aren’t a good team.  What team do we have more talent then that sit significantly above us in the standings?  

Here is what have. We have an excellent top line.  We have a future Norris winning D, but who is 18 and an NHL rookie. We have one good all around D in McCabe and he is out for the season, and two solid offensive D but who are generally lacking D zone skills in Risto and Montour (and Montour has only recently been added).  We have 2 legit NHL depth forwards in Erod and Sheary and both are smaller players, plus 2 talented but raw rookies forwards in Tage and Mitts.  That’s it folks.  That is our team.

Scandella and Bogo would be 3rd line D at best on a good team.  The remaining Sabres if they all were replaced tomorrow no one would care except the hope that the replacements would be better.

What we have is a team that is being built to succeed that (since the win streak) is holding almost the same win percentage as the teams that were built to fail. The talent level is on this team is leaps and bounds better than the tank teams and the results are the same. Housley is soft and weak. Just like his playing style. He is forcing the team to play his style instead of focusing on individual talents. It's the same thing Goober Bylsma did, and look where that got them. 

Good coaches force a system. Great coaches build successful teams by focusing on his players' strengths.

4 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Never said they were a good team ....at least not yet.

Never said they've comeback to win every game either.

Read what's there and not what you want to see.

Have any questions...ask.

Why do you need to be so snarky?

[dudacek]

51 minutes ago, JJFIVEOH said:

What we have is a team that is being built to succeed that (since the win streak) is holding almost the same win percentage as the teams that were built to fail. The talent level is on this team is leaps and bounds better than the tank teams and the results are the same. Housley is soft and weak. Just like his playing style. He is forcing the team to play his style instead of focusing on individual talents. It's the same thing Goober Bylsma did, and look where that got them. 

Good coaches force a system. Great coaches build successful teams by focusing on his players' strengths.

I’m pretty sure that the Sabres implementing a particular style of play starts with the GM.

Botterill wants his team to play a certain way - he wants a franchise identity that many here say we’ve lacked. He hired a coach who believes in the same style of game to not only implement it, but teach it to the young guys while he (Botterill) works at acquiring more players who can shine in that system.

Botterill made it pretty clear a few weeks back that he doesn’t think the roster is good enough yet, but he was happy with what he has seen from his coach in terms of communicating the system and developing players - which seems to be Botterill’s primary focus in year two of his rebuild.

He didnt hand Phil a group of players and say find a way to make them win, he said teach these guys how to play our way.

[...]

41 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m pretty sure that the Sabres implementing a particular style of play starts with the GM.

Botterill wants his team to play a certain way - he wants a franchise identity that many here say we’ve lacked. He hired a coach who believes in the same style of game to not only implement it, but teach it to the young guys while he (Botterill) works at acquiring more players who can shine in that system.

Botterill made it pretty clear a few weeks back that he doesn’t think the roster is good enough yet, but he was happy with what he has seen from his coach in terms of communicating the system and developing players - which seems to be Botterill’s primary focus in year two of his rebuild.

He didnt hand Phil a group of players and say find a way to make them win, he said teach these guys how to play our way.

I think this is dead on.

We, you, some of us, all of us may not like it, but I think this is "the way it is".

[eman]

1 hour ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

The tank seasons were over before Housley got here.

I know that. You're stating the obvious. My point being, Phil is here post tank and we are seeing similar hockey being played. I hope I cleared that up for you.

[eman]

5 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

So now we need a better coach than Babcock and get to the 2nd rd in a hurry or nobody will be satisfied? 

Good luck with that. 

And once we get there then what will all the b****in' be about?

And once we win the cup, I can hear it already......"take out that 15 game win streak and were just an average to mediocre team".

Again my point is Babcock  has pressure on him this season to get the Leafs into the second round at least according to Toronto insiders. If he doesn't, he will be in the hot seat because of the talent assembled  and the salaries paid out there. His regular season record is terrific. But why is Phil given such slack with his pathetic regular season record and no playoffs that he shouldn't be in the hot seat? I hope I clarified that point as well. No we don't need a coach to be better than Babcock although I would settle for coach as good as Babcock right now. 8 seasons of no playoffs going on 9. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

27 minutes ago, eman said:

Again my point is Babcock  has pressure on him this season to get the Leafs into the second round at least according to Toronto insiders. If he doesn't, he will be in the hot seat because of the talent assembled  and the salaries paid out there. His regular season record is terrific. But why is Phil given such slack with his pathetic regular season record and no playoffs that he shouldn't be in the hot seat? I hope I clarified that point as well. No we don't need a coach to be better than Babcock although I would settle for coach as good as Babcock right now. 8 seasons of no playoffs going on 9. 

What is the difference between Babcock's situation and PH's?  That is a great question with a simple answer.  This is year 4 of the Babcock tenure and he twice the talent of the Sabres yet can't get them past the 1st rd.  With that roster I think it is understandable why the fans, media and management want better results.

PH is in year 2 with an incomplete roster.  It's apples and oranges.

[dudacek]

20 minutes ago, eman said:

I know that. You're stating the obvious. My point being, Phil is here post tank and we are seeing similar hockey being played. I hope I cleared that up for you.

We are very clearly not seeing similar hockey being played.

During the tank (and under Bylsma) the underlying metrics for the Sabres were bad - historically bad,if I remember correctly. The ice was regularly tilted, we got outshot 40 to 25 on a regular basis. We scored less than 2 goals a game and allowed 3 1/2. During the tank year, we were outscored by 3 or more goals 26 times, limited to 1 or fewer goals 35 times, and scored 5 in a game just twice all year.

The underlying  metrics now are around 20th best in the league. We are in most games. We actually get scoring chances and can sometimes move the puck out of our zone.

I don’t blame people for blacking out the tank, but this is nothing like the tank.

[Thorner]

18 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It’s easier to blame the coach and the system despite the history,  the fact that he doesn’t create the roster and the lack of professionalism shown by some of the 23 guys in the locker room.  For example, were the two softies Ullmark missed last night PH’s fault?  

If PH has lost this team how did they play well and win against a Stl team fighting for a playoff spot? 

As I’ve said before that we are 2 years into the first proper rebuild during the “tank” era.  Jbot is still digging out from TM’s mess.  People need to remember that we have only 4 players from all the trades, draft picks, prospects acquired in 2013 and early 2014 and they are Jack, Sam, Larsson and Bogo. Not exactly the core of a great team.

One win any everything is fine again.

I also struggle with the idea that Murray was somehow such a colossal, all-time failure of a GM that it takes three seasons to even expect to not be among the very bottom feeders of the league. 

The timeline to not be terrible is ridiculous. What's Botterill's timeframe for making the playoffs? 5 years? 

Even Murray said that timeframe was ridiculous.

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by Thorny