Jason Botterill: Is he a good or bad GM?

[North Buffalo]

Yeh you are negative Nancy... I get you dont like JBotts, but compared to the last two he is light years better... perfect nope, better yes... more concerned about PH than JBotts... let’s see in two years and progress this and next year talent wise before I crap on JBotts... I’m nowhere near that yet. 

 

[dudacek]

42 minutes ago, jame said:

A good GM improves the team around there stars... creates the winning environment... and repairs whatever supposed relationship issues existed (ps I dont buy that for a second)...

At the first sign of difficulty Botts was impotent. 

I think it is important to differentiate between “a gulf between Eichel and O’Reilly” and “a dressing room culture in need of a shakeup.”

Why don’t you buy into the latter? Why is “Botterill is incompetent” a better explanation for the O’Reilly trade than “Botterill was not sold on O’Reilly as a core personality” and thought the organization was in a better position to move forward with his voice removed?

The GM has clearly taken steps to bring in positive, and competitive personalities (Skinner, Hutton,  Mittelstadt, Dahlin) remove “downers” (O’Reilly, Kane, Lehner) and hand the leadership of the franchise to Housley and Eichel who seem very comfortable preaching the same. Contrary to the “talent solves everything” approach, he clearly believes building a strong organizational identity is important for building a strong team, at least with this franchise, which had obviously lost faith in itself.

I don’t know if he’s right, but I do see a plan, and I do see the logic and I do see results in the quality of play throughout the organization, and the body language of the players.

All that despite the fact I love O’Reilly as a player and hated the idea of trading him, particularly for a grab bag of parts.

Edited January 29, 2019 by dudacek

[Taro T]

With @Shrader and the incomplete.

And the O'Reilly trade really looks suspect at this time, but we don't know just how much (if at all) the owners REALLY wanted him gone.  Considering they have to at least partially blame his brother on their possibly failed prospect Nylander, and they definitely weren't happy with his donut acquistion adventure; there's a very real possibility that they gave Botterill a hard time limit to get rid of him prior to paying him his signing bonus.  IF Botterill HAD to get rid of Snook, the trade looks better.

[Scottysabres]

Ok, so far no scout list, but Toronto's top scout is there, Philly with 2 scouts, and it's now being purported Buffalo has 3 scouts at the Rangers/Philly match. Take that as you will.

[Scottysabres]

And The Legend Of Skinner Grows!!!!!!!!

[...]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

With @Shrader and the incomplete.

And the O'Reilly trade really looks suspect at this time, but we don't know just how much (if at all) the owners REALLY wanted him gone.  Considering they have to at least partially blame his brother on their possibly failed prospect Nylander, and they definitely weren't happy with his donut acquistion adventure; there's a very real possibility that they gave Botterill a hard time limit to get rid of him prior to paying him his signing bonus.  IF Botterill HAD to get rid of Snook, the trade looks better.

Without a doubt the Pegulas were involved in the decision to get rid of ROR.  I thought that was commonly assumed.

[matter2003]

Too early to tell but fleecing Skinner for a bag of pucks was a great start

[Taro T]

32 minutes ago, ... said:

Without a doubt the Pegulas were involved in the decision to get rid of ROR.  I thought that was commonly assumed.

It's pretty well assumed that the owners preferred him not to be in Buffalo.  But his HAVING to be gone before the lump sum was due is still speculation.  (Though, considering he was shipped out prior to the Pegulas writing a check makes it a very reasonable & likely hypothesis.)

And, that he probably HAD to trade O'Reilly doesn't seem to get included in the trade evaluation a lot of the time.  That package he got back was undoubtably the best offer available under the circumstances.  Soif Thompson &/or the 1st doesn't pan out and it looks like Botterill got crushed in the deal, was he really destroyed if that was the best deal available given the constraints management put him under?

It's also an interesting question of what would the Blues have offered had Berglund's agent not been slow on the paperwork.  It would have been a different salary dump, would that have made a higher rated prospect such as Thomas become available?

Edited January 30, 2019 by Taro T

[klos1963]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Generally speaking we won't know for a couple of years until we know about his deals and draft picks, but there is a lot to like so far despite my anger of his slow reaction to replacing Berglund

Positives

1) Dahlin - IMHO Jbot built a terrible team on purpose last season because he wanted a mini-tank and to help clear the dead weight cap hits..  No one will admit to it, especially after he acquired Scandella and Baloo, but how else do you explain signing Pouliot, Josefsson, Griffith, claiming Nolan, and keeping guys like Falk.  It worked and we got Dahlin.

2) Skinner - even if we trade him at the deadline, we'll likely get more then we gave up to get him.  However he'll likely be re-signed and soon

3) Pilut - this is a steal now with the potential to be a HR as early as next year.  Nice getting a potential top 4 D for nothing.

4) Scandella - what you say?  He was terrific last year and despite having an off year this year so far, he has mostly been a very good acquisiton for us.  Pommers also hasn't hurt.  While not a top 6 winger, he has given us some great games playing along with Jack, a calm professional voice in the lockerroom.  We gave us Foligno and Ennis to get him.  Ennis has now moved on and Foligno had 23 pts last year (for the 3rd year in a row) and is trending toward 17 pts this season.  Scandella, like Bogo this year, is likely to bounce back next season if he isn't traded.  Scandy played 121 for us and Pommers 125.  

5) Sheary - was acquired for a 4th rd pick with Hunwick.  Again, Jbot used our cap space to secure a solid player.  If we had a 2nd line center, we'd be getting more out of Sheary. With another year left on his deal, this trade could still blossom

6) Hutton - While he has struggled lately, my guess is he'll get back to the form we saw earlier in the year.  It would be nice if we played a little better D to help out Hutton and Ullmark.

7) Baloo - Really?  Yep.  We gave up a 3rd rd pick (a pick with about 18% chance of playing a season in the NHL) and have received 85 games to date.  He'll likely be traded at the deadline or over the summer and we'll likely get back a similar pick to what we gave up.

8.) Wilson - for a 5th rd pick. Again gave up virtually nothing for a player who helped us last year and if he had been healthy he would have helped us this season.  Don't be surprised if he helps us down the stretch.

9) Baptiste/Hudson trades - dumped two of TM/DR prospect who had no chance of making the Sabres and turned them into 2 AHL D who still may have a chance at the NHL.  Both are smart bets and have helped our D depth in the organization.  I'd like to see what Dougherty can do in Buffalo.

10) Carrier to LV so that we could protect Ullmark.  Any complaints?

11) Improvements in Roch promised and delivered.  (Should Taylor be the coach here?)

Jury is still out

1) Kane to SJ for O'Regan and a conditional 2nd.  I still think Jbot got fleeced on the deal, except that SJ re-signed Kane turning the 2nd into a 1st.  However O'Regan hasn't seen the NHL with us and won't.  There are rumors he is headed over-seas next season.  SJ's 1st will be late pick in 2019.  Odds are that we won't see value from this deal for another 2-4 years.

2) ROR to STl for Berglund, Sobotka, Thompson and a conditional 1st.  Thompson looks to have a future.  Odds right now say the 1st slips to 2020.  Sobotka and Berglund were cap dumps that were supposed to help our depth, improve our PK, score a little, give Mitts some protection win some faceoffs.  Oops.  Berglund went AWOL and took his cap hit with him, which is a long-term positive but short -term problem. Sobotka has been mediocre at best and still has another year on his deal, while ROR has had a great season for the Blues but hasn't reversed their fortunes either.  ROR was moved IMHO to clear the way for this to become Jack's team.  Still it left a huge gap in the roster that Jbot has yet to fill.  Best case for the pick is mid first this season or lottery potential in 2020.

3) Draft improvement - UPL, Oskari etc.. For the first time in 15 years it looks like we actually have an idea who to draft.  Mitts looks a steal at 8 (2017) and obviously Dahlin is future star, but drafting prowess comes from hitting on later picks.  If guys like Pekar, UPL, Oskari, Weissbach or others come through, this will be another feather in Jbot's cap.

4) PH - Jbot hired him.  I'm a fan of PH the player, and I like how much improvement we have seen in back end scoring.  Still the PP is a mess and the line combos aren't working.  Also lately the D haven't supported the goalies as they should.  

Mistakes

1) Bad depth signings - see Nolan, Josefson, Pouliot.

2) Deadline management - We seem to have an aggressive GM in the summer (Skinner, Sheary) and a cautious one at the deadline.  I felt he waited to long to move Kane last season and again has waited to long to replace Berglund. Other GM seems to get bigger deals done in the weeks ahead of the deadline (see: Muzzin deal) but not JBot. 

Bottomline:

This team was a joke when he got here. Locker room and cap issues on a bottom feeding them that had a terrible farm team, almost no D depth in the organization and few higher end prospects.  The Amerks are now one of the top teams in the AHL.  The Sabres are now competitive.  D depth has gone from a weakness to a strength.  Most of the bad contracts are gone or will be soon and the cap is no longer an issue.  However he still hasn't fully changed the losing culture in Buffalo and our NHL worst record in the last 23 games is a major concern.  So far Jbot's tenure is a success, but still no playoffs and I'm worried that he is going to blow this opportunity to get us into the playoffs this season.

 

Pretty solid summary. My 2 minor criticisms- calling Pilut and Mittlestadt 'steals'.  Pilut looks promising, but isn't there yet. Mittlestadt has been disappointing this season considering the fact that he was thought of as a ROY candidate. Not to say they both won't be good, but too early to tell, let alone consider them ' a steal'.

[In The Buff]

The ROR trade has been discussed ad nauseam but the Blues picked him up with the expectation that he would push them over the top & look at whats happened to that team. While statistically he's having a good season, just like he was having here, that team has been in the bottom part of the league. Is it a coincidence? I have no idea. But it is ironic that they got worse after acquiring him & we got better. I hate over simplified generalizations but it is an interesting footnote to the subject.

If he was such a player to build a championship team around, it surely hasnt paid off for the Blues just yet. @ GASabresIUFAN  's post pretty much sums up my take on everything & i appreciate him taking the time to write that up, as i simply dont have the patience for that haha.

We have 4 1st round picks in the next 2 years, lots of young promising talented players. Depth in our organization with our farm team turned around & the culture has changed around this franchise. The future looks a lot brighter than it did a couple years ago & that didnt happen by accident.

Edited January 30, 2019 by MillerVaive

[PerreaultForever]

Can't believe some of you still question the ROR deal. 

Is it not obvious that the attitude of the team has changed this year? JBot said he had to change the culture and he did what was needed for that. Argue all you want on that, but you can't disagree that it's changed this year. Kane, ROR, Lehner, all talented all gone, all EXTREMELY SELF CENTERED AND SELFISH PLAYERS. All have had attitude and off ice issues of varying degrees. Maybe Lehner looked in the mirror and saw the light when nobody wanted him but he quit on this team and had to go. Maybe Kane's been a good team guy in SJ, I haven't bothered to follow it, but they are loaded with talent and will likely not win again and St Louis is worse than they were. Go figure.

In one year, JBot took a dysfunctional mess with few prospects and has restructured it into a young rising team that is fun to watch and has a bright future. We have more prospects and extra picks. I'm not sure what some of you would need to say he's done a good job, but come on, no way can you say he's been "bad."

Now if he doesn't sign Skinner and he walks away for nothing I might change my mind, but right now I still think he's the best GM we've had since Punch. 

[Radar]

14 hours ago, jame said:

Incompetent GM: Losing has impacted one of the two star players on the roster, solution... trade star player 

Competent GM: Losing has impacted one of the two star players on the roster, solution... build a winner

Botts took an ~80 point team... turned it into a ~60 point team... and then traded a star player who hated losing.

Thank god this clown lucked in to Dahlin and Skinner or we would be so screwed

Was your mission to join us here to crucify a general manager?

[Jacque Richard]

As opposed to whaleys drinking buddy.

[jame]

1 hour ago, Radar said:

Was your mission to join us here to crucify a general manager?

Nope. No mission.

[grinreaper]

27 minutes ago, jame said:

Nope. No mission.

While not having any skin in this argument it would appear that you are on a crusade against PH & JBot.

[GASabresIUFAN]

11 hours ago, klos1963 said:

Pretty solid summary. My 2 minor criticisms- calling Pilut and Mittlestadt 'steals'.  Pilut looks promising, but isn't there yet. Mittlestadt has been disappointing this season considering the fact that he was thought of as a ROY candidate. Not to say they both won't be good, but too early to tell, let alone consider them ' a steal'.

I said Miits looks like a steal at 8.  Also Pilut is a steal.  How often do you sign an undrafted FA from Europe (or anywhere) and he becomes an NHL contributor in 1/3 of a season? 

Yes both guys are a long way from being stars but both guys are already legit NHL players.

[GASabresIUFAN]

16 hours ago, jame said:

Incompetent GM: Losing has impacted one of the two star players on the roster, solution... trade star player 

Competent GM: Losing has impacted one of the two star players on the roster, solution... build a winner

Botts took an ~80 point team... turned it into a ~60 point team... and then traded a star player who hated losing.

Thank god this clown lucked in to Dahlin and Skinner or we would be so screwed

How is it luck that he acquired Skinner?

Also you need to provide context for your statements.  You said Scandella wasn’t good last year.  You use stats that provide no context.  You don’t mention he was playing top line minutes against top line opponents on the worst team in the NHL.  

As to turning an 80 pt team into a 60 pt team, you fail to mention that that team was hopelessly flawed with an over 80 mill payroll in real $ loaded with in effective players on bad contracts for big $.

You tried to be pithy, but if you can tell me what option Jbot has to fix this flawed roster I’d like to know. Remember TM loaded us up with Gorges Kulikov, an unhealthy Lehrer,  Moulson, Gionta, Kane, Mr Glass Bogo, and Okposo all making millions with only Kane coming close to earning his contract.  How was that team salvageable?

[...]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 How was that team salvageable?

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, Radar said:

Was your mission to join us here to crucify a general manager?

No different from his discussion points on the HFBoards. He has as much hatred for Botts as one guy there did for GMTM where it becomes annoying through repetitive statements.

No GM is perfect, Botts has done well in my opinion. He’s made seemingly good & bad deals but has certainly at very least changed the team’s overall atmosphere.

Edited January 30, 2019 by thewookie1

[nfreeman]

IMHO, the question of whether JB has done a good job vs a poor job is entirely legit, as are the related questions of whether Mitts and/or TT should be in Rochester, whether Howie was a good hire, whether the ROR trade was a good trade, and others that have been raised in this discussion.

After a thrilling but statistically unsustainable winning streak, the Sabres have more or less crash-landed and are reasonably likely to miss the playoffs.  If they continue on the pace of the past 22 games or so, they'll miss the playoffs by a pretty good margin, and the questions above will be further legitimated.

Now, that doesn't mean the conversation shouldn't be conducted in a friendly manner, or that dead horses should be excessively beaten -- but it's a conversation worth having.

[jame]

1 hour ago, grinreaper said:

While not having any skin in this argument it would appear that you are on a crusade against PH & JBot.

I think it's an important and worthy debate point...

[jame]

45 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

How is it luck that he acquired Skinner?

Also you need to provide context for your statements.  You said Scandella wasn’t good last year.  You use stats that provide no context.  You don’t mention he was playing top line minutes against top line opponents on the worst team in the NHL.  

As to turning an 80 pt team into a 60 pt team, you fail to mention that that team was hopelessly flawed with an over 80 mill payroll in real $ loaded with in effective players on bad contracts for big $.

You tried to be pithy, but if you can tell me what option Jbot has to fix this flawed roster I’d like to know. Remember TM loaded us up with Gorges Kulikov, an unhealthy Lehrer,  Moulson, Gionta, Kane, Mr Glass Bogo, and Okposo all making millions with only Kane coming close to earning his contract.  How was that team salvageable?

Acquiring Skinner was lucky because Skinner had a full NTC and would only waive it to go home (Toronto) or close to home (Buffalo). 

I did provide context.... that being minutes played equating to roughly all top 4 defensemen in the NHL. I am glad you recognize that Botts turned Buffalo in to the worst team in the NHL in his first year on the job. 

The team he inherited was not "hopelessly flawed"... the team had huge issues in goal and on the blueline. Two simple offseason moves solved the goaltending issue, winning the lottery for Dahlin and getting Bogo, McCabe back healthy, while adding Pilut solved the problems. The thing that makes Botts terrible is his inability to react to what's happening around him. He didn't react to the colossal blunder of a roster he built last year, and this offseason he didn't react to the impact of winning Dahlin... even if they were dead set on trading ROR, they should've pivoted when they won the lottery. You see if talent solves the problem before making the moronic decision to trade talent to fix culture (a decision that other struggling franchises have also made - Edm/Hall)

Botts could've not tanked all over the roster in 2017-18. He added numerous non-NHLers to the active roster (Griffith, Tennyson, Pouliot, Josefson, ... and proceeded to do absolutely nothing as the season went down the toilet. Then blamed ROR for it.

Again... thank god he got lucky and landed Dahlin.

Gorges - Could've been waived

Kulikov - Wasn't on the roster when Botts arrived.

Lehner - Could've done far far better than Chad Johnson as a backup

Moulson - Took too long to do the obvious

Gionta - wasn't in Buffalo when Botts arrived

You complain about the wasted cap space of the murray era.... but here we are 2 years in to the Botts era and we've got Scandella, Pominville, Hunwick, Beaulieu, Sobotka chewing up over 18 million in cap space... and that's after he lucked in to getting Berglund's horrifying contract off the books....

the fact is, he took an 80 point team and made it worse, with the only actual benefit being the luck of winning Dahlin. And then went and traded an all star for nothing...

Edited January 30, 2019 by jame

[klos1963]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I said Miits looks like a steal at 8.  Also Pilut is a steal.  How often do you sign an undrafted FA from Europe (or anywhere) and he becomes an NHL contributor in 1/3 of a season? 

Yes both guys are a long way from being stars but both guys are already legit NHL players.

How can someone who is not all that effective, not currently playing to expectations be a steal? He was set up to be our 2nd line center,  a lot was expected out of him.  And a #8 pick is expected to be a valuable player, how do you steal someone @ 8 unless they are a superstar?  Again with Pilut, he made the team, sort of, he's been a healthy scratch because he hasn't been playing well in our own zone.  Not a steal.

I expect both of them to do well eventually, but just saying they aren't steals. That's all.

[jame]

Just now, klos1963 said:

How can someone who is not all that effective, not currently playing to expectations be a steal? He was set up to be our 2nd line center,  a lot was expected out of him.  And a #8 pick is expected to be a valuable player, how do you steal someone @ 8 unless they are a superstar?  Again with Pilut, he made the team, sort of, he's been a healthy scratch because he hasn't been playing well in our own zone.  Not a steal.

I expect both of them to do well eventually, but just saying they aren't steals. That's all.

Agreed re: Mitts. Elias Peterssen is what a steal looks like.

[jame]

38 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

No different from his discussion points on the HFBoards. He has as much hatred for Botts as one guy there did for GMTM where it becomes annoying through repetitive statements.

No GM is perfect, Botts has done well in my opinion. He’s made seemingly good & bad deals but has certainly at very least changed the team’s overall atmosphere.

Botts has done well in selling the fan base on a vision... that's for sure.