Picks, Prospects, or Players???

[sweetlou]

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/draft.html

 

I have never understood the obsession of holding onto late first rd picks or later round picks when you have the opportunity to obtain a player who has already worked their way up to the NHL?

If I had to give up a late 1st rd pick and prospect for a player that was already in the league and signed to some term, I would do it in a heart beat.  So many people think of the potential of players and are always afraid there going to miss on that third round pick who becomes a star, but those are far and few between.  If you look at the history of the Sabres drafts, having a lot of picks does not translate into success.  

I feel JBotts should acquire a young player who is already in the league and just not getting a chance because of the team they are currently on.  

So for the next four years are you looking to build around picks, prospects, or players??

 

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/draft.html

 

I have never understood the obsession of holding onto late first rd picks or later round picks when you have the opportunity to obtain a player who has already worked their way up to the NHL?

If I had to give up a late 1st rd pick and prospect for a player that was already in the league and signed to some term, I would do it in a heart beat.  So many people think of the potential of players and are always afraid there going to miss on that third round pick who becomes a star, but those are far and few between.  If you look at the history of the Sabres drafts, having a lot of picks does not translate into success.  

I feel JBotts should acquire a young player who is already in the league and just not getting a chance because of the team they are currently on.  

So for the next four years are you looking to build around picks, prospects, or players??

 

So you would trade a late first round pick for say... Zack Kassian? 

[sweetlou]

34 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

So you would trade a late first round pick for say... Zack Kassian? 

No I'm talking more about picks and prospects for players like Bjugstad from Florida or Burakovsky from Washington.

[LGR4GM]

I wouldn't trade a 1st for Burakovsky. My entire problem with all these threads saying trade a first is the vagueness of that trade. 

[Georgia Blizzard]

I think you are assuming other teams will over value a late 1st round pick and would give up a decent player for them, in general, they won't.  Every team knows their value.  The only time that gets distorted is when (a) a team is rebuilding and willing to shed current assets for future ones or (b) a team is on the cusp of winning and is willing to shed future assets for current ones.  Exception to rule: Peter Chiarelli and GMTM :-)

 

 

[LGR4GM]

That's the entire problem. It isn't just a 1st for a player, it is a 1st and Guhle or Olofsson and Fitzgerald or Pekar.  It would be MULTIPLE assets including a 1st which you then cannot use to replace that asset. For a rental, it just isn't worth it. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Trading picks for players (TM method) is usually best deployed to keep a top level team on top. Eventually this strategy will kill a franchise (see Chicago, Detroit).  The Sabres aren’t there.  We aren’t even contenders yet.  To build long-term we must have a supply of good cheap players to fill roster holes and to stay cap compliant.  

That said, if we can use some of our pipeline to help get us the 2C for the next couple of years while Mitts develops, I’m all for it.  However, the only player on the rumor mill I’m giving up a 1sr for is Courterier.  

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Trading picks for players (TM method) is usually best deployed to keep a top level team on top. Eventually this strategy will kill a franchise (see Chicago, Detroit).  The Sabres aren’t there.  We aren’t even contenders yet.  To build long-term we must have a supply of good cheap players to fill roster holes and to stay cap compliant.  

That said, if we can use some of our pipeline to help get us the 2C for the next couple of years while Mitts develops, I’m all for it.  However, the only player on the rumor mill I’m giving up a 1sr for is Courterier.  

I am on board with your Couterier idea. I would give up a 1st for him. We have Bealuie sitting around, wonder if they have any interest in him as well. Probably not but couldn't hurt to ask. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

33 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I am on board with your Couterier idea. I would give up a 1st for him. We have Bealuie sitting around, wonder if they have any interest in him as well. Probably not but couldn't hurt to ask. 

He’d be a perfect fit here.  He’s 26, has 3 years left at only 4.33 and had 76 pts last season and has 39 in 46 games this year.  He is excellent two way player and sadly, would cost an arm and a leg to acquire.  Probably a 1st, an NHL ready forward, and another pick or prospect.  

I wonder if Giroux might be a more available and cheaper option.  He is 31, still great, plays all 3 forward slots, and has 3 years left at 8.25.  His NMC, age, big contract might keep the cost down. Could he convinced to come here?  What would the cost be?  A 1st and a medium prospect?

[sabills]

The main thing I take away from that link is how much Darcy really killed us with those drafts from 2009-2012.

Actually, more like 2005-2012. The twin Tylers year was alright, but other than that its a wasteland.

[jame]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I am on board with your Couterier idea. I would give up a 1st for him. We have Bealuie sitting around, wonder if they have any interest in him as well. Probably not but couldn't hurt to ask. 

Unless you're putting 2-3 top end assets on the board, we aren't sniffing Couturier.

Start with two 1sts and Mittelstadt... and be ready to add.

Edited January 24, 2019 by jame

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, jame said:

Unless you're putting 2-3 top end assets on the board, we aren't sniffing Couturier.

Start with two 1sts and Mittelstadt... and be ready to add.

And if that were the price I would hang up the phone and not call back. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Trading picks for players (TM method) is usually best deployed to keep a top level team on top. Eventually this strategy will kill a franchise (see Chicago, Detroit).  The Sabres aren’t there.  We aren’t even contenders yet.  To build long-term we must have a supply of good cheap players to fill roster holes and to stay cap compliant.  

That said, if we can use some of our pipeline to help get us the 2C for the next couple of years while Mitts develops, I’m all for it.  However, the only player on the rumor mill I’m giving up a 1sr for is Courterier.  

Is Couturier actually in the rumour mill? Or is that just wishful Internet thinking?

Flyers have an excellent player on an excellent contract. He’s 26 and signed for 3 more years.

Why would he be on the market?

if by some fluke chance he is, I’d pay big for him. He’s as good as O’Reilly and on a better contract.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I think everyone in Philly available except Patrick, Hart and a couple of the young D.  The question will they go full on rebuild or will try to re-stock with some targeted trades.  

[JJFIVEOH]

6 hours ago, sweetlou said:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/draft.html

 

I have never understood the obsession of holding onto late first rd picks or later round picks when you have the opportunity to obtain a player who has already worked their way up to the NHL?

If I had to give up a late 1st rd pick and prospect for a player that was already in the league and signed to some term, I would do it in a heart beat.  So many people think of the potential of players and are always afraid there going to miss on that third round pick who becomes a star, but those are far and few between.  If you look at the history of the Sabres drafts, having a lot of picks does not translate into success.  

I feel JBotts should acquire a young player who is already in the league and just not getting a chance because of the team they are currently on.  

So for the next four years are you looking to build around picks, prospects, or players??

 

I can see holding on to first round picks if you only have one of them, like every team does. You need to build your depth. 

But, if you're a team like the Sabres who might possibly have three of them this year, use one or two of them to get immediate secondary scoring and still have one or two left to plan for the future. 

This team in unlikely to make the playoffs this year, but if you can get immediate secondary scoring and make them a playoff team next year, and still have enough draft picks to only make them stronger in a couple of years, do it! 

The trade deadline and offseason is going to Bots defining moment. This is where we see if he is worth it. 

[sweetlou]

So some centers JBotts should be looking at as gap fillers for the next couple of years until Mitts is ready for second line duties.

Jean-Gabriel Pageau- Ott.    Signed through next year at 3.1 mil.  Good on face-offs, and willing to throw his body around.

Charlie Coyle- Min.    Signed through next year at 3.2 mil.

Sean Couturier- Phil.  Signed for two more years after this season.

Radek Faska- Dallas

Nick Bjugstad-  Florida.    Signed for two more years after this season. Could us change of scenery to get back on track.

 

I would give up San Jose pick and prospects and depending on who we could get maybe even more.

[darksabre]

4 hours ago, sabills said:

The main thing I take away from that link is how much Darcy really killed us with those drafts from 2009-2012.

Actually, more like 2005-2012. The twin Tylers year was alright, but other than that its a wasteland.

Yuuuupppp.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think everyone in Philly available except Patrick, Hart and a couple of the young D.  The question will they go full on rebuild or will try to re-stock with some targeted trades.  

Maybe that was the case before, but now that they think they've found their goalie it might not be the case. They'll still move their FA's but not Coutourier. No way.

8 hours ago, sweetlou said:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/draft.html

 

I have never understood the obsession of holding onto late first rd picks or later round picks when you have the opportunity to obtain a player who has already worked their way up to the NHL?

One big reason is it's a cap league. To stay successful you need to have a constant influx of young underpaid rookie talent. If you don't, you end up in cap hell really really fast.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

7 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Maybe that was the case before, but now that they think they've found their goalie it might not be the case. They'll still move their FA's but not Coutourier. No way.

One big reason is it's a cap league. To stay successful you need to have a constant influx of young underpaid rookie talent. If you don't, you end up in cap hell really really fast.

You can end up in cap hell either way, look at TO. I know Tavares doesn't help that any, but they were heading in that direction anyway.

And they still have needs on D.

Edited January 24, 2019 by MakeSabresGrr8Again

[Scottysabres]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I wouldn't trade a 1st for Burakovsky. My entire problem with all these threads saying trade a first is the vagueness of that trade. 

This is a fair statement.

So, I will try not to be vague in my attempt to trade not one, but two 1st's.

To Buffalo:

Rickard Rakell, 25 yrs old, primarily 0lays center but has shifted to wing from time to time. $3,789,444 x 3 yrs

Brandon Montour, 24 yrs old, PM-RHD. $3,387, 500

To Anaheim:

St. Louis 1st rd pick

Buffalo 2019 1st rd pick

St. Louis 2021 2nd rd pick

Buffalo 2021 2nd rd pick

Why Anaheim does this, aging core, draft picks coincide with needed replenishment.

Why Buffalo does this, 2 key assets on very reasonable contracts that fill needs. Further draft picks can be accumulated as the seasons progress, no significant losses.

 

You have to give to get, championships are not won by those who are faint of heart. If you can substantially better the team now, you do it. I've waited 50 yrs for a cup, ÷=%/ waiting another 5 yrs for "potential". If we can add and go for it in the next 18 months, then do it.

 

 

 

[inkman]

I haven't seen Couturier in any rumors any where on the internets minus this ridiculous place.  I can't fathom why they would trade him. 

You know who I do see in trade rumors. Radko Freaking Gudas. That's what available. Not MVP caliber young players with term.  

[Carmel Corn]

I wouldn't mind see Michael Ferland from Carolina on this team.....but unfortunately he's a likely rental situation, so a no-go in my book.  Would love to see a scenario where he could be acquired with a "reasonable" sign and trade, but highly unlikely.

[In The Buff]

3 hours ago, JJFIVEOH said:

I can see holding on to first round picks if you only have one of them, like every team does. You need to build your depth. 

But, if you're a team like the Sabres who might possibly have three of them this year, use one or two of them to get immediate secondary scoring and still have one or two left to plan for the future. 

This team in unlikely to make the playoffs this year, but if you can get immediate secondary scoring and make them a playoff team next year, and still have enough draft picks to only make them stronger in a couple of years, do it! 

The trade deadline and offseason is going to Bots defining moment. This is where we see if he is worth it. 

I agree. However at this point the types of players JBots would have to be looking for are those with term remaining on their contracts, all while looking towards the future. Because by waiting to make a move at the deadline, we've wasted too much time already & we're pretty much already out of a playoff spot. I know thats not what us fans want to hear, but just the other day was that post about how many regulation losses we could have & still make the playoffs. Only way its even feasible is going on a 5 - 7 game winning streak & winning at a 70% clip. All doable in the minds of us Sabres faithful but from JBots perspective he's probably looking at next year.

But youre right about this offseason for sure. He's had 2 seasons to evaluate the talent or lack there of & has a good cap situation & assets in his pocket. I fully expect him to be making moves come the draft, when the prices for players arent as high as they are now before the deadline. Imo the time for JBots to make a move for this season was a month ago.

[JJFIVEOH]

4 minutes ago, MillerVaive said:

I agree. However at this point the types of players JBots would have to be looking for are those with term remaining on their contracts, all while looking towards the future. Because by waiting to make a move at the deadline, we've wasted too much time already & we're pretty much already out of a playoff spot. I know thats not what us fans want to hear, but just the other day was that post about how many regulation losses we could have & still make the playoffs. Only way its even feasible is going on a 5 - 7 game winning streak & winning at a 70% clip. All doable in the minds of us Sabres faithful but from JBots perspective he's probably looking at next year.

But youre right about this offseason for sure. He's had 2 seasons to evaluate the talent or lack there of & has a good cap situation & assets in his pocket. I fully expect him to be making moves come the draft, when the prices for players arent as high as they are now before the deadline. Imo the time for JBots to make a move for this season was a month ago.

That's a fair point, waiting until the offseason when players can be had for cheaper. It's unfortunate we have to wait until next year to become a playoff team. But, I think it's inevitable. 

[jame]

1 hour ago, Scottysabres said:

This is a fair statement.

So, I will try not to be vague in my attempt to trade not one, but two 1st's.

To Buffalo:

Rickard Rakell, 25 yrs old, primarily 0lays center but has shifted to wing from time to time. $3,789,444 x 3 yrs

Brandon Montour, 24 yrs old, PM-RHD. $3,387, 500

To Anaheim:

St. Louis 1st rd pick

Buffalo 2019 1st rd pick

St. Louis 2021 2nd rd pick

Buffalo 2021 2nd rd pick

Why Anaheim does this, aging core, draft picks coincide with needed replenishment.

Why Buffalo does this, 2 key assets on very reasonable contracts that fill needs. Further draft picks can be accumulated as the seasons progress, no significant losses.

 

You have to give to get, championships are not won by those who are faint of heart. If you can substantially better the team now, you do it. I've waited 50 yrs for a cup, ÷=%/ waiting another 5 yrs for "potential". If we can add and go for it in the next 18 months, then do it.

 

 

 

Rakell is primarily a winger and has played the majority of his career there.

theres a zero % chance that 4 years of his well below market, prime age contract would be traded for a handful of draft picks

and we get Mountour too?