Trade Thread -- 2019 Deadline Edition (Actual Trades not Involving Sabres). Also, trade rumors and all other thoughts about anything.

[Taro T]

19 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

I think the most likely way the Sabres make the playoffs is if Columbus implodes AND the Sabres get Panarin. We know Panarin is not coming here and I really think Carolina will end up getting the 8 spot when all is said and done.

Eh, maybe the 1-1/2 weeks off fully healed Hutton back up so he'll look like he did before the injury.  That would give the Sabres a realistic shot at 7 or 8 even with Botterill continuing to (effectively) sit on his hands.

[jame]

1 hour ago, Scottysabres said:

Muzzin has lost a couple of steps. I watch quite a bit of the west coast games, he's not what he was a couple years ago. It was a fair trade however.

As for Marner, I speak from some clarity with this, Toronto is in trouble cap wise for next season. The statement of keeping them all together isn't going to happen. There is a real reason why Marner and his Agent will not talk contract until after the season, and it has 0, nothing, notta, zilch to do with staying loyal to Toronto. You can bet there is going to be a sacrificial lamb out of Toronto, and it isn't going to be Nylander.

I’ll take that bet. Marner in a leafs jersey next year.

the idea that the cap is going to cause a team to trade a 21 year old superstar is hilarious.

 

[jame]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I find it interesting that some people can find hope in a 25-year old minor leaguer and others are writing off a 21-year-old NHLer.

Are either of those things actually happening? What people?

[Scottysabres]

6 minutes ago, jame said:

I’ll take that bet. Marner in a leafs jersey next year.

the idea that the cap is going to cause a team to trade a 21 year old superstar is hilarious.

 

I'm just a working man, but, my parents had season tickets for 27 yrs, my first childhood memories of games were the 74/75 season, I was at the Aud and watched Lorentz knock the bat out of the air. My mom dated a former Sabres, indeed, I wore Danny Gare's skates at 13 yrs old while playing for the Wheatfield Blades and St. Catherine's Tigers. You don't want to take that bet. As much as many people here despise Toronto, they weren't always in our division, or conference for that matter. When you travel the SOHL circuit as a kid, you get to meet people. Don't count on what your stating here. Just a friendly tip.

[Wyldnwoody44]

This thread is turning into a crap show between a couple parties (albeit a fun one to read) but when I see the leafs acquire Muzzin, and the majority of the posts are still over ROR, Middlestadt and etc, it gets kinda silly

[Broken Ankles]

3 hours ago, jame said:

Correct. I think he’s done a terrible job, and a ton of damage 

Let me add to the plethora of positive transactions JB has made in a short time in Buffalo.  These are outside the aforementioned  Skinner and and good fortune of Dahlin (which also is understated, Murray was a jinx that lost all  his Draft lotteries in Buffalo.  Luck matters.) 

* Signing Lawrence Pilut. 

* Drafting and more importantly convincing UPL to play in the OHL and eventually Rochester. 

* D. O'Reagan (for Roch) and a 1st for Kane.

* 6th Round Pick to Vegas to take Carrier and not select Linus in Expansion Draft.

*  Zack Redmond (Roch contributor) for Deslauriers

* Brandon Hickey for H. Fasching.

* Signing Will Borgen (and developing properly)

* Signing Asplund and getting him to develop in Roch.

* UFA Carter Hutton to team friendly 3 year deal.  (And I think this is undervalued thus far.  Lehner is having a nice (Lucky?) year,  but Hutton is a true Pro and will serve as a proper role model for Linus and a good back up over the next 2 years.  

* Equitable Bridge deal for Sam that allows flexibility for trade after 2020 or signing a lucrative long term deal if he continues to ascend.  But it was the cogent decision to bridge. 

* Promising growth on later round selections in 2018 -  Samuelsson, Pekar and Kukkonen.   Too early to quantify anything. 

I think deals like Wilson, Sheary, Beaulie, Bailey, Baptiste, Fedun are all a wash.  They were either non-factors or involved insignificant and /or lower draft picks. 

so for each swing and miss:

a.) Pominville/Scandella deal

b.) Mismanagement of Mittlestadt (I agree with your assessment)

there are more positive moves, in my opinion.   How do I get there?   Both the compete level of the team and the the record of both Rochester and Buffalo is better than it was two years ago or last year.   And this includes losing its best Center from last season.   While you have already decided the O'Reilly trade is a colossal failure (incorrectly I might add),  I need at least two years to decide who wins this trade.  And in this two years,  Tampa Bay and Toronto will continue to dominate the East.  O'Reilly on the Sabres this year or next would not affect this result.  By his third season, Dahlin will have the experience and talent (think Drew Doughty  year 3/4 in LA) to take this team to the next level.   And IF (leap of faith) - Tage can develop, increase his strength, and contribute in top 6 capacity, and JB spends the $7.5M AAV that would have been designated to an aging 30+ Center on other Free Agent(s), and the first and second round picks we receive from St. Louis have moderate success, then he can win that one too.  I know Terry Pegs has lots of cash, but money was  also a factor in when the trade was made, so there is that.  So I'll provide JB enough slack to spend that money this off season and next, and use those 3 first round picks (and properly develop) before I condemn him and suggest he's damaged the team.   This jury member needs time to deliberate. 

[jame]

7 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

I'm just a working man, but, my parents had season tickets for 27 yrs, my first childhood memories of games were the 74/75 season, I was at the Aud and watched Lorentz knock the bat out of the air. My mom dated a former Sabres, indeed, I wore Danny Gare's skates at 13 yrs old while playing for the Wheatfield Blades and St. Catherine's Tigers. You don't want to take that bet. As much as many people here despise Toronto, they weren't always in our division, or conference for that matter. When you travel the SOHL circuit as a kid, you get to meet people. Don't count on what your stating here. Just a friendly tip.

who knew Danny Gare’s skates had insider sources....

ill take the bet 

 

[SABRES 0311]

7 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

I'm just a working man, but, my parents had season tickets for 27 yrs, my first childhood memories of games were the 74/75 season, I was at the Aud and watched Lorentz knock the bat out of the air. My mom dated a former Sabres, indeed, I wore Danny Gare's skates at 13 yrs old while playing for the Wheatfield Blades and St. Catherine's Tigers. You don't want to take that bet. As much as many people here despise Toronto, they weren't always in our division, or conference for that matter. When you travel the SOHL circuit as a kid, you get to meet people. Don't count on what your stating here. Just a friendly tip.

I played for Blades from 1999 to 2002

[LTS]

The Leafs will have 27 contracts next year.

13 players on the roster and roughly $60M already on the books.

Their big names are Matthews and Marner.  If the cap goes to $85M (a $6M jump).  The Leafs can sign both, let's say $11M for Matthews (despite Pi's $12M assertion) and $8M for Marner.  That leaves $6M on the table to get another 5 skaters on the books just for the NHL team.

What's Kapanen going to get?  

The Leafs will have to get creative and they will be thin on defense still. Reilly, Zaitsev, and Muzzin will be their top D.  It's a good trade for Toronto who needs to do all they can to win this year.  They're going up against the Lightning.  That said.. they may have put themselves in a tight spot for next year.  They'll likely make the signings and play thin and then be back stronger the following year when a few more salaries come off the books.  Question is... who do they have coming up?

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, LTS said:

The Leafs will have 27 contracts next year.

13 players on the roster and roughly $60M already on the books.

Their big names are Matthews and Marner.  If the cap goes to $85M (a $6M jump).  The Leafs can sign both, let's say $11M for Matthews (despite Pi's $12M assertion) and $8M for Marner.  That leaves $6M on the table to get another 5 skaters on the books just for the NHL team.

What's Kapanen going to get?  

The Leafs will have to get creative and they will be thin on defense still. Reilly, Zaitsev, and Muzzin will be their top D.  It's a good trade for Toronto who needs to do all they can to win this year.  They're going up against the Lightning.  That said.. they may have put themselves in a tight spot for next year.  They'll likely make the signings and play thin and then be back stronger the following year when a few more salaries come off the books.  Question is... who do they have coming up?

I think the likely play is that you see Kapanen traded for something so they don't pay him. Or they trade Marleu somehow. The leafs are going to have to get creative. I was surprised they didn't try to dish someone out with Muzzin. 

9 hours ago, jame said:

Are either of those things actually happening? What people?

There are many people in the last year that have written off Nylander while simultaneously being excited about Olofsson and Smith. 

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, LTS said:

The Leafs will have 27 contracts next year.

13 players on the roster and roughly $60M already on the books.

Their big names are Matthews and Marner.  If the cap goes to $85M (a $6M jump).  The Leafs can sign both, let's say $11M for Matthews (despite Pi's $12M assertion) and $8M for Marner.  That leaves $6M on the table to get another 5 skaters on the books just for the NHL team.

What's Kapanen going to get?  

The Leafs will have to get creative and they will be thin on defense still. Reilly, Zaitsev, and Muzzin will be their top D.  It's a good trade for Toronto who needs to do all they can to win this year.  They're going up against the Lightning.  That said.. they may have put themselves in a tight spot for next year.  They'll likely make the signings and play thin and then be back stronger the following year when a few more salaries come off the books.  Question is... who do they have coming up?

 

I don’t see any way that Marner will sign for $8 million. Kid thinks he’s equal to Jack and will be able to make a good case for that.

He’s going to watch what Matthews gets and say “I’ve outproduced him over our careers.” He will take less, but not much less.

He’s going to see what they gave Nylander and say “I’m way better than that guy.” And he’ll be right.

 

 

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

I don’t see any way that Marner will sign for $8 million. Kid thinks he’s equal to Jack and will be able to make a good case for that.

He’s going to watch what Matthews gets and say “I’ve outproduced him over our careers.” He will take less, but not much less.

He’s going to see what they gave Nylander and say “I’m way better than that guy.” And he’ll be right.

 

 

I think Mitch is going to hit 30g and somewhere around 80pts this year. He's going to ask for 10mil because that's Eichel money but less than Matthews. Matthews I think asks for 11 or 12. I can't see him thinking he is worth a lot less than McDavid. I think he is worth less but I don't think he sees it that way. 

[jame]

30 minutes ago, LTS said:

The Leafs will have 27 contracts next year.

13 players on the roster and roughly $60M already on the books.

Their big names are Matthews and Marner.  If the cap goes to $85M (a $6M jump).  The Leafs can sign both, let's say $11M for Matthews (despite Pi's $12M assertion) and $8M for Marner.  That leaves $6M on the table to get another 5 skaters on the books just for the NHL team.

What's Kapanen going to get?  

The Leafs will have to get creative and they will be thin on defense still. Reilly, Zaitsev, and Muzzin will be their top D.  It's a good trade for Toronto who needs to do all they can to win this year.  They're going up against the Lightning.  That said.. they may have put themselves in a tight spot for next year.  They'll likely make the signings and play thin and then be back stronger the following year when a few more salaries come off the books.  Question is... who do they have coming up?

Toronto has a ton of avenues to deal with their cap issues... none of which involve losing Matthews or Marner.

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

I don’t see any way that Marner will sign for $8 million. Kid thinks he’s equal to Jack and will be able to make a good case for that.

He’s going to watch what Matthews gets and say “I’ve outproduced him over our careers.” He will take less, but not much less.

He’s going to see what they gave Nylander and say “I’m way better than that guy.” And he’ll be right.

 

 

I'd expect Marner and Matthews to sign similar contracts that allow them to hit free agency in their prime. 5 years / 10 per.

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, jame said:

Toronto has a ton of avenues to deal with their cap issues... none of which involve losing Matthews or Marner.

I'd expect Marner and Matthews to sign similar contracts that allow them to hit free agency in their prime. 5 years / 10 per.

I can see that happening too. I can see Dubas taking that path. Shortens their window because one of their stars will be gone at 26, but maximizes their talent in that window. Players, meanwhile, will get two huge contracts in their 20s.

Edited January 29, 2019 by dudacek

[jame]

9 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

Let me add to the plethora of positive transactions JB has made in a short time in Buffalo.  These are outside the aforementioned  Skinner and and good fortune of Dahlin (which also is understated, Murray was a jinx that lost all  his Draft lotteries in Buffalo.  Luck matters.) 

* Signing Lawrence Pilut. 

* Drafting and more importantly convincing UPL to play in the OHL and eventually Rochester. 

* D. O'Reagan (for Roch) and a 1st for Kane.

* 6th Round Pick to Vegas to take Carrier and not select Linus in Expansion Draft.

*  Zack Redmond (Roch contributor) for Deslauriers

* Brandon Hickey for H. Fasching.

* Signing Will Borgen (and developing properly)

* Signing Asplund and getting him to develop in Roch.

* UFA Carter Hutton to team friendly 3 year deal.  (And I think this is undervalued thus far.  Lehner is having a nice (Lucky?) year,  but Hutton is a true Pro and will serve as a proper role model for Linus and a good back up over the next 2 years.  

* Equitable Bridge deal for Sam that allows flexibility for trade after 2020 or signing a lucrative long term deal if he continues to ascend.  But it was the cogent decision to bridge. 

* Promising growth on later round selections in 2018 -  Samuelsson, Pekar and Kukkonen.   Too early to quantify anything. 

I think deals like Wilson, Sheary, Beaulie, Bailey, Baptiste, Fedun are all a wash.  They were either non-factors or involved insignificant and /or lower draft picks. 

so for each swing and miss:

a.) Pominville/Scandella deal

b.) Mismanagement of Mittlestadt (I agree with your assessment)

there are more positive moves, in my opinion.   How do I get there?   Both the compete level of the team and the the record of both Rochester and Buffalo is better than it was two years ago or last year.   And this includes losing its best Center from last season.   While you have already decided the O'Reilly trade is a colossal failure (incorrectly I might add),  I need at least two years to decide who wins this trade.  And in this two years,  Tampa Bay and Toronto will continue to dominate the East.  O'Reilly on the Sabres this year or next would not affect this result.  By his third season, Dahlin will have the experience and talent (think Drew Doughty  year 3/4 in LA) to take this team to the next level.   And IF (leap of faith) - Tage can develop, increase his strength, and contribute in top 6 capacity, and JB spends the $7.5M AAV that would have been designated to an aging 30+ Center on other Free Agent(s), and the first and second round picks we receive from St. Louis have moderate success, then he can win that one too.  I know Terry Pegs has lots of cash, but money was  also a factor in when the trade was made, so there is that.  So I'll provide JB enough slack to spend that money this off season and next, and use those 3 first round picks (and properly develop) before I condemn him and suggest he's damaged the team.   This jury member needs time to deliberate. 

I couldn't figure out how to multi quote.... so here we go:

Quote

* Signing Lawrence Pilut. 

AWESOME JOB by Botts

Quote

* Drafting and more importantly convincing UPL to play in the OHL and eventually Rochester. 

AWESOME JOB by Botts

Quote

* D. O'Reagan (for Roch) and a 1st for Kane.

Baseline competency

Quote

* 6th Round Pick to Vegas to take Carrier and not select Linus in Expansion Draft.

Fail. We had to give up an NHL asset to protect Ullmark, BECAUSE Botts chose to protect Lehner... and then subsequently gave him away a year later.... This was a failure on Botts part.

Quote

*  Zack Redmond (Roch contributor) for Deslauriers

Definitely a win for Rochester... but

Quote

* Brandon Hickey for H. Fasching.

Eh.... I think we lost this trade.

Quote

 

* Signing Will Borgen (and developing properly)

* Signing Asplund and getting him to develop in Roch.

 

Now we are giving Botts credit for simply signing Murray's draft picks? come on....

Quote

* UFA Carter Hutton to team friendly 3 year deal.  (And I think this is undervalued thus far.  Lehner is having a nice (Lucky?) year,  but Hutton is a true Pro and will serve as a proper role model for Linus and a good back up over the next 2 years.  

Hutton was a very good signing... let's not forget that he gave away Lehner... a guy who is currently in the Vezina conversation.

Quote

* Equitable Bridge deal for Sam that allows flexibility for trade after 2020 or signing a lucrative long term deal if he continues to ascend.  But it was the cogent decision to bridge. 

Oh god no.... the Reinhart deal is a huge failure. The only benefit to the bridge would've been trying to win this year and using the created cap space towards that end. Trading ROR, bridging Reinhart... and then using ALL that cap space on Berglund, Sobotka, Sheary, Hunwick... is epic incompetence.

Quote

* Promising growth on later round selections in 2018 -  Samuelsson, Pekar and Kukkonen.   Too early to quantify anything. 

I love his 2018 draft.

Quote

I think deals like Wilson, Sheary, Beaulie, Bailey, Baptiste, Fedun are all a wash.  They were either non-factors or involved insignificant and /or lower draft picks. 

Instead of just Qualifying Wilson he gave him over 1 million per... and for multiple years... same with Beaulieu (2 years)... neither deal is a major hinderance... just show's a poor NHL level evaluation.

 

Quote

there are more positive moves, in my opinion.   How do I get there?   Both the compete level of the team and the the record of both Rochester and Buffalo is better than it was two years ago or last year.   And this includes losing its best Center from last season.   While you have already decided the O'Reilly trade is a colossal failure (incorrectly I might add),  I need at least two years to decide who wins this trade.  And in this two years,  Tampa Bay and Toronto will continue to dominate the East.  O'Reilly on the Sabres this year or next would not affect this result.  By his third season, Dahlin will have the experience and talent (think Drew Doughty  year 3/4 in LA) to take this team to the next level.   And IF (leap of faith) - Tage can develop, increase his strength, and contribute in top 6 capacity, and JB spends the $7.5M AAV that would have been designated to an aging 30+ Center on other Free Agent(s), and the first and second round picks we receive from St. Louis have moderate success, then he can win that one too.  I know Terry Pegs has lots of cash, but money was  also a factor in when the trade was made, so there is that.  So I'll provide JB enough slack to spend that money this off season and next, and use those 3 first round picks (and properly develop) before I condemn him and suggest he's damaged the team.   This jury member needs time to deliberate. 

How do you need more time to decide if trading an All Star center in his prime with term, for lotto tickets and cap dumps was a good idea?  Is buying $10,000 in scratch off lotto tickets a good idea? No... and you don't need to scratch them all off first to know that.

Edited January 29, 2019 by jame

[LGR4GM]

Lehner is in the Vezina convo because he plays in a low event system that plays to his strengths. He was never going to work here. 

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, jame said:

Fail. We had to give up an NHL asset to protect Ullmark, BECAUSE Botts chose to protect Lehner... and then subsequently gave him away a year later.... This was a failure on Botts part.

Hutton was a very good signing... let's not forget that he gave away Lehner... a guy who is currently in the Vezina conversation.

Oh god no.... the Reinhart deal is a huge failure. The only benefit to the bridge would've been trying to win this year and using the created cap space towards that end. Trading ROR, bridging Reinhart... and then using ALL that cap space on Berglund, Sobotka, Sheary, Hunwick... is epic incompetence.

Instead of just Qualifying Wilson he gave him over 1 million per... and for multiple years... same with Beaulieu (2 years)... neither deal is a major hinderance... just show's a poor NHL level evaluation.

 

 

 

Which is it? He failed because he protected Lehner or because he let Lehner go. You can't have it both ways. I think you would have yelled and screamed more if Lehner was left unprotected so there is a no win scenario there for Botterill. Also do we really care that we lost William Carrier? He's a replacement level player. 

I think the Reinhart deal was perfect. Reinhart was a middling player who needed more time. Signing him to a long term high end deal would have been silly. In 2 years he will still be an RFA and can sign a longer deal if warranted. There are lots of benefits to the bridge. You could call the addition of the listed players bad but epic incompetence it is not. 

Wilson is injured... so not sure how you get to your conclusion. 

[LGR4GM]

And before you try and argue it was dumb to protect and then give away Lehner, Ullmark wasn't ready last year. You would have roasted Botterill for letting Lehner go to vegas for nothing and starting an unready Ullmark. You are roasting him for what he did do, so the only other option was sign and trade Lehner this summer. No team wanted him and he worked his way into the starting role in NY on a prove it deal. Good for Lehner for getting his head straight but he plays in a system that benefits him. 

[jame]

48 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Which is it? He failed because he protected Lehner or because he let Lehner go. You can't have it both ways. I think you would have yelled and screamed more if Lehner was left unprotected so there is a no win scenario there for Botterill. Also do we really care that we lost William Carrier? He's a replacement level player. 

I think the Reinhart deal was perfect. Reinhart was a middling player who needed more time. Signing him to a long term high end deal would have been silly. In 2 years he will still be an RFA and can sign a longer deal if warranted. There are lots of benefits to the bridge. You could call the addition of the listed players bad but epic incompetence it is not. 

Wilson is injured... so not sure how you get to your conclusion. 

I can certainly have it both ways.

He used a protection slot... on a guy he gave away for free less than a year later. That's a fail. 

Now, the player he gave away is outperforming the guy he chose to replace him.

Carrier may be a replacement level player... but we've spent the last two seasons with multiple sub replacement level forwards in the lineup on the regular.

Reinhart v Scheifele

Draft Year : Both go back to juniors

Draft Year + 1 Season : Reinhart debuts 40 point rookie, Scheifele back to juniors

D+2:

• Reinhart 79 games / 47 points / 0.60 per game
• Scheifele 63 games / 34 points / 0.54 per game

D+3: This is last season for Reinhart....

• Reinhart 82 games / 50 points / 0.61 per game
• Scheifele 82 games / 49 points / 0.60 per game

 

We were going in to Reinhart's D+4 and we bridged him for D+4 and 5....here's how his development trend tracks against Scheifele.

D+4: 

• Reinhart 48 games / 44 points / 0.92 per game (pace)
• Scheifele 71 games / 61 points / 0.86 per game

D+5:

• Reinhart ??? games / ???  points / ??? per game
• Scheifele 79 games / 82 points / 1.04 per game

So for cap savings in years that Botts isn't even trying to win.... we will end up paying the difference between getting a long term deal done with a 40-50 player and a long term deal (that buys more UFA years) for a 70-80 point player in a higher cost market.

 

Bridging Reinhart was a god awful move

Winnipeg didn't bridge Scheifele.... they gave him 8 years coming of his ELC... and have a 6.1 per year bargain on their hands for a long time.

43 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

And before you try and argue it was dumb to protect and then give away Lehner, Ullmark wasn't ready last year. You would have roasted Botterill for letting Lehner go to vegas for nothing and starting an unready Ullmark. You are roasting him for what he did do, so the only other option was sign and trade Lehner this summer. No team wanted him and he worked his way into the starting role in NY on a prove it deal. Good for Lehner for getting his head straight but he plays in a system that benefits him. 

Why would Vegas have claimed Lehner?

Edited January 29, 2019 by jame

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, jame said:

I can certainly have it both ways.

He used a protection slot... on a guy he gave away for free less than a year later. That's a fail. 

Now, the player he gave away is outperforming the guy he chose to replace him.

Carrier may be a replacement level player... but we've spent the last two seasons with multiple sub replacement level forwards in the lineup on the regular.

Why would Vegas have claimed Lehner?

Why wouldn't have Vegas claimed Lehner? He then would have given Lehner away for free a year earlier and you would still be mad about. You see my point isn't what Botterill did do, it is that regardless you would have been mad at him. If he protects Ullmark and loses Lehner, you are mad. If he does what he did you are mad. If he does something else you would have been mad because it means we lost someone else. It was a no win scenario. I will gladly lose Carrier and move on. 

So you admit that Carrier is a replacement level player yet you are mad we tossed him away to keep a non replacement level gt in Ullmark? That doesn't make sense to me. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by LGR4GM

[Broken Ankles]

11 minutes ago, jame said:

I can certainly have it both ways.

He used a protection slot... on a guy he gave away for free less than a year later. That's a fail. 

Now, the player he gave away is outperforming the guy he chose to replace him.

Carrier may be a replacement level player... but we've spent the last two seasons with multiple sub replacement level forwards in the lineup on the regular.

Reinhart v Scheifele

Draft Year : Both go back to juniors

Draft Year + 1 Season : Reinhart debuts 40 point rookie, Scheifele back to juniors

D+2:

• Reinhart 79 games / 47 points / 0.60 per game
• Scheifele 63 games / 34 points / 0.54 per game

D+3: This is last season for Reinhart....

• Reinhart 82 games / 50 points / 0.61 per game
• Scheifele 82 games / 49 points / 0.60 per game

 

We were going in to Reinhart's D+4 and we bridged him for D+4 and 5....here's how his development trend tracks against Scheifele.

D+4: 

• Reinhart 48 games / 44 points / 0.92 per game (pace)
• Scheifele 71 games / 61 points / 0.86 per game

D+5:

• Reinhart ??? games / ???  points / ??? per game
• Scheifele 79 games / 82 points / 1.04 per game

So for cap savings in years that Botts isn't even trying to win.... we will end up paying the difference between getting a long term deal done with a 40-50 player and a long term deal (that buys more UFA years) for a 70-80 point player in a higher cost market.

 

Bridging Reinhart was a god awful move

What are you assuming the AAV would have been for a long term agreement? 

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, jame said:

Reinhart v Scheifele

Draft Year : Both go back to juniors

Draft Year + 1 Season : Reinhart debuts 40 point rookie, Scheifele back to juniors

D+2:

• Reinhart 79 games / 47 points / 0.60 per game
• Scheifele 63 games / 34 points / 0.54 per game

D+3: This is last season for Reinhart....

• Reinhart 82 games / 50 points / 0.61 per game
• Scheifele 82 games / 49 points / 0.60 per game

 

We were going in to Reinhart's D+4 and we bridged him for D+4 and 5....here's how his development trend tracks against Scheifele.

D+4: 

• Reinhart 48 games / 44 points / 0.92 per game (pace)
• Scheifele 71 games / 61 points / 0.86 per game

D+5:

• Reinhart ??? games / ???  points / ??? per game
• Scheifele 79 games / 82 points / 1.04 per game

So for cap savings in years that Botts isn't even trying to win.... we will end up paying the difference between getting a long term deal done with a 40-50 player and a long term deal (that buys more UFA years) for a 70-80 point player in a higher cost market.

 

Bridging Reinhart was a god awful move

Winnipeg didn't bridge Scheifele.... they gave him 8 years coming of his ELC... and have a 6.1 per year bargain on their hands for a long time.

You are right Scheifele is a bargain. Could you guarantee that going into this season Reinhart would have been a bargain at 8yrs and 6 or 7mil? We don't know and I think Botterill wanted Reinhart to prove it. It is a hell of a problem to have to worry about a player performing so well that we'll need to pay them more. I wish we had more players to worry about like that. Reinhart is going to settle in as a 60-70ish point guy probably. He is going to take a discount to stay here with Eichel. Let's say we use Sheifele as a base, that means Reinhart would be at 6.1mil right now. In 2 years what if that is say 7.5mil or 8mil, we are now worried about 2million more. If you can't fit that under the cap, you are bad at your job and that is worse case scenario. Let's see where Reinhart is and what he gets signed too. That could happen this summer. This summer we could sign Reinhart to a 8yr 7mil per extension and be none the worse for it. 

[jame]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Why wouldn't have Vegas claimed Lehner? He then would have given Lehner away for free a year earlier and you would still be mad about. You see my point isn't what Botterill did do, it is that regardless you would have been mad at him. If he protects Ullmark and loses Lehner, you are mad. If he does what he did you are mad. If he does something else you would have been mad. It was a no win scenario. 

So you admit that Carrier is a replacement level player yet you are mad we tossed him away to keep a non replacement level gt in Ullmark? That doesn't make sense to me. 

I would've been completely fine with leaving Lehner unprotected. I don't think Vegas would've claimed him. Lehner's personality was not inline with what McPhee was building, and with Fleury as the established heavy game starter, Lehner would've been a distraction. I wouldn't have cared if Vegas did claim him though.... especially since Botts tanked the season anyways.

I'm not a huge fan of giving away assets for free, especially to protect goalies who have not established themselves. 

It's funny that in one thread you claim to be all about the depth, and then trash Carrier.... what do you think depth actually looks like? It looks like having a 4th line that can take a regular shift against NHL competition in the playoffs (Vegas 4th line), it looks like 10 goals from "replacement level" Carrier in half a season....

[jame]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You are right Scheifele is a bargain. Could you guarantee that going into this season Reinhart would have been a bargain at 8yrs and 6 or 7mil? We don't know and I think Botterill wanted Reinhart to prove it. It is a hell of a problem to have to worry about a player performing so well that we'll need to pay them more. I wish we had more players to worry about like that. Reinhart is going to settle in as a 60-70ish point guy probably. He is going to take a discount to stay here with Eichel. Let's say we use Sheifele as a base, that means Reinhart would be at 6.1mil right now. In 2 years what if that is say 7.5mil or 8mil, we are now worried about 2million more. If you can't fit that under the cap, you are bad at your job and that is worse case scenario. Let's see where Reinhart is and what he gets signed too. That could happen this summer. This summer we could sign Reinhart to a 8yr 7mil per extension and be none the worse for it. 

It's not about being able to fit Eichel, Skinner, Reinhart, Dahlin, etc...

It's actually about that depth that you pretend to care about so much... the 2-3 million per year that we didn't save on Reinhart, will affect the level of talent that makes up our depth.

[jame]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Lehner is in the Vezina convo because he plays in a low event system that plays to his strengths. He was never going to work here. 

True. 

13 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

What are you assuming the AAV would have been for a long term agreement? 

I think we could've gotten it done at 6 per. Now it will probably take 8+ per.

Edited January 29, 2019 by jame