Playing themselves out of a playoff spot.

[GASabresIUFAN]

The Sabres have officially become sellers at the deadline.  The playoff spot was nice while it lasted, but Jbot's failure to support this team when the injuries struck has finally killed this year's squad after this terrible showing against the Oliers. Oh well another wasted season.

[LGR4GM]

I do not agree that Jbott failed to support this team. 

[Scottysabres]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

The Sabres have officially become sellers at the deadline.  The playoff spot was nice while it lasted, but Jbot's failure to support this team when the injuries struck has finally killed this year's squad after this terrible showing against the Oliers. Oh well another wasted season.

I keep coming back to this. Eichel, Reinhart going on 4 yrs with not even a sniff of success. Risto and Girgs as well as others longer. Their entire NHL careers without success, it has to wear on them, you know it does.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Oh look, some GMs are finding deals.  Ducks and Stars - Cogliano for Shore.  

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I do not agree that Jbott failed to support this team. 

What moves did he make?  Did he bring up kids to see if they could add a spark upfront?  Did he make a trade to find a center?  

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Oh look, some GMs are finding deals.  Ducks and Stars - Cogliano for Shore.  

What moves did he make?  Did he bring up kids to see if they could add a spark upfront?  Did he make a trade to find a center?  

You are assuming there was a move to make that he didn't. I have seen no evidence of any teams making moves like we are talking about. The prices I guarantee are currently too high. So unless you are willing to trade our first and Nylander for Coyle, no Botterill hasn't failed the team. 

Cogliano has 11 points and a negative corsi. Not sure how that helps us much. Further more Cogliano is a LW who has taken a handful of faceoffs this year. We don't need another mediocre LW. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by LGR4GM

[darksabre]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Oh look, some GMs are finding deals.  Ducks and Stars - Cogliano for Shore.  

What moves did he make?  Did he bring up kids to see if they could add a spark upfront?  Did he make a trade to find a center?  

Citing trash deals like the Cogliano trade really isn't helping your case lol

[Doohicksie]

Eh.  I guess I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

There's still almost half a season to play.

We're 3 points behind the Habs with a game in hand.

The Sabres are playing their worst hockey of the year which, just like the winning streak, won't last forever. 

I still think they'll rally and get to a playoff spot.  They're just in a funk right now.

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

Eh.  I guess I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

There's still almost half a season to play.

We're 3 points behind the Habs with a game in hand.

The Sabres are playing their worst hockey of the year which, just like the winning streak, won't last forever. 

I still think they'll rally and get to a playoff spot.  They're just in a funk right now.

We're inching towards "heroic run to 9th" territory, but I'm not panicking as much as it seems other people are.

This team puts good games together, just not consistently. I hope they figure it out. They have the potential.

[...]

12 minutes ago, darksabre said:

We're inching towards "heroic run to 9th" territory, but I'm not panicking as much as it seems other people are.

This team puts good games together, just not consistently. I hope they figure it out. They have the potential.

This is close to a thought I had the other day and decided to backspace out the entire post.  When is it, historically, they start their "Heroic Runs™"?  If you consider that they allowed themselves to drop just below a wildcard spot, and then pick it up like they seem to do after the All Star break, there is still a very good chance they claim a wildcard slot.  

[LTS]

Failing the team implies that the team is not achieving the goals that were set for it.  Keep in mind, their goals are not the same as your goals.  You may have wanted the Sabres to be that playoff contender.  You may have felt even more strongly about it after a 10 game winning streak.

The Sabres were not set to be that team this year and I find nothing wrong with the current trajectory.  The team was always setup to be taking the playoff step next year.  This year belongs to the Leafs/Lightning/Bruins.

Next year the Leafs have many questions about how to keep the roster together.

Next year the Lightning have to figure out how to keep their roster together.

The Bruins are old.

The Sabres will be putting a few more younger players and perhaps find another top roster player like they did Skinner into the lineup.  We know they still need depth and hopefully they'll have more of it next year.

I think there will continue to be a philosophical difference between fans as to whether or not the right play is to trade players to try and make the playoffs this year versus establish the solid foundation for next year.  The team is not a joke this year and has shown flashes of what it can be.  It's not there yet, but trying to make it there this season isn't necessarily the right thing either.

We'll go round and round on this I am sure.  But until there is evidence that there are moves that could help this team both now and long term I am fine with what is happening.  I am sure the players want to win, but I think they'd rather be winning for multiple seasons rather than win this year and then suddenly be back to losing because the team management reached too far.

[GASabresIUFAN]

6-10-3 since the end of November.  Included in those 10 loses are 5 games the Sabres should win, but instead got blown out in 4 of them.  6-2 L to Philly at home, 5-2 L to Fla at home and then road loses to Car (4-3), Stl (4-1) and now Edm (7-2).  This is a bad hockey team right now, especially with Hutton and Ullmark no longer playing at their best.  

Unless some changes are made, I think we are seeing our team for the rest of the season.

Sad, but true.

[OverPowerYou]

I think It's time they stop investing in the future and trade some of our draft picks for established players. I woke up this morning and realized its 2019. They haven't been to the playoffs since 2011 and haven't won a playoff series in 12 years. This is chartering on Buffalo Bills playoff drought territory. Teams like LA and Chicago may have some veteran pieces to give up that's could show this team some real leadership 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, OverPowerYou said:

I think It's time they stop investing in the future and trade some of our draft picks for established players. I woke up this morning and realized its 2019. They haven't been to the playoffs since 2011 and haven't won a playoff series in 12 years. This is chartering on Buffalo Bills playoff drought territory. Teams like LA and Chicago may have some veteran pieces to give up that's could show this team some real leadership 

Oh so exactly what they did in 2015. Again, how did that work out? 

Which players? Name the names you want. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by LGR4GM

[Ross Rhea]

Sure HCPH has them passing better by it I'm not sold on his defensive style. They let guys with or without the puck skate uncontested right down the slot. I think teams have figured this out and until they stop backing up to the goalie and actually take a body and stop the freewheeling in the slot  its gonna keep happening.

[Brennan Huff]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

We're inching towards "heroic run to 9th" territory, but I'm not panicking as much as it seems other people are.

This team puts good games together, just not consistently. I hope they figure it out. They have the potential.

I’m in straight panic mode and I’m about to start burning jerseys/memorabilia...

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Ross Rhea said:

Sure HCPH has them passing better by it I'm not sold on his defensive style. They let guys with or without the puck skate uncontested right down the slot. I think teams have figured this out and until they stop backing up to the goalie and actually take a body and stop the freewheeling in the slot  its gonna keep happening.

uncontested zone entries are a problem especially on the PK. 

[...]

48 minutes ago, Ross Rhea said:

Sure HCPH has them passing better by it I'm not sold on his defensive style. They let guys with or without the puck skate uncontested right down the slot. I think teams have figured this out and until they stop backing up to the goalie and actually take a body and stop the freewheeling in the slot  its gonna keep happening.

Many on the roster simply do not wish to play a heavy game.  It's clearly not something that is easy to teach or learn.  When we draft or acquire players, they need to naturally play a heavy game - hit, want to battle one-on-one for the puck, not afraid to get dirty on the boards and by the goalie. 

This is key, in my mind.  We have too many players that simply shirk the physical side of the game, seemingly too afraid or not confident enough to engage the enemy player in a physical manner.  They're too focused on their skill, thinking that is the only way they're going to succeed.

This is no doubt the result of the changing culture in hockey, and JBots needs to avoid players who might have high skill, but are unable or unwilling to play a, or play in a, physical game.

And, no, before some of you blow the concept out of proportion, I'm not talking about checking players through the glass on a routine basis or fights every period. I'm just talking about a game that features more physical engagement relative to the situation on the ice. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by ...
dork

[Scottysabres]

They can still make the playoffs, but they have to find chemistry, heart, soul, grit (had this during the streak) and most important of all, better players.

There needs to be a deal or 2, if even only for the 3rd line. Botterill threw a fit at the end of last season over performance. Have to think after last nights debacle his office needs renovation.

[Weave]

52 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Oh so exactly what they did in 2015. Again, how did that work out? 

Which players? Name the names you want. 

It’s only exaclty what they did in 2015 if it is TM making the trades for the same assets.  

Every trade of draft picks for veterans doesn’t have the same expectations that Murrays trades had.

[Scottysabres]

2 minutes ago, ... said:

Many on the roster simply do not wish to play a heavy game.  It's clearly not something that is easy to teach or learn.  When we draft or acquire players, they need to naturally play a heavy game - hit, want to battle one-on-one for the puck, not afraid to get dirty on the boards and by the goalie. 

This is key, in my mind.  We have too many players that simply shirk the physical side of the game, seemingly too afraid or not confident enough to engage the enemy player in a physical manner.  They're too focused on their skill and thinking that is the only way they're going to succeed.

This is no doubt the result of the changing culture in hockey, and JBots needs to avoid players who might have high skill, but are unable or unwilling to play a, or play in a, physical game.

And, no, before some of blow the concept out of proportion, I'm not talking about checking players through the glass on a routine basis or fights every period. I'm just talking about a game that features more physical engagement relative to the situation on the ice. 

This is spot on @...

[darksabre]

11 minutes ago, ... said:

Many on the roster simply do not wish to play a heavy game.  It's clearly not something that is easy to teach or learn.  When we draft or acquire players, they need to naturally play a heavy game - hit, want to battle one-on-one for the puck, not afraid to get dirty on the boards and by the goalie. 

This is key, in my mind.  We have too many players that simply shirk the physical side of the game, seemingly too afraid or not confident enough to engage the enemy player in a physical manner.  They're too focused on their skill, thinking that is the only way they're going to succeed.

This is no doubt the result of the changing culture in hockey, and JBots needs to avoid players who might have high skill, but are unable or unwilling to play a, or play in a, physical game.

And, no, before some of you blow the concept out of proportion, I'm not talking about checking players through the glass on a routine basis or fights every period. I'm just talking about a game that features more physical engagement relative to the situation on the ice. 

Not disagreeing, but pointing out that I think it's difficult to predict which players are going to play "heavy" as they develop when you're drafting them as teenagers. Pretty much all NHL rookies seem to need time to really develop that NHL level physical game. Veteran players tend to "harden" themselves, but it does take some time. Even guys like Chara. 

I think this team's biggest problem with respect to physicality is that a lot of players simply haven't had the time to develop it yet. Look at how much tougher Risto is on the puck now? Or Girgensons? Reinhart and Eichel are arguably still more "perimeter" skill guys who aren't mucking every shift, but they do it more than they used to.

[...]

30 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Not disagreeing, but pointing out that I think it's difficult to predict which players are going to play "heavy" as they develop when you're drafting them as teenagers. Pretty much all NHL rookies seem to need time to really develop that NHL level physical game. Veteran players tend to "harden" themselves, but it does take some time. Even guys like Chara. 

I think this team's biggest problem with respect to physicality is that a lot of players simply haven't had the time to develop it yet. Look at how much tougher Risto is on the puck now? Or Girgensons? Reinhart and Eichel are arguably still more "perimeter" skill guys who aren't mucking every shift, but they do it more than they used to.

Good points. I don't disagree that some can learn it - as in they figure out that the only way to get things done is to play the game a certain way. But I think the capability is always there.  Some, or a lot, don't seem capable...ever.

Risto, as an example, always struck me as a kid who would develop a physical game.  Dahlin is following in his footsteps and he will be a beast, bank on that.

Samson will never develop the physical game he needs to be a proper net-front presence - I don't "see" that in his psychology, he doesn't have an angry or mean streak.  He needs it to be more effective on the boards.

Eichel, has the tools and the angry, mean streak.  He has a psychological barrier to break down, still.  There are flashes of it, though.

I'm not going to go through all of them, but let's look at someone like ERod.  He's the king of the stretch-out-your-arm-and-stick-as-far-as-possible poke check, defensive style.  Dude never takes the body.  If he developed a proper physical game he could become indispensable.

I think Elie plays a decent physical game, Bogo, McCabe and Risto play a great physical game.

On the whole, I don't see our top 3 lines really playing much of a physical game at all and it's the reason teams walk all over us.  The only time they don't is when the level of physical game is matched, like in the NJ game.

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by ...
clarification.

[Cityo'Rasmii]

+Larry

[...]

4 minutes ago, Cityo'Rasmii said:

+Larry

Larry and Girgs go there, for sure.  That's what makes them effective.

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 hours ago, darksabre said:

Citing trash deals like the Cogliano trade really isn't helping your case lol

Actually it supports my argument perfectly.  Shore is a proven 30+ pt center who has 17 pts ytd and frankly is playing better then any center on our roster not named Eichel.  He would have been a very reasonable and not overly costly replacement for Berglund, is only 24 year old and therefore might have a longer term future here if it worked out.  

Also Cogliano is a 900 game NHLer.  He has had 9+ 10+ goal seasons and is usually a 30-40 pt guy.  Also not a trash player.  

Sorry @darksabre but this isn't a trash deal.  It't a depth deal to enhance struggling teams.  Sound familiar.  

Edited January 15, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN