GDT - Maple Leaves @ Sabres - December 4, 2018 - 7:30 PM (EST)

[Brawndo]

Interesting Fact the Maple Leafs and Rangers passed on drafting Mike Bossy twice in the First Round in 1977. Unfortunately the Sabres  passed as well.

[shrader]

1 minute ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Regular season?  I thought Bossy still held that.

For a full career, yes.  I trimmed down Wayne's number to his first 10 seasons, the same number that Bossy played.  Like I said, not all that scientific, but I wanted to at least somehow factor in that Gretzky played into the trap era and Bossy's back shortened his career.

[bobs0108]

33 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Isn't the best pure goal scorer in the NHL currently named Patrik Laine? 

Him and Mathews are the next great scores in time just a matter who takes the crown from AO

49 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Sir. SIR. Alex Ovechkin would like a word with you. 

I think he is currently the best do to how long he has been doing it but Mathews might be able to surpass him in time. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, shrader said:

For a full career, yes.  I trimmed down Wayne's number to his first 10 seasons, the same number that Bossy played.  Like I said, not all that scientific, but I wanted to at least somehow factor in that Gretzky played into the trap era and Bossy's back shortened his career.

Gotcha.

?

[Derrico]

26 minutes ago, IKnowPhysics said:

I know the desert dogs on a whole were awful, but nonetheless, Dahlin looks better than Oliver Ekman-Larsson did at this age.

Franchise defenseman projection confirmed.

How long have we waited now for that franchise dman?  Ironic the year were not tanking we pick first.  Risto can soon play number 2 min and be better for it.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

6 minutes ago, Derrico said:

How long have we waited now for that franchise dman?  Ironic the year were not tanking we pick first.  Risto can soon play number 2 min and be better for it.

Have the Sabres ever had one?

Legit question.  We have had some very good ones over the years, but a true 'franchise' dman?

Housley?  Maybe.  I think he was gifted offensively, but otherwise flawed.  Therefore, not one.

Who else?

[WildCard]

5 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Have the Sabres ever had one?

Legit question.  We have had some very good ones over the years, but a true 'franchise' dman?

Housley?  Maybe.  I think he was gifted offensively, but otherwise flawed.  Therefore, not one.

Who else?

I think there's a difference between a franchise dman and the best in the league. McKee, Teppo, Cambell...weren't all of those guys franchise, true #1's?

[TrueBlueGED]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Well, AO is the obvious challenger for the crown, but Matthews is the one IMHO.

Matthews has yet to have a 50 goal season. He may well get there as soon as this season, but he hasn't yet. Ovechkin has 7 of them, including 7 Rocket Richard trophies, and a 60-goal season. To paraphrase Bill Parcells, let's put away the anointing oils.

[shrader]

1 minute ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Matthews has yet to have a 50 goal season. He may well get there as soon as this season, but he hasn't yet. Ovechkin has 7 of them, including 7 Rocket Richard trophies, and a 60-goal season. To paraphrase Bill Parcells, let's put away the anointing oils.

And Ovechkin did that right out of the gate, the second he stepped into the league.  Beyond that though, it goes right back to the whole Bossy/Gretzky thing, longevity matters too.  There's any number of things that could happen to derail Matthews/Laine.  They've started well, but only time will tell.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

18 minutes ago, WildCard said:

I think there's a difference between a franchise dman and the best in the league. McKee, Teppo, Cambell...weren't all of those guys franchise, true #1's?

For the Sabres I would say so, but I don't think they would be viewed as such outside of Buffalo.  Soupy?  Maybe.

There is not a hard and fast definition, but it is commonly understood that a true franchise dman would be the one you would build your team around, or any team in the league would be willing to do that.  I don't think any Sabre Dman ever would be that.  Until now that is.  I really think that any team would be willing to build around Dahlin.

[TrueBlueGED]

5 minutes ago, shrader said:

And Ovechkin did that right out of the gate, the second he stepped into the league.  Beyond that though, it goes right back to the whole Bossy/Gretzky thing, longevity matters too.  There's any number of things that could happen to derail Matthews/Laine.  They've started well, but only time will tell.

For sure. Even barring injury, the natural decline of age is possible. Ovechkin won the Richard in his age-30 season. That's absurd. And let's not forget Ovechkin might have 2-3 more 50-goal season if Washington didn't spend two years sabotaging his offense and the NHL didn't miss half of a season.

[nfreeman]

I can't argue with any of the above posts about AO.  At his peak he was a force of nature.  But I think when all is said and done, Matthews will have established himself as the better goalscorer.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, WildCard said:

I think there's a difference between a franchise dman and the best in the league. McKee, Teppo, Cambell...weren't all of those guys franchise, true #1's?

IMHO, not one of those guys was a true #1 D-man during his stay w/ the Sabres.  I would further claim that the Sabres have never had a true #1 franchise defenseman.  Schoenfeld or Zhitnik probably came closest.   Housley was an offensive defenseman; Ramsey a defensive D-man.  They've never had that true elite all around defenseman.

[Wyldnwoody44]

But how? Matthews will hold out for more money, therefore hurting his goal scoring prowess. 

 

 

Love, pi 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

IMHO, not one of those guys was a true #1 D-man during his stay w/ the Sabres.  I would further claim that the Sabres have never had a true #1 franchise defenseman.  Schoenfeld or Zhitnik probably came closest.   Housley was an offensive defenseman; Ramsey a defensive D-man.  They've never had that true elite all around defenseman.

Until now.

Dahlin is still developing, obviously, but he fits the bill, unless something unforeseen happens.  He is a Dman that any team in the league would be willing to build their team around, IMHO.

1 minute ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

But how? Matthews will hold out for more money, therefore hurting his goal scoring prowess. 

 

 

Love, pi 

Hey, look who has made bail.  Thanks, Eleven for pulling all the strings that needed pulling.

[Stoner]

3 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

This was very much an upsetting game, and not in a "OMG SABRES SUCK" or "F U SABRES" kind of way. It was just a dagger to the heart that was so tantalizingly close to being pure ecstasy. 

Matthews with 2 seconds left? Leafs fans in KBC jumping for joy? ***** the hockey gods. The Sabres don't need your *****. 

I know the Sabres are as upset as any of us, and it's going to mean good things for us. 

I hope they're more upset than the fans.

[Taro T]

59 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Until now.

Dahlin is still developing, obviously, but he fits the bill, unless something unforeseen happens.  He is a Dman that any team in the league would be willing to build their team around, IMHO.

Hey, look who has made bail.  Thanks, Eleven for pulling all the strings that needed pulling.

Yes.  In all likelihood, the Sabres have FINALLY found the guy that will become a true #1.

But for now, it's ok that he's a 4 with flashes of more.

[Randall Flagg]

Matthews-Ovechkin is a fun discussion so I'm going to say some things. Some might have been said, and the conversation sounds over, but I missed out on the fun so deal with it. 

In Matthews' rookie year he scored 40 goals, which was 3rd. He was 5th in goals per game. In Ovie's rookie year, he had 52, which was 3rd, and he was 5th in goals per game.

In Matthews' sophomore year he was injured, scored 34, but was 2nd in goals per game. He missed enough games for that projection to feel a little dubious. Ovie was 4th in goals and goals per game in his 2nd year.

Matthews has played 14 games and scored 15 goals so far in his third year. He is shooting 10% higher than every other player in the top 10, at 30%, which probably won't last 32 games, even Karlsson last year was only at 23%. But the story isn't finished yet. 

Ovie's 3rd season he freaking destroyed the NHL, scoring 25% more goals than the second best scorer did. He had 65 goals that year, with a shooting percentage 2% higher than his career normal. Matthews is double his previous career average right now. 

Furthermore, Ovechkin went on to dominate this statistical category like no other in this era. He has 7 Rockets in the last 11 years, with no other player owning more than 1 in that span on their own (Stamkos/Crosby share one, and each have one on their own. Perry was the other winner.)

This includes times where Ovie was scoring 50 when nobody else could hit 40. 

Matthews has barely any separation from the guy taken right after him in his draft, and has not separated from the pack yet, but looks to be having a year that could wind up being what Ovie's third year was. For him to come close to Ovie, much less pass him, the next decade of his career needs to be utter domination of the goal scoring stat: 

Since the beginning of the 07-08 season, Ovechkin has 529 goals. The next best goal scorer in the entire world in that span has 358. This is nearly 50% better goal scoring than the NEXT BEST GOAL SCORER in this span. The consistency here is utterly ludicrous. Matthews will not come close to this in a league with Patrik Laine, especially since Auston appears to be the one that can't stay healthy. 

Since goal scoring is higher than it was in 07-08, I want to see 60+ goals from AM (well, 50+ since he already missed a month) to consider him an equal to Ovie through this point, and then I need to see domination over peers that only Gretzky/Mario can claim better than over the next decade, and only THEN will Matthews even begin to make it a debate. 

Good luck Auston. 

[WildCard]

Agreed with everything but your last part Flagg. Good post

[pi2000]

This is the best version of AM we'll ever see.    

[TheAud]

32 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

This is the best version of AM we'll ever see.    

Agreed. He'll likely drop down from 1.07 goals per game to more a more pedestrian 0.75 goals per game for the next decade or so.  ?

[Stoner]

Going from Eichel being behind McDavid to Eichel being behind McDavid and Matthews is going to drive a lot of people bonkers. Most of all, probably, Jack.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Just now, PASabreFan said:

Going from Eichel being behind McDavid to Eichel being behind McDavid and Matthews is going to drive a lot of people bonkers. Most of all, probably, Jack.

I do not believe that to be the case.

[Stoner]

Just now, New Scotland (NS) said:

I do not believe that to be the case.

You value something other than point production then.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

13 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

You value something other than point production then.

Yes.  Yes, I do.

And their point production, I believe, will end being comparable long-term.