New York State Gun Bill - WIVB Report

[SABRES 0311]

https://www.wivb.com/news/state/new-legislation-calls-for-social-media-search-before-pistol-permit-in-ny-1/1614323056

In the history of mankind since the development of firearms, when did mass shootings become so prevalent? What other social issues (health, education) have arisen around the same time? Coincidence?

Why was it so easy for veterans to get PTSD status? Why do drug courts allow repeat offenders go to rehab instead of prison? How are both connected? Illicit drug use and PTSD. 

If 2A was meant to prevent government overreach, who would be best suited to defend/train? How are rights and the Constitution taught/affect interpretation for future generations.

Do commiters of violent crimes normally announce their intentions on social media? Who does this bill really target? Is NY a test bed given leftist dominance? How has gun control and politics unfolded in history?

Keep going New York. You and California are pioneers of a free nation.

[Eleven]

Second Amendment conversations always are are fun here.  I mean it.  We have a pretty diverse range of opinions on the topic and we have some members who are quite liberal but who also love to shoot for sport.  Lately, that group includes me.  I really enjoy target shooting with a rifle.  I don't mind shooting trap or skeet, but I am horrible at it.

Let's start with your premise that the 2A was designed to prevent government overreach.  If so, we've already lost.  We have allowed the government to prevent us from owning the same types of weapons that it has.  So 2A has been completely eviscerated and is meaningless in the context of preventing  government overreach.  The only way a successful revolt happens in this country is if the government turns on itself, e.g., a military coup.  You and I don't have nukes, tanks, automatic weapons, bombs, chemical weapons, and a whole lot of nasty stuff that the government has that we probably don't know about.  The government would win a battle against the populace 100 times out of 100.

Since 2A is meaningless in that context, what is the harm in restricting handgun purchases?  Mass shooters don't always announce that they're going to go on a rampage, to be sure, but from memory, social media posts have been predictive of violent behavior in many of these cases.  The obvious main feature of a handgun, as opposed to a long gun, is the ability to conceal it from other human beings.  It follows that the obvious main purpose of a handgun, as opposed to a long gun, is to kill human beings.  I have no problem allowing authorities to dig into social media posts before issuing someone a permit to carry a device, the main purpose of which is to kill human beings.

I don't see your connections among PTSD, drug use, and mental health.  I do recall when we had better mental health care in this country, and I also recall the president who shut it down.  Somewhat ironically, that president was shot by a mentally ill person armed with a handgun.  Both the president and the shooter survived.  The president's press secretary did not fare so well, and so the press secretary quickly changed his views on handgun control before ultimately dying from the gunshot wound years later.

I do see a connection between radical conservatism--especially white nationalism--and mass shootings, though, as I discussed in another thread.

So yes, keep going New York!  We are saving lives!

(Edited to change "you" to "we" in the last sentence.)

Edited November 24, 2018 by Eleven

[LTS]

The entire concept of this social media bill is garbage.

How many investigators do they need to hire and who gets paid to look into it?

"Please list your social media accounts:"  - I have no social media accounts.

Now someone needs to verify if I am telling the truth?  How much work do you need to do to find my Twitter account or Facebook or some other social media platform where I don't link it to the same email or use my real name?

Yeah... 

[SABRES 0311]

The idea that because citizens do not have CBRN weapons does not eviscerate 2A. What does is incremental restriction on law abiding citizens eventually. Didn’t some politician recently say something about the government having CBRN weapons which makes any act against the government short lived? Do you think the military would fire those weapons? I do not. Any order to do so would result in the military turning on the politicians. 

Medical. I believe there are those people with PTSD and it is an unfortunate side affect of wars. However I question the diagnosis of of a few military personnel, most notably my brother. What I am worried about is the compensation  for PTSD being used to entice more claims. Again based on personal experience and not lumping everyone affected. Getting out of the military is stressful by itself. Add improper cool down from a deployment right before transition and now you have an overstressed person who goes to the VA. This is where it gets a little conspiracy theory like.

If former military were to be seen as a civil threat to an overreaching government, what would be a way to limit their access to firearms? If they were formally diagnosed with a disorder which legally restricts, at some point, their access. 

Education. How many gun owners and non gun owners actually receive formal training? I have been to enough ranges to question Darwin’s Theory. I have also heard politicians mischaracterize weapons like they are the boogeyman. 

So because someone goes nuts I have to deal with added restrictions if I move back to NY? The gun doesn’t do the killing, messed up people do. Can we agree on that? I agree the types of people you reference are dangerous but I think nationalism and white nationalism get erroneously lumped together. I did a five second Google search and below is what came up. Absolutely nothing racial at all. It does say extreme patriotism and feeling of superiority over other countries. 

Please tell me in your opinion what type of weapon should I, someone who holds the idea we are all created equal by God in high regard be allowed to own? This is a serious question with no backhanded meaning. 

Had to edit. If you think extreme conservatism is a threat and rightfully so, what are your thoughts on Antifa, Maxine Waters, and liberals burning store fronts and rioting? One is an action arm, one is an instigator, and the other is a result of temper tantrums mostly by beta males.

nationalism

/ˈnaʃ(ə)n(ə)lɪz(ə)m/

noun

1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.

   "an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"

   synonyms:

   patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism, nationality; More

   • an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

     plural noun: nationalisms

     "playing with right-wing nationalism"
   • advocacy of political independence for a particular country.

     "Scottish nationalism"

Edited November 24, 2018 by RambosKnife

[Eleven]

5 hours ago, RambosKnife said:

The idea that because citizens do not have CBRN weapons does not eviscerate 2A. What does is incremental restriction on law abiding citizens eventually. Didn’t some politician recently say something about the government having CBRN weapons which makes any act against the government short lived? Do you think the military would fire those weapons? I do not. Any order to do so would result in the military turning on the politicians. 

Medical. I believe there are those people with PTSD and it is an unfortunate side affect of wars. However I question the diagnosis of of a few military personnel, most notably my brother. What I am worried about is the compensation  for PTSD being used to entice more claims. Again based on personal experience and not lumping everyone affected. Getting out of the military is stressful by itself. Add improper cool down from a deployment right before transition and now you have an overstressed person who goes to the VA. This is where it gets a little conspiracy theory like.

If former military were to be seen as a civil threat to an overreaching government, what would be a way to limit their access to firearms? If they were formally diagnosed with a disorder which legally restricts, at some point, their access. 

Education. How many gun owners and non gun owners actually receive formal training? I have been to enough ranges to question Darwin’s Theory. I have also heard politicians mischaracterize weapons like they are the boogeyman. 

So because someone goes nuts I have to deal with added restrictions if I move back to NY? The gun doesn’t do the killing, messed up people do. Can we agree on that? I agree the types of people you reference are dangerous but I think nationalism and white nationalism get erroneously lumped together. I did a five second Google search and below is what came up. Absolutely nothing racial at all. It does say extreme patriotism and feeling of superiority over other countries. 

Please tell me in your opinion what type of weapon should I, someone who holds the idea we are all created equal by God in high regard be allowed to own? This is a serious question with no backhanded meaning. 

Had to edit. If you think extreme conservatism is a threat and rightfully so, what are your thoughts on Antifa, Maxine Waters, and liberals burning store fronts and rioting? One is an action arm, one is an instigator, and the other is a result of temper tantrums mostly by beta males.

nationalism

/ˈnaʃ(ə)n(ə)lɪz(ə)m/

noun

1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.

   "an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"

   synonyms:

   patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism, nationality; More

   • an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

     plural noun: nationalisms

     "playing with right-wing nationalism"
   • advocacy of political independence for a particular country.

     "Scottish nationalism"

The Sabrespace interface (the Sabreface?) makes it difficult to respond to longer posts, so I'm going to just try to number some paragraphs, if that's ok.

1.  We are in agreement on the facts, but not the interpretation, it seems.  The visceral incremental limitation on citizens passed the critical point a long, long time ago.  We don't have a chance against the government.  As for the second of your rhetorical questions, Kent State isn't that long ago, and certainly Colin Kapepernick's cause is recent.

2.  I'm still not sure where you're headed here, but I do know that VA hospitals are ridiculous.  Walter Reed was in a state of misery when I lived in DC, well before it became a national issue.  And the VA hospital here in Buffalo is so pathetic that a good friend of mine quit--despite the fact that he, himself, is a veteran--and went to practice medicine elsewhere.  But, again, I'm not sure what this has to do with handgun control or mass shootings.

3.  Again, my apologies, but I don't see the former military connection.

4.  I don't know how many owners have formal training.  Last time I was at a range, I took my dad shooting for Fathers' Day.  It was a target range.  This, of course, should mean pistols and rifles.  Yet the idiots in the lane next to us were shooting paper targets with a shotgun.  At ten yards, I might add.  WTF?  And of course, their targets weren't bulls-eye targets.  They were humanoid targets.  Morons.

5.  Yes, messed up people do the killing.  That's why we shouldn't want them to have handguns.  If a messed up person is carrying a long gun, I can see the gun.  I can get the hell out of there.  If a messed up person is carrying a handgun, I probably cannot see it and I would not be likely to get the hell out of there.

6.  According to my strict reading of 2A, you should be allowed to own whatever weapons you want.  Again, however, we have allowed the government to eviscerate our rights in that respect--and not just in New York and California.  (Alluding to your username, I note that John Rambo surrendered at the end of the First Blood!)  We all are created equal by God, no question. But for too long, we have allowed the government to have weapons that we cannot have.  It is pointless, now, to argue that we are created equal.  We have created inequality here on Earth.  (And I'm not sure God wants us to have weapons, anyway.  I'm very Catholic, so this might be a very Catholic opinion.  Sorry!)

7.  This also was addressed in the other thread (the one in which I addressed mass killings), and maybe I'll try to find a way to move it here.  Antifa isn't really a "thing" in America--it is in some South American countries, a couple of European countries, and certainly in a Eurasian one (Russia).  Even the weak "US Antifa," if it exists, causes property damage and little else.  While that is criminal and reprehensible, it does not result in the loss of life.  A great example of this would be found in Todd Tucker, Notre Dame vs. the Klan:  How the Fighting Irish Defied the KKK, Notre Dame Press, 2018 edition.  (Sorry for the citation format.  I don't know how to do small caps on SabreSpace.)   The "Antifa" of the situation, the Notre Dame kids, broke a few windows and famously extinguished an electric burning cross.  The Klan, on the other hand, well, we know what they did.

8.  Let's not confuse nationalism with white nationalism.  My first post in this thread mentioned white nationalism.  They are very, very different things.  I'm not sure I agree with every aspect of nationalism, but I'm certain that I disagree with every aspect of white nationalism.  I refer to the same source as I did in 7.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Eleven

[SABRES 0311]

I don’t have an answer to the gun issue but mental health is at the center of it. I guess as the world’s population increases so will the number of crazies. I predict increased gun restrictions will fail to meet the intent we are told. 

If NY wants access to people’s social media then I guess it’s not my problem. Good luck to you guys and I sincerely hope I am wrong on my prediction. 

[darksabre]

I'm not a 2nd Amendment preacher by any stretch, but a law requiring that I disclose social media accounts in order to get a pistol permit solves, what, exactly?

How many crimes are committed right now in NY by legal pistol permit holders? 

The lax gun laws of other states that allow crazies to get guns they shouldn't have do not relate to NYS and any of our gun violence related issues. We do a pretty good job here. Most of our state's gun problems are related to firearms that come here illegally from out of state. 

Forced disclosure of social media accounts is a slippery slope, especially if those social media accounts are "private". What other private writings should the government be able to demand? Will I be compelled to surrender analog documents containing my personal thoughts, or thoughts that I only wish friends/family to see? 

[Samson's Flow]

On 11/26/2018 at 10:30 AM, darksabre said:

I'm not a 2nd Amendment preacher by any stretch, but a law requiring that I disclose social media accounts in order to get a pistol permit solves, what, exactly?

How many crimes are committed right now in NY by legal pistol permit holders? 

The lax gun laws of other states that allow crazies to get guns they shouldn't have do not relate to NYS and any of our gun violence related issues. We do a pretty good job here. Most of our state's gun problems are related to firearms that come here illegally from out of state. 

Forced disclosure of social media accounts is a slippery slope, especially if those social media accounts are "private". What other private writings should the government be able to demand? Will I be compelled to surrender analog documents containing my personal thoughts, or thoughts that I only wish friends/family to see? 

First Bold: I agree that NYS does a good job with gun laws generally and it is probably more productive to normalize these efforts among other more lax states.

Second Bold: While I couldn't follow your rabbit hole on the swearing thread, i'm with you on this one. Disclosure of social media accounts is a slippery slope towards totalitarian big brother government surveillance. That's some George Orwell stuff.

[darksabre]

6 minutes ago, Samson's Flow said:

First Bold: I agree that NYS does a good job with gun laws generally and it is probably more productive to normalize these efforts among other more lax states.

Second Bold: While I couldn't follow your rabbit hole on the swearing thread, i'm with you on this one. Disclosure of social media accounts is a slippery slope towards totalitarian big brother government surveillance. That's some George Orwell stuff.

I think I tried to rush my shot a little bit in the swearing thread and I lost the handle ?

[Eleven]

I must apologize, and especially to @RambosKnife.  I thought the bill required the applicant to disclose social media accounts.  That is reasonable to me.

It turns out, according to Rod Watson's column yesterday, that the bill requires the applicant to disclose her/his username and password.  That is patently unreasonable.  And Rod Watson is not exactly prone to advancing conservative agendas; he is TBN's racial affairs columnist.  The fact that he brought it up (he is dead set against it) was especially striking.

I had no idea.

I still support controls on access to handguns, for the reasons above, or, if not, unfettered access to ALL weapons, again for the reasons above, but this proposal is not a reasonable control on access to handguns.  This needs to be scrapped pronto.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Eleven

[SABRES 0311]

8 hours ago, Eleven said:

I must apologize, and especially to @RambosKnife.  I thought the bill required the applicant to disclose social media accounts.  That is reasonable to me.

It turns out, according to Rod Watson's column yesterday, that the bill requires the applicant to disclose her/his username and password.  That is patently unreasonable.  And Rod Watson is not exactly prone to advancing conservative agendas; he is TBN's racial affairs columnist.  The fact that he brought it up (he is dead set against it) was especially striking.

I had no idea.

I still support controls on access to handguns, for the reasons above, or, if not, unfettered access to ALL weapons, again for the reasons above, but this proposal is not a reasonable control on access to handguns.  This needs to be scrapped pronto.

Some common ground. I don’t see an answer to gun control everyone will be happy with but some people want more control in general. It’s as if they use highly charged topics like this to test how far they can go. 

What happens if this passes? What else would require your username/password in the future?

[LTS]

The entire concept is farcical.  If it passes I will move from this state even if it means I must get a divorce.

That said, were I in the situation where they asked me to turn over my social media account information I would simply say that I do not have a social media accounts.  How are they going to prove that I do?

What department will be in charge of investigating and proving it?

 

[Weave]

What disappoints me most about this bill is that, while unlikely to become law (and it is totally unreasonable in any way), it fans the flames of those who are wont to cry that the Democrats are going to take their guns away.  It motivates the NRA crowd in big ways. 

Pointless and counterproductive.

[Weave]

How does that relate to the NY gun bill?

[Eleven]

10 hours ago, ubkev said:

So, it turns out the cop who was killed in the California night club/bar shooting(how many shootings ago was that?) was killed by friendly fire.

 

7 hours ago, Weave said:

How does that relate to the NY gun bill?

It might, in some way, or it might not, but you've got to quote ubkev for him to get the notification...

Edited December 9, 2018 by Eleven

[ubkev]

8 hours ago, Weave said:

How does that relate to the NY gun bill?

My bad, forgot there was a better gun related thread to put it under. Will delete.