GDT - Sabres @ Pittsburgh - November 19, 2018 - 7:00 PM (EST) - 8:00 PM (AST)

[Eleven]

5 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

I proudly own it. Anything written otherwise to satisfy a deal I made with the Hockey Gods will be in jest. Terry did meddle. There's nothing to rub my nose in with things going well for a quarter of a season. And nothing to rub my nose in even if the Sabres win the Cup, unless you think Terry's early meddling was good and led to such an outcome.

I've always given him credit for caring, wanting to win and putting his money where his mouth his. With those three latter elements still in place and Terry IMHO no longer meddling (he's too busy doing so with the Bills) AND what is looking like a very good to great hire he made in Botterill, I am fully prepared to laud him up one side and down the other. It's too early to do so. Just like it's too early for whatever point you're trying to make.

You lost your self-made bet and now you want us to read this nonsensical polemic.  Just show us the card.

[Stoner]

It's Eleven O'Clock!

[nfreeman]

PA may or may not want us to read his love letter to TP, and either way there’s no need to be grouchy about it, but we for dam sure want to read it.  

[Andrew Amerk]

4 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

PA may or may not want us to read his love letter to TP, and either way there’s no need to be grouchy about it, but we for dam sure want to read it.  

I’m just anxious to see if it includes a meme. 

[grinreaper]

4 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

My hatred of those dastardly Flyers knows no bounds.

Then this is for your viewing pleasure. One added note: the word Umbergered was created that night.

 

 

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

It's Eleven O'Clock!

Just show us the card.

[North Buffalo]

2 hours ago, grinreaper said:

Then this is for your viewing pleasure. One added note: the word Umbergered was created that night.

 

 

So how far back do white outs go... looks like WPegs aren't the first... was just wondering the history?

[inkman]

2 hours ago, grinreaper said:

Then this is for your viewing pleasure. One added note: the word Umbergered was created that night.

 

 

That term has never sat well with me. Hey remember when our guy concussed the other teams guy and probably affected his life long term with a brain injury? Good times.  

It was a fun moment but celebrating it using his name as an adjective for bruising his brain is a little much. 

[Hoss]

36 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

So how far back do white outs go... looks like WPegs aren't the first... was just wondering the history?

It sounds like Winnipeg actually was the first team to ever do it. Did it in response to Calgary asking fans to wear all red.

[TrueBlueGED]

22 hours ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Nope.  Like it or not, you're in league with Liger on this nonsense, and you're gonna get made fun of for it.  It's as asinine as PA's trial of Pegula.

Ristolainen is singlehandedly sheltering the rest of the defensemen.  Same as last year, except he's not locked in with a steady partner.  His effort and achievement are commendable.

Go ahead and find where I ever said Risto was useless, or that dumping him and Scandella would improve the team. I'll wait. 

Risto is sheltering the other Dmen, yes. That helps them yes. But that doesn't mean he's good at what he is tasked with. Just as being bad at being Drew Doughty doesn't mean he's bad overall. We have...5 (?) seasons of him getting absolutely caved in at even strength in shots and goals while being tasked with huge minutes in a shutdown role. He's bad at that, not at hockey. He's not a shutdown defender even if his coaches deploy him as one be used they feel they have no other options. Dion Phaneuf was used the same way, and he was similarly had at it. Sure, he was also a front running wuss, but the rest of the comparison stands. 

15 hours ago, ... said:

See the second quote.  After reading the second quote, why did you take the bait?

That lacks the precision one expects of someone who relies on numbers to interpret the world.  It's like a tacit understanding of some arcane system. Wink-wink, all hail Uranus!  What DO you mean? 

Also, note that when you start posting numbers that say the team is "average" or player X is "bad" when the visual of the evening was the team is awesome and player X was a near hero, you're going to get kick-back.  Then to post the "can't a guy enjoy a win" in the same breath - that's exactly what the anti-metric crowd is saying after you post the aforementioned stats.

Just trying to help.

 

 

Because sometimes you can't just walk away when nonsense is being flung about. I literally didn't say anything until several posters decided to bring things up. It's not like I came in after the game and was all "we still suck cuz shots lol." 

14 hours ago, SwampD said:

 

Stats isn’t math, it’s applied math. And I just think it serves no purpose on a fan board other than to be a wet blanket.

While I agree that he still is making some bad decisions with the puck, I’m starting to think that Phil keeps playing him because of his decisions without it. He’s rarely out of position and I think they care more about that right now.

Telling others how they should enjoy their hobby is so cool, man. 

[That Aud Smell]

@TrueBlueGED : Not sure if you addressed it from your perspective, but any sense whether the *recent* metrics have squared with the eye test sense many have (including me) that Risto’s been playing pretty well of late (overall)?

Also: I agree wholeheartedly that Risto deployed as a 1D is generally out of his depth. His efforts, I think, are admirable, if also at times maddening.

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

@TrueBlueGED : Not sure if you addressed it from your perspective, but any sense whether the *recent* metrics have squared with the eye test sense many have (including me) that Risto’s been playing pretty well of late (overall)?

Also: I agree wholeheartedly that Risto deployed as a 1D is generally out of his depth. His efforts, I think, are admirable, if also at times maddening.

Tangent off the word maddening. I think mistakes and ill advised plays can be maddening, but that's what I'm starting to like about this team. They read and react quickly, and mistakes are made. Dahlin might be the best example of it. He pulls the trigger almost instantly. They go for it. And they know that their goaltending has their back. It's a beautiful thing. We had it with Miller and of course we had it with Dom. It's rare. Mistakes! Mayhem! Hockey!

[Randall Flagg]

On 11/19/2018 at 9:33 PM, TrueBlueGED said:

Eichel's shot simply has not been nearly as lethal on the PP since he started shaving length off his stick. I blame  @Randall Flagg

I believe you're onto something here. I also think it's worth it for the ES improvement in tight spaces. It's about time we focus on that part of our play, rather than going nowhere with a ridiculous peeper like in 16-17! 

That game was epic. I was so pissed at the ref when Bogosian was tripped. I actually loved that Phil made the challenge. I'm pretty sure he did it to make the refs stare at what they did, I don't think it had anything to do with the goalie "interference" and I think that's badass. Don't correct me if I'm wrong. 

Scandella has this really freaking weird thing about violently slashing people and it needs to stop. I think that's the third time I've seen him do it in the season and a quarter he's been here.

I really like @Doohickie's take about Pominville. He was really sluggish for a week and a half before the Minnesota game or so. Got spelled with light minutes in the bottom six for a while, and had his legs back the last two games now. If we have a formula for continuing to keep him fresh then we're in a good spot. 

This GDT got kinda ugly towards the end. I'm glad I didn't have internet during the game. It's possible to both acknowledge that Ristolainen had a good game and that single games, weeks, or even months aren't going to change opinions built on five years of hockey, just like good periods don't change opinions on players with 20 games of sample size. People will change their takes over time as the hockey changes, whatever those takes may be, and patience should be exercised for all opinions out there. I saw the "Risto is bad at hockey" take get dismissed as "weak" somewhere - I'm sad that I spent a good 3 hours a few weeks ago making a post on the topic that was never addressed by said poster. I guess that was too weak of me to even be acknowledged. 

Dahlin was crummy through two and it didn't really matter because we have put ourselves in the position that we aren't depending on 18 year olds. This is the single best thing about this season, because of what it will lead to for the next 15. Those moves he pulled in the third, with the confidence to just keep playing even after those first two periods...mother of god 

Hutton's a quirky goalie like they all are. I honestly didn't like his postgame interview. However, IDGAF about postgame interviews, they're meaningless. He was outstanding. 

Kyle Okposo's shift on the tying goal was, by far, the best shift any Sabre has had this season. Phil's best work this year, and the theme of the season, is that very few players are playing in roles they aren't suited for. Having Kyle able to work on getting his game back without needing 50 ES goals from him playing next to Jack has been crucial, and he's responded so well. Just like Larry and Zemgus have responded so well to their well-defined, well-suited jobs. Just forecheck and cycle until the Malkin line gets tired. It was brilliantly executed in this game. Phil got the shot suppressors out there against the Malkin line any chance he could. The only goal scored on them doesn't count, because it happened when another forward was stuck out there with 22/28 because of a lack of opportunity to change. That forward is the one that lost a battle which led directly to the goal being scored, a battle that would have been won by Berglund. They shut down the Malkin line. I hope Phil sees it and sticks with that line. It's the second most important line to this team's success. Phil instantly fixed the bottom six by remembering Reinhart-Sobotka is light years better than Sobotka-literally-anyone-else, and that 22-28-10 are defensive wizards. 

HUGE penalty kills helped us out bigtime. Another place where Vlad, Larry, Zemgus, Bergs thrive in their role. 

Speaking of metrics that worried @That Aud Smell, don't worry That Aud Smell. Our "metrics" are fine, there aren't any red flags. Goal production from Jeff/Jason dipping can easily be replaced by the fact that Jack&Sam, guys that would have combined for 55 last season with a full season from Jack, have just 5 non empty-netters. Of course a winning streak isn't sustainable hockey - the best teams in the league only win 5/8 of their games. If winning streaks were sustainable, there'd be 75-5-2 records in the NHL. The point isn't sustainability of these results, it's banking as many of these points as you can while things are hot so that you can cruise through the rough patches. It's all about banking points when you can. That's what matters. They're games against the two best rosters (IMO) in the league away from being comfortably in the top half of possession metrics. We should all relax and enjoy the wins. Our best hockey of the year came before the streak even started, and we didn't get luck in some of those games. Let's enjoy it while it's here! 

Speaking of Sam, if Sam can do to Tage what he does for Vlad, then we've solved the two things that give us "problematic"-looking metrics. Through 20 games the team was Tage-and-Vlad away from having zero forwards with a tendency of getting hemmed in a lot. Just like Sam with Vlad tilts the ice in our favor as the only combo with Vlad to do so, adding Tage didn't hurt the line, and obviously unlocked Tage's shot for just the 4th time in his 55 games. If that can become regular, then we have no more designated "getting dominated spending 75% of the time clenching our sphincters in the defensive zone" lines that plagued us in Winnipeg, Tampa, etc. I've stopped getting on Phil for playing Tage - if Jason is going to keep him up here (which continues to be the wrong move IMO, I'll need about 30 games of yesterday from Tage to erase the ~500th ranking stats and the eye test that those support that he's built up to this point) he needs to play if you don't want to screw up his development. If we find a line that doesn't get tanked with him on it like the rest do, then keep at it. If it falls apart, though, stahp. This team is at its best when it can focus on rolling 4 lines on a mission and capable, like they've done the last two third periods. There's no coincidence that the third in Minnesota, and the game yesterday, looked like different hockey teams from the one that played in Winnipeg. 

And, the fact that it is two depth players creating perceived metric issues, is a GOOD thing, considering that Jack was the one that liked to be hemmed in before last season. 

And more on the Phil & roles train: pi must be giddy with Jack and Jeff's plus minus. But pi probably understands that Jack and Jeff are, at best, questionable defensive hockey players. Why is it that these guys are thriving at ES? Well, we're taking our two best offensive players, with known defensive issues, and averaging 70% offensive zone starts between them. They're also coming on the ice after rolling 4 lines, particularly the 4th, that are tiring out the other team and maintaining possession, so when they change on the fly they have the puck and the momentum. Jack and Jeff resemble peak Patrick Kane in terms of our propensity to load prime minutes with those guys instead of using prime minutes to help dreadful depth survive, the story of the last two seasons. This was missing last year. Imagine taking Jeff Skinner, our second-best offensive piece, and giving him the most defensive zone starts of any forward to EVER play 1000 minutes? That artificially suppressed the ES production of our second best offensive piece of last season, for little gain with the goaltending we had behind them. A simple glance at his ES production now shows what balance and playing best players together can do. This is not an ROR point, it's a "roles matter as much if not more than the talent level" point. I'd also like to note that we spent 7 games trying to replace that exact ROR role this year with Sobotka. We were 3-4 and had 200 posters jump ship on the season during that stretch. It's no coincidence that after Vegas we dropped the role completely. There is no Sabre currently tasked with the shutdown 2C role we had last year, and I'm glad Phil realized that it wasn't conducive to scoring goals or doing anything particularly well.

Phil is learning and is doing a good job with the players he has, and our biggest complaints are with guys that get 10-14 minutes of ice time, which is a very good thing. This is how Skinner can go from minus a billion to pacing for plus 60 or whatever he's pacing for. He didn't become a defensive phenom, but he is being MAXIMIZED. Maximizing the most important pieces on your roster is how you win with any roster, and Jack, Jeff, Jason, Kyle, almost Casey, 22-28-10, Bogosian, McCabe, Dahlin, Nelson/Beaulieu, and the goalies are all being beautifully purposed. I could say that about maybe 3 players on last year's team. Good things are happening and there are so many places to give credit for that.

Dam son I should probs post during games and not after 

[dudacek]

This is the hockey that the coach has been preaching since day one, in case anyone is on the fence about Phil.

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Tangent off the word maddening. I think mistakes and ill advised plays can be maddening, but that's what I'm starting to like about this team. They read and react quickly, and mistakes are made. Dahlin might be the best example of it. He pulls the trigger almost instantly. They go for it. And they know that their goaltending has their back. It's a beautiful thing. We had it with Miller and of course we had it with Dom. It's rare. Mistakes! Mayhem! Hockey!

Did you see the Tortorella quote on this topic? 
 

 

[Stoner]

14 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Did you see the Tortorella quote on this topic? 
 

 

Interesting. Scoring is up, so mistakes can be overcome? More young players in lineups?

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

Dahlin was crummy through two and it didn't really matter because we have put ourselves in the position that we aren't depending on 18 year olds.

This really stood out to me.

[dudacek]

Mistakes make the game more exciting.

Thats why the WJC has been more entertaining than the NHL for quite some time.

If this is the next evolution of the game, count me in.

[Doohicksie]

32 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Last I checked, you don't get style points in the standings.  If you can win a game 6-5 it counts just as much as a 2-0 defensive gem.

 

[Doohicksie]

High-risk, high-reward hockey is more exciting to watch anyway.  Bogo could have missed the puck at the point and given up an odd-man rush, but he went for the hold in anyway, managed to get it to Okie who set up Mitts for the tying goal.  A Ron Rolston-coached team would have backed off at the point to take away the chance of the odd-man rush, and would have missed a scoring opportunity.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

I really like @Doohickie's take about Pominville.

Was that *my* take?  I though it was just repetition of something someone else said, or stating the obvious.

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

Was that *my* take?  I though it was just repetition of something someone else said, or stating the obvious.

I've seen you talk a lot about Pominville needing the spell but going right back to line 1 after a couple teams. I don't think I've seen anyone else have quite the same idea. And it worked just like you said it would when he first started tailing off a few games before being moved off.

[Doohicksie]

I'm just glad HCPH reads this forum and takes my advice.  ?

 

[IKnowPhysics]

14 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Go ahead and find where I ever said Risto was useless, or that dumping him and Scandella would improve the team. I'll wait. 

Risto is sheltering the other Dmen, yes. That helps them yes. But that doesn't mean he's good at what he is tasked with. Just as being bad at being Drew Doughty doesn't mean he's bad overall. We have...5 (?) seasons of him getting absolutely caved in at even strength in shots and goals while being tasked with huge minutes in a shutdown role. He's bad at that, not at hockey. He's not a shutdown defender even if his coaches deploy him as one be used they feel they have no other options. Dion Phaneuf was used the same way, and he was similarly had at it. Sure, he was also a front running wuss, but the rest of the comparison stands. 

Don't hate the player, hate the game usage.

 

And then show me either a different player on this roster or a different usage scheme that can do it better.

[pi2000]

1 minute ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Don't hate the player, hate the game usage.

 

And then show me either a different player on this roster or a different usage scheme that can do it better.

They way that Risto has been used isn't why he's making bone-headed plays.   

He'll still make boneheaded plays even if he plays 10 minutes a night against 3rd and 4th lines.