What was broken, what changed?

[dudacek]

I meant in was an oddity in terms of the talent upgrade @Randall Flagg was describing.

We upgraded at a lot of positions, but took a huge hit at 2C

Edited November 11, 2018 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, bg17 said:

Are you suggesting that Botterill and Housley didn’t have an issue with O’Reilly and would have preferred to keep him but Pegula gave them marching orders? 

Suggesting something like it, sure. I certainly don't have proof and won't claim it as absolute. It just looks weird in the set of all things Botterill has ever said and done. 

FTR, I also wouldn't be surprised if moving on from Kane is something that was just as much desired by TP as by Jason. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[dudacek]

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

Suggesting something like it, sure. I certainly don't have proof and won't claim it as absolute. It just looks weird in the set of all things Botterill has ever said and done. 

I’ve always explained it to myself as a chemistry move, but this is plausible as well.

I do think Botterill made it clear without pointing fingers or explicitly saying so that he wanted to make a change to the core.

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, dudacek said:

I’ve always explained it to myself as a chemistry move, but this is plausible as well.

I do think Botterill made it clear without pointing fingers or explicitly saying so that he wanted to make a change to the core.

That makes a lot of sense too. 

See, I can absolutely get on the logical bandwagon of "we need to change the core, and he's the most logical core piece to move while still getting great value" even if I hate the return independent of the decision! I just balk at "we're better without and because of ROR's sadness" or "St. Louis (who has now matched the point pace we had 72 hours ago) is doing worse cuz ROR." and then need to take Sabrespace timeouts. 

[bg17]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Suggesting something like it, sure. I certainly don't have proof and won't claim it as absolute. It just looks weird in the set of all things Botterill has ever said and done. 

FTR, I also wouldn't be surprised if moving on from Kane is something that was just as much desired by TP as by Jason. 

Disagree in regards to it not in concert with his words. He clearly stated the need for change and better leadership. He acted on his words. 

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/jason-botterill-press-conference-recap-sabres/c-297899486

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, bg17 said:

Disagree in regards to it not in concert with his words. He clearly stated the need for change and better leadership. He acted on his words. 

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/jason-botterill-press-conference-recap-sabres/c-297899486

Exactly. I think it's becoming clear that the locker room was divided between Jack's guys and ROR's guys and Jbot wanted the team pulling the same direction behind the franchise center instead of the sulky 2nd line center.

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, bg17 said:

Disagree in regards to it not in concert with his words. He clearly stated the need for change and better leadership. He acted on his words. 

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/jason-botterill-press-conference-recap-sabres/c-297899486

Well those aren't all the words he's ever said. There were plenty of times, even through last season, he emphasized the importance of the center position and how we are privileged to be set there for years, specifically calling Jack and ROR out by name as implicitly the two most important pieces the franchise had. 

And I'm sure he's aware of leadership transfers and upgrades that don't require gutting something you feel so important, even the ugly stripping of Joe Thornton's captaincy, which worked just fine for the Sharks, or what the Avalanche did two offseasons ago. 

So that's why, even with that press conference, I still find it weird. And weird things happen, so you're absolutely right Terry could have been lounging in FLorida completely unaware of the decision being made. I just think it's too weird and completely reasonable for Terry to be like "hey, we suck with the guys that make our franchise look bad running into Tim Hortons, getting in trouble (Kane) in other ways, and apparently not leading, so do your thing please Jason"

 

[bg17]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Well those aren't all the words he's ever said. There were plenty of times, even through last season, he emphasized the importance of the center position and how we are privileged to be set there for years, specifically calling Jack and ROR out by name as implicitly the two most important pieces the franchise had. 

And I'm sure he's aware of leadership transfers and upgrades that don't require gutting something you feel so important, even the ugly stripping of Joe Thornton's captaincy, which worked just fine for the Sharks, or what the Avalanche did two offseasons ago. 

So that's why, even with that press conference, I still find it weird. And weird things happen, so you're absolutely right Terry could have been lounging in FLorida completely unaware of the decision being made. I just think it's too weird and completely reasonable for Terry to be like "hey, we suck with the guys that make our franchise look bad running into Tim Hortons, getting in trouble (Kane) in other ways, and apparently not leading, so do your thing please Jason"

 

He did say plenty of nice things about ROR...and then he traded him. Why? You seem to believe the most likely reason is that Pegula meddled. Not seeing it. So be it. 

Also - seems like you put a whole lot of words in my mouth. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by bg17
Clarity

[Randall Flagg]

2 minutes ago, bg17 said:

He did say plenty of nice things about ROR...and then he traded him. Why? You seem to believe the most likely reason is that Pegula meddled. Not seeing it. So be it. 

Also - seems like you put a whole lot of words in my mouth. 

Point out one single thing I claim you said. One single thing. 

And that's fine. You've not convinced me that the trade and its background don't stand out among any other decision Botterill has ever made, and I haven't convinced you that it looks weird. Life shall move on!

[WildCard]

32 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I think if you look at Skinner in and Kane out, that is basically a wash, at least on the score sheet and talent wise.

I think Skinner is much better than Kane on the ice.

[bg17]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Point out one single thing I claim you said. One single thing. 

And that's fine. You've not convinced me that the trade and its background don't stand out among any other decision Botterill has ever made, and I haven't convinced you that it looks weird. Life shall move on!

Forgive me for not having cut and paste skills as I don’t post a lot. You’re third paragraph says “so you’re right Terry could have been lounging in Fl completely unaware...”. I didn’t mention anything other than Botterill following up on his words. No mention of TP at all. Accuracy matters. 

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, bg17 said:

Forgive me for not having cut and paste skills as I don’t post a lot. You’re third paragraph says “so you’re right Terry could have been lounging in Fl completely unaware...”. I didn’t mention anything other than Botterill following up on his words. No mention of TP at all. Accuracy matters. 

Edit: Fair enough.

Though, I was correct to assume that you don't believe that part of my take, which I think is a reasonable assumption given that it's the root of the argument you didnt' like, and that you went on to say that you indeed didn't believe it. 

Actually yes, I don't think I did put words in your mouth given your initial response. So be it. 

I really try not to do that, that's why I'm making sure! 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[bg17]

4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Edit: Fair enough.

Though, I was correct to assume that you don't believe that part of my take, which I think is a reasonable assumption given that it's the root of the argument you didnt' like, and that you went on to say that you indeed didn't believe it. 

Correct. I don’t buy it. I think it was an addition by subtraction situation and those closest to it wanted it to happen. Doesn’t mean I have any thoughts on where or when TP lounges in oblivion. 

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, bg17 said:

Correct. I don’t buy it. I think it was an addition by subtraction situation and those closest to it wanted it to happen. Doesn’t mean I have any thoughts on where or when TP lounges in oblivion. 

That was me trying to spice things up, no intention for it to be literal! 

We all know he was busy making Bills roster decisions ?

[...]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'm still not sure I know who believed ROR was a problem. 

Every move Botterill makes has a distinct Jason feel to it. Sheary. Skinner. Scandella. There's one single move that sticks out as quite different from the rest, with a deadline that Jason didn't impose himself. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Terry is the one who asked nicely for the Tim Hortons guy with the bad quote in the locker room cleanout to be moved.

And so...?

[Randall Flagg]

9 minutes ago, ... said:

And so...?

Whatcha lookin for there? 

[Robviously]

10 minutes ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

This is true but it also let us field 4 lines of NHL players which is not a small thing.  Our 3rd and 4th lines are no longer a tire fire and, god forbid, they contribute occasionally. That is without accounting for any positive locker room impact from the 2C being dealt.  If that helped too, it's a bonus.

You would never, ever trade a no.2 center just to upgrade your 3rd and 4th lines, even with a good prospect and draft picks added to the deal.

The Sabres were motivated to move ROR this past summer, and were willing to make the team worse from a talent standpoint (hopefully in the short term only) to do it.  Whether that decision was the GM or Owner (or coach, or everyone), who knows?  But it says something.

[...]

7 minutes ago, Robviously said:

The Sabres were motivated to move ROR this past summer, and were willing to make the team worse from a talent standpoint (hopefully in the short term only) to do it.  Whether that decision was the GM or Owner (or coach, or everyone), who knows?  But it says something.

More importantly, it worked.

[dudacek]

Murray chose to build around a core of Kane ROR Lehner Eichel Reinhart Ristolainen Bogosian and Okposo.Didnt work.

The only one Botterill is definitely sticking with is Eichel, and he’s added Casey and Dahlin. Be interesting to see how Reinhart Skinner and Risto fit into his long-term plan.

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

3 hours ago, bg17 said:

He did say plenty of nice things about ROR...and then he traded him. Why? You seem to believe the most likely reason is that Pegula meddled. Not seeing it. So be it. 

Also - seems like you put a whole lot of words in my mouth. 

Why....personally, I think O'Peilly said those things at locker clean-out because HE wanted out and to some extent forced the trade. He wasn't so happy in Colorado and got traded eventually. Seems like a pattern is evolving with him but we'll have to stand by and wait for more evidence.

If an ROR led Blues team loses the CUP to a Jack led Sabres team, and ROR wants out of St. Louis....we'll know. GO SABRES (starts the We're Gonna Win That Cup song followed by Dahlin) LOL

[Andrew Amerk]

Have not read the thread, and I will assume a few things I’m going to say aren’t in line with the majority here. 

Call it what you want - culture/ attitude/ energy/ “the room”/ whatever - has been the difference. I honestly don’t think this years lineup is much more talented overall than last years lineup, if at all. The personalities themselves are making the difference. 

Kane was very skilled and talented. So is Skinner, in different ways. Kane had the party boy reputation; Skinner appears to actually enjoy playing with his team and having a good time, bringing positive vibes. 

ROR? Absolutely talented two-way player. Also was seen constantly sulking in post-game interviews with his “woe is me it’s all my fault” aura. Sobotka and Berglund, not nearly as talented. Yet, Sobotka seems very even-keeled and Berglund seems to be a guy the other Swedes look up to and enjoy being around. When a handful of those players are happy, it spreads to others. When ROR is supposed to be a team leader and is sulking, that spreads even worse.

Then there is Lehner, which we all know now was having issues. How much of an impact was his head-case behavior having on the team? Hutton comes in, speaks intelligent, seems calm, seems happy. Gives up a lousy goal last game but it didn’t rattle him. Lehner last year probably would’ve lost it, and the team would’ve had no confidence. Is Hutton more talented than Lehner? You might be surprised which one has better stats so far this season. Is Hutton more stable, better for that “culture?” Absolutely.

Add in two fresh players, both who never seem fazed by whatever happens on the ice - Mitts and Dahlin - it’s calming. 

All of this appears to have had a trickle-down effect of sorts. Okposo, Bogo, Pommers, Zemgus, Larry, Bowl-U all appear to be playing better this season - it’s not as if their talents have changed - the locker room is better and more fun, positive, up-beat. Then there is Jack, who doesn’t appear to be having tantrums this season like in the past. He’s in an environment where it’s fun to play, and easier to be a leader. 

[Robviously]

23 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Have not read the thread, and I will assume a few things I’m going to say aren’t in line with the majority here. 

Call it what you want - culture/ attitude/ energy/ “the room”/ whatever - has been the difference. I honestly don’t think this years lineup is much more talented overall than last years lineup, if at all. The personalities themselves are making the difference. 

Kane was very skilled and talented. So is Skinner, in different ways. Kane had the party boy reputation; Skinner appears to actually enjoy playing with his team and having a good time, bringing positive vibes. 

ROR? Absolutely talented two-way player. Also was seen constantly sulking in post-game interviews with his “woe is me it’s all my fault” aura. Sobotka and Berglund, not nearly as talented. Yet, Sobotka seems very even-keeled and Berglund seems to be a guy the other Swedes look up to and enjoy being around. When a handful of those players are happy, it spreads to others. When ROR is supposed to be a team leader and is sulking, that spreads even worse.

Then there is Lehner, which we all know now was having issues. How much of an impact was his head-case behavior having on the team? Hutton comes in, speaks intelligent, seems calm, seems happy. Gives up a lousy goal last game but it didn’t rattle him. Lehner last year probably would’ve lost it, and the team would’ve had no confidence. Is Hutton more talented than Lehner? You might be surprised which one has better stats so far this season. Is Hutton more stable, better for that “culture?” Absolutely.

Add in two fresh players, both who never seem fazed by whatever happens on the ice - Mitts and Dahlin - it’s calming. 

All of this appears to have had a trickle-down effect of sorts. Okposo, Bogo, Pommers, Zemgus, Larry, Bowl-U all appear to be playing better this season - it’s not as if their talents have changed - the locker room is better and more fun, positive, up-beat. Then there is Jack, who doesn’t appear to be having tantrums this season like in the past. He’s in an environment where it’s fun to play, and easier to be a leader. 

Love this, especially the last part.  The fact that we have multiple players going from liabilities to contributors says a lot.

[WildCard]

We still desperately need offense, especially goals, from anyone not named Jeff Skinner.

[Taro T]

What's changed?  A whole lot of little things that add up.

IMHO, the biggest of these is timely goaltending.  Hutton stole the 1st Rags game.  Take that W away and they're already 2 games under 0.500 2 games into the season & you likely have guys thinking "here we go again."

Another is Eichel being a year older.  He's looking like a leader this year.  That didn't happen nearly often enough last year.

Another is roster stability.  To a degree thisis assisted by having so much youthin the lineup -:the kids can take hits the older guys can't without breaking, but they also seem to be getting much better luckin this regard thanin the past.  Rather than having already lost a season's worth of mangames like they had last year at this point, they have been surprisingly healthy.  That helps breed continuity & confidence.  To a degree, their health this regular season mimics the Canes' '06 playoff run.  Though guys miss time in games, almost nobody is missing the next start.  (Those Canes didn't miss a full game until after Cole was ready to come back in the finals.)

Having a linemate that Eichel isn't just successful with, but that he actually clicks with.  Skinner-Eichel-Pominville FEELS significantly better than Kane-Eichel-Pominville even though the results aren't order of magnitude better, Eichel-Skinner seems like something that can work all season.  There were times watching Kane-Eichel made us want to throw things at the TV.

Having Okposo & Larsson (& Bogosian, too, apparently) not just playing but playing without fighting through the after effects of major injuries.

Not starting the year with major anchors such as Moulson.  Though we'd like to see better players than Sobotka, Beaulieu, etc., other than Thompson there isn't a single guy getting time that we are all in concensus agreement that they belong in the AHL (or even lesser leagues).

Most of the guys brought in during the off-season have been useful.  Been a LONG time since that was true.

While Housley has changed a lot of stuff up, & yet still had some favorite combos; he seems to be better at it.  And he's gotten to some things that work & has stuck with those while changing what isn't working.  Last year he needed to have O'Reilly take ALL important faceoffs.  He started doing that again w/ Sobotka primarily & Berglund to a degree.  He only stuck with that for 4-5 games before putting together his checking line.  He would NOT have done that last year.

He also, broke up Eichel & Skinner before the Bruin game was over but went back to it & actually gave it time to work this next time.  Probably would've taken 20 games to get back to that last season.  There stlll are things that Phil does that are frustrating as heck, but he seems to be learning.  He also is better at platooning his goalies but needs to be better still with that.

And having a couple of rookies that will get consideration for the Calder (though neither likely will win it) happens to be another change.  They didn't have any rookies that "popped" fairly regularly in the lineup.  This year they have 3 (Mittelstadt, Dahlin, & Ullmark (fairly certain Linus is technically a rookie still, regardless this is his 1st real opportunity w/ the big club)) & there will be anywhere from 1 to 6 more that will contribute after the injury bug starts to hit.

And lastly, & likely leastly, this team seems to genuinely like everybody else on the roster.  That wasn't always fully apparent last year.

Probably missing a few others (including the lack of a true #2 C, & the 2nd PP unit having more talent by far than last season's even though the results haven't been there yet), but that's enough for now.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Taro T

[Doohicksie]

4 hours ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

agreed.  Different player when they are at their best, but I like Skinner better.  Admittedly there is some HEAVY recency bias in this but I really did not like the way Kane played most nights so it wasn't a super high bar to clear.

Kane brought his best effort every night and skated hard.  But he wasn't very smart with the puck and seemed to try more than he was capable of.  I think Kane and Jack liked playing together but they weren't a natural fit.  Skins and Jack are.