Tage Thompson: what's the deal?

[SHAAAUGHT!!!]

On 11/4/2018 at 5:58 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Why would the Sabres brass have made any NHL guarantees to a prospect under contract who they acquired in trade?  

I don’t understand that arguement. 

Another possible reason he hasn’t been sent down is chemistry in Rochester. Since they don’t plan to bring anyone up, they aren’t sending anyone down.

Along similar lines, I don't think they want to pull a guy that is playing great down in the A out of that situation so he could play 12 minutes once or twice a week with the big club.  Its still very early in the season.

Edited November 6, 2018 by SHAAAUGHT!!!

[LTS]

20 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

So the new shiny prospect is being scratched in Buffalo to protect him learning in Rochester? That's the theory? 

Sometimes man, sometimes, you just don't seem to hear what's being said.  It's not to protect him from learning in Rochester, it's so that he doesn't change what is in Rochester already. I'm not sure why you won't see that point being made. 

20 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

And the other theory is that the best deal Botterill could get for ROR, was 1 legit cap dump, a sorta kinda dump but decent player, a lottery protected and then some first, and a prospect that after 2 months they don't even want? If that's the case Botterill should probably be fired because that is crazy. 

Do you think there was a better deal available and the GM turned it down?  I sincerely doubt you do. The more likely feeling from you would be that the deal should not have been made and that ROR should still be on the Sabres.  We've addressed that by indicating that while this deal did not provide a HUGE return for ROR it was evident that Sabres management felt he needed to be moved. You can disagree with it, but at this point the Sabres are a better team than last year and the Blues still suck.

As for Thompson... I think they hope he might be able to bulk up and that he would fit into the lineup but right now the other players on the team are outplaying him.  I think if things in Rochester weren't going as they are right now they would have already made the move, but you don't mess with winning, even if it's the AHL club.  The point is development and that's a long term goal, not a 2 week goal.  Thompson's best spot right now is with the Sabres and he'll learn the same there as he would in Rochester at this point.  So there's no need to move him down there.  

 

 

[LGR4GM]

Every time someone says this "Do you think there was a better deal available and the GM turned it down?" I roll my eyes. Because that isn't the point. This would be predicated on the belief that Botterill had to under any circumstances trade ROR for whatever he could get. It isn't a belief he turned down a better deal. If trading ROR had to happen, if that is the case than ROR is a locker room disease. If that is not the case than he should have held firm and waited for St Louis or another team to blink. So either ROR was a locker room disease that had to be cut out immediately in which case Botterill did the best he could or he liked Tage, likes Berglund and Sobotka and was willing to make the deal without any pressure to. The power in any relationship lies with who cares least. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by LGR4GM

[Eleven]

8 minutes ago, LTS said:

Thompson's best spot right now is with the Sabres and he'll learn the same there as he would in Rochester at this point.  So there's no need to move him down there.  

I don't know about this part.  There was a great piece in The Athletic last week about the loneliness of the healthy scratch player.  Seems the starters don't interact with them nearly as much as we think.

[LGR4GM]

19 hours ago, Taro T said:

Given the self imposed time constraint for making a trade, we KNOW that the best deal that was available was Berglund, Sobotka, Thompson, & a protected 1st.

How do we know this?  Because that is the ####ing deal that was made.  Do you HONESTLY think Botterill was offered a better deal but turned it down?

 

So this is where that comes from. Why would I think this? Do I think there was a better deal out there, if he had waited or pressed the issue, yes. Do I think he got the best deal in his mind he could at the time he made it, yes. Again, wasn't the point but then again, you enjoy basterdizing my points anyways so I am sure your response to this will be along the lines of how dumb I am.

Best,

- Flounder. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

21 minutes ago, LTS said:

Sometimes man, sometimes, you just don't seem to hear what's being said.  It's not to protect him from learning in Rochester, it's so that he doesn't change what is in Rochester already. I'm not sure why you won't see that point being made. 

Because the point of the Buffalo Sabres is to win a Stanley Cup not to make sure Rochester is humming along. If Tage is such a disruptive force than he shouldn't be on either team he should not have been traded for. I would think a talented player like tage would do well in Rochester. My understanding is that Nylander plays the left side. Tage would be the 2nd best RW on the team behind Olofsson and ahead of Bailey. 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

I hear what is being said just fine. I simply disagree with it. I also disagree with your interpretation of what I was saying. 

[Taro T]

27 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

So this is where that comes from. Why would I think this? Do I think there was a better deal out there, if he had waited or pressed the issue, yes. Do I think he got the best deal in his mind he could at the time he made it, yes. Again, wasn't the point but then again, you enjoy basterdizing my points anyways so I am sure your response to this will be along the lines of how dumb I am.

Best,

- Flounder. 

You don't think he "pressed the issue?"  He obviously did, because O'Reilly was traded on his (Botterill's) own constrained timeline.  And that doesn't make him "crazy."  He simply was the more determined party in the transaction and as said earlier, as such he was willing to on paper lose the deal to make sure the deal happened.  He pressed for what he could get up to his self imposed deadline & took the best deal available at that time.  And Tage Thompson was a piece of that deal.

And, as an aside, really don't believe that it is those of us that read what you've written that are "bastardizing (your) points."  When you find you repeatedly "disagree with your interpretation of what (you were) saying" the disconnect in communication isn't necessarily on the end of the listener (or, more accurately with this medium, the reader). 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I’m not understanding the dislike of TT.  The hasn’t contributed here.... yet.  We all agree he needs to get stronger, but to write off a 21 year old former 1st rd pick after 10 games with the Sabres is kind of silly.  

We need him to grow into a physical presence long term.  He skates well for a big guy and has a great shot.  I suspect we won’t see his best until he fills out more at 23 or 24.  That’s ok.  We don’t need him to be a top 6 forward.  We need him to evolve into a top 9 physical winger who adds some offense and forechecking.  Kind of Foligno but better.

[Drunkard]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’m not understanding the dislike of TT.  The hasn’t contributed here.... yet.  We all agree he needs to get stronger, but to write off a 21 year old former 1st rd pick after 10 games with the Sabres is kind of silly.  

We need him to grow into a physical presence long term.  He skates well for a big guy and has a great shot.  I suspect we won’t see his best until he fills out more at 23 or 24.  That’s ok.  We don’t need him to be a top 6 forward.  We need him to evolve into a top 9 physical winger who adds some offense and forechecking.  Kind of Foligno but better.

So we traded a highly productive top 6 center for two bottom 6 guys, a third guy who may one day develop into a bottom 6 guy, and a 1st round pick that might eventually one day contribute to the Sabres by 2022 or something.  

Botterill should have turned down the trade and waited until O'Reilly's roster bonus got paid. I guarantee you the offers would have improved if the acquiring team only had to pay his $1 million salary this season.

What happened to Terry's whole money is no problem and I'll drill another well nonsense? Was that only the case until his true prize (buying the Bills) came to pass?

Edited November 6, 2018 by Alkoholist

[GASabresIUFAN]

No we traded an overpaid 2nd line center on a bad longterm deal who didn’t score at even strength and was an attitude problem in the locker room for a bunch of assets that improved our depth and made room for Casey long-term.

And despite trading away this great talent for lesser players we are somehow a younger faster and better team.  

Edited November 6, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[Drunkard]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No we traded an overpaid 2nd line center on a bad longterm deal who didn’t score at even strength and was an attitude problem in the locker room for a bunch of assets that improved our depth and made room for Casey long-term.

And despite trading away this great talent for lesser players we are somehow a younger faster and better team.  

If O'Reilly is overpaid then Jack Eichel is robbing the team blind.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Alkoholist

[Drunkard]

I love Lord Casey (pbuh) more than almost everyone but he's just not ready to be 2nd line center. They shouldn't have traded O'Reilly until Mittelstadt proved he was ready.

O'Reilly's contract was great because not only did it end before he got really old it was front loaded to ensure it would be easy to move down the road.

If you want to see bad contracts look at the ones Botterill took on in the trade. Berglund and Sobotka are already cap anchors and are already 30 or older and it's only going to get worse as they get even older.

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Alkoholist

[nfreeman]

Sobotka is a pretty decent player and only has 1 more year on his deal after this season, and it's for $3.5MM.  That is far from being a cap anchor.

Berglund, OTOH, has 3 more years on his deal after this one, at $3.85MM per year.  While I think he's looked pretty solid on the checking line with Larsson and Zemgus, and while his contract isn't nearly in Bogo or KO territory, it's still much too expensive for what he provides IMHO.

[Randall Flagg]

7 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Sobotka is a pretty decent player and only has 1 more year on his deal after this season, and it's for $3.5MM.  That is far from being a cap anchor.

Berglund, OTOH, has 3 more years on his deal after this one, at $3.85MM per year.  While I think he's looked pretty solid on the checking line with Larsson and Zemgus, and while his contract isn't nearly in Bogo or KO territory, it's still much too expensive for what he provides IMHO.

FWIW, his metrics say that Tage is the only thing keeping him from being our worst forward by a fair margin. 

My eye test agrees, though he's certainly not as BAD as the guys he replaced from last year. I would never use the word "decent" to describe him though. I think Sam is a decent player. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[LTS]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Every time someone says this "Do you think there was a better deal available and the GM turned it down?" I roll my eyes. Because that isn't the point. This would be predicated on the belief that Botterill had to under any circumstances trade ROR for whatever he could get. It isn't a belief he turned down a better deal. If trading ROR had to happen, if that is the case than ROR is a locker room disease. If that is not the case than he should have held firm and waited for St Louis or another team to blink. So either ROR was a locker room disease that had to be cut out immediately in which case Botterill did the best he could or he liked Tage, likes Berglund and Sobotka and was willing to make the deal without any pressure to. The power in any relationship lies with who cares least. 

You are stating it quite clearly and I think what you have to ask yourself is whether you believe Botterill is incompetent or not.  I happen to believe that he is competent and as such he knew that ROR needed to be moved and he did it.  He knew that keeping him around would be a problem for this season.  So he made the move.  There's also a concept that why wasn't there a better deal on the table if ROR is such a prized piece around the league?  You'd think that GMs might be willing to give up something more for him, but why wouldn't they?  Sure we don't know, but I the league is run by people who have more knowledge about everything that goes on within its walls and I have to give that some value when evaluating why decisions are made.

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Because the point of the Buffalo Sabres is to win a Stanley Cup not to make sure Rochester is humming along. If Tage is such a disruptive force than he shouldn't be on either team he should not have been traded for. I would think a talented player like tage would do well in Rochester. My understanding is that Nylander plays the left side. Tage would be the 2nd best RW on the team behind Olofsson and ahead of Bailey. 

 

It is the point to win a Cup, but it's not the point to win it this year.  If that's the case, then you allow the Amerks to continue developing and not disrupt it right now.  If they start losing then perhaps they shake it up a bit, but you don't mess with the winning. 

[Brawndo]

From John Vogl and the Athletic 

 

https://theathletic.com/638082/2018/11/06/sabres-plan-to-develop-tage-thompson-with-coaching-and-sitting-at-nhl-level-not-playing-at-ahl-level/

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 hours ago, Alkoholist said:

If O'Reilly is overpaid then Jack Eichel is robbing the team blind.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jack-eichel-off-huge-start-225823525.html

I'd suggest reading this article, it may just change your mind about our friend Jack.

Also has been a pt a game player since his 2nd  season in the league.  Also Jack's deal will cover most of his prime.  We have him until he is 30 which is usually when players start to decline.  Also how much is a 22 year old top 15 scorer in the NHL worth?  

 

[LGR4GM]

14 hours ago, Brawndo said:

From John Vogl and the Athletic 

 

https://theathletic.com/638082/2018/11/06/sabres-plan-to-develop-tage-thompson-with-coaching-and-sitting-at-nhl-level-not-playing-at-ahl-level/

This provides more answers than this thread. Wonder if vogl checks in here. 

I like tage but not a ton. He's still very raw and st Louis had better prospects. 

[TheAud]

14 hours ago, Brawndo said:

From John Vogl and the Athletic 

 

https://theathletic.com/638082/2018/11/06/sabres-plan-to-develop-tage-thompson-with-coaching-and-sitting-at-nhl-level-not-playing-at-ahl-level/

My first reaction to this article is that Tage Thompson will never amount to much in the NHL. Now, maybe he is just good at repeating the party line about what he's doing sitting out game after game instead of playing somewhere. But if he is actually comfortable sitting around watching video and saying "I'm still young" then he does not have the drive necessary to become a consistent NHL contributor. I'd have much preferred to see quotes saying (essentially) "this pisses me off, sitting around watching while the boys play the game, so I am working as hard as possible to get back in the lineup and never come out". His vibe is nothing like that at all. 

[Drunkard]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jack-eichel-off-huge-start-225823525.html

I'd suggest reading this article, it may just change your mind about our friend Jack.

Also has been a pt a game player since his 2nd  season in the league.  Also Jack's deal will cover most of his prime.  We have him until he is 30 which is usually when players start to decline.  Also how much is a 22 year old top 15 scorer in the NHL worth?  

 

Whatever. He's got a $10 million cap hit and has yet to score 60 points in a single season to date. Other young players have out produced him to date and signed for less money. I don't care about point per game extrapolations.

They've paid him for his potential and we need to hope it pays off. I hope it ends up being a deal for the Sabres but that's not proven yet. If he's worth $10 million how is O'Reilly not worth $7.5? It just amazes me how quickly O'Reilly got thrown under the bus around here and suddenly there's revisionist history about how he's a bum and a locker room cancer and how Tage Freaking Thompson and some dead wood depth players were the absolute best we could hope to get for him and we should be grateful he's gone because he sucks anyway. Just because he was a whiny emo crybaby to the press doesn't change how much he contributed on the ice.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Alkoholist

[nfreeman]

8 minutes ago, Alkoholist said:

Whatever. He's got a $10 million cap hit and has yet to score 60 points in a single season to date. Other young players have out produced him to date and signed for less money. I don't care about point per game extrapolations.

They've paid him for his potential and we need to hope it pays off. I hope it ends up being a deal for the Sabres but that's not proven yet. If he's worth $10 million how is O'Reilly not worth $7.5? It just amazes me how quickly O'Reilly got thrown under the bus around here and suddenly there's revisionist history about how he's a bum and a locker room cancer and how Tage Freaking Thompson and some dead wood depth players were the absolute best we could hope to get for him and we should be grateful he's gone because he sucks anyway. Just because he was a whiny emo crybaby to the press doesn't change how much he contributed on the ice.

How do you know whether it's revisionist?

Do you think JBott just rolled out of bed one day, read the newspaper and interpreted his horoscope as a mandate to trade ROR?

Do you think there were other offers available for ROR that were superior to the one JBott accepted?  Please be specific.

I agree that Eichel to date hasn't been worth nearly what the Sabres gave up for him, but that is an entirely different question from the ROR questions.

[Randall Flagg]

Eichel's contract isn't about what he's worth in November 2018. If he never grows from right here he'll be worth it once the cap raises a little and all the guys on ELCs now sign THEIR second deals. When the Nylanders of the world get ~8 mil. Jack's just one of the first of his kind to sign this deal.

[Drunkard]

14 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

How do you know whether it's revisionist?

Do you think JBott just rolled out of bed one day, read the newspaper and interpreted his horoscope as a mandate to trade ROR?

Do you think there were other offers available for ROR that were superior to the one JBott accepted?  Please be specific.

I agree that Eichel to date hasn't been worth nearly what the Sabres gave up for him, but that is an entirely different question from the ROR questions.

It's revisionist history because nobody questioned his worth on the ice until his comment to the press and then suddenly he's public enemy #1 and we suddenly just HAD to get rid of him.

I don't have insider sources but I guaran-goddamn-tee we could have gotten a better deal just by waiting another 24 hours and paying his $7.5 million roster bonus. Pegula wasn't supposed to be worried about money and Murray set it up so O'Reilly's contract would have been VERY easy to unload once that bonus was paid.

5 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Eichel's contract isn't about what he's worth in November 2018. If he never grows from right here he'll be worth it once the cap raises a little and all the guys on ELCs now sign THEIR second deals. When the Nylanders of the world get ~8 mil. Jack's just one of the first of his kind to sign this deal.

So you're saying we paid for his potential. That's what I said. Sure it's looks like a safe bet but even a safe bet is still a gamble.

[Randall Flagg]

11 minutes ago, Alkoholist said:

It's revisionist history because nobody questioned his worth on the ice until his comment to the press and then suddenly he's public enemy #1 and we suddenly just HAD to get rid of him.

I don't have insider sources but I guaran-goddamn-tee we could have gotten a better deal just by waiting another 24 hours and paying his $7.5 million roster bonus. Pegula wasn't supposed to be worried about money and Murray set it up so O'Reilly's contract would have been VERY easy to unload once that bonus was paid.

So you're saying we paid for his potential. That's what I said. Sure it's looks like a safe bet but even a safe bet is still a gamble.

Sure. Beats not having an Eichel to "gamble" on. As soon as the complementary Draisatil took 8.5 Jack's was never not going to happen that way as the franchise piece