Tage Thompson: what's the deal?

[Hoss]

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

Didn't say it is impossible.  Would not be at all surprised if each of those 2 had played D at lower levels as well.  (Had thought I'd read that Byfuglien had, no data on Burns.)

And Sergei Fedorov did it quite often for the Wings as well.  

And none of those 3 making the shift change the fact that it is easier to move a D up to wing than the other way around in general.  The transition is far easier to make moving from D to W as the responsibilities are less & the skills a winger need are pretty much all possessed by a D man, whereas there are skills a D needs  that wingers don't necessarily possess.

Thompson is a former C that plays either wing.  Have not seen any interview nor indication that Thompson has played any D.  Pretty sure that Doohickie is the only person suggesting Thompson be moved to D.  (Playing point on the PP, especially now that the umbrella is so prevalent, is NOT moving a forward to D by most normal definitions of that move.)

I can’t think of former D that became forwards right now. I’m sure there are some.

[erickompositör72]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I can’t think of former D that became forwards right now. I’m sure there are some.

Dlo

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, erickompositör72 said:

Dlo

Good call

[Doohicksie]

LIndy Ruff.

 

[Hoss]

27 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

LIndy Ruff.

 

[Doohicksie]

It's funny, cuz he was a defenseman when I went away to college and I wasn't following NHL actively.  I found out much later that he'd moved to left wing.  I was like.... Lindy Ruff?  A forward?

[Taro T]

9 hours ago, Hoss said:

I can’t think of former D that became forwards right now. I’m sure there are some.

Teams at the NHL level will rarely move established players from D to F and vice versa.  D, primarily because if a guy can play D for you well, you aren't going to move him to W which is a less valuable position.  And you don't usually move guys from W to D because they rarely can handle the transition.  (The 3 players that we've identified at making that transition from F to D are all elite D-men; Fedorov wasn't moved there full time because he was also an elite C.)  

You are only considering players that have made it to & remain at the NHL level.  Primarily because it is harder to play D at this level, teams aren't typically going to move a successful D-man up to W.  He'll get less ice time & play a less valuable position.  You also need to break habits to move a guy up to W whereas you usually need to teach new skills to slide a guy back to D (habits (such as backing off slightly while maintaining a proper gap when a player is rushing at you in the offensive zone rather than engaging and trying to force the turnover) are easier to break, than teaching new skills (such as backwards skating, or even maintaining that gap) are to teach to an established skater).  

How many wingers can defend a 2 on 1 successfully and consistently?  Compare that to how many D can jump up into a rush? 

And growing up, a lot of D get moved up to F; not so much the other way, though it does happen.  With the exception of the true sniper (who often ends up at W), as you age up your best players are C & D.  The more interchangeable ones play W.  All C's can play W (Larsson being the exceptiin that proves the rule); most all D can play W.  Some W's can play C; far fewer W's can play D.

You've chosen a couple of annecdotes to support the idea that wings can more easily move to D than the other way around.  (2 elite defenders who's value to their teams weren't fully realized because they weren't playing as valuable a role as they were capable of playing, no less.)  16 years of coaching and a lifetime of playing says that  isn't true except in rare cases.

 

[Doohicksie]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Fedorov wasn't moved there full time because he was also an elite C.

Fedorov, if I recall correctly, spent about 60 games at D.  Part of it was a need at that position, but part of that was that Scotty Bowman felt that Fedorov was missing aspects of his game at center (particularly physicality) that limited his effectiveness.... and this was after he'd won the Hart Trophy.  He made Fedorov play D to enhance his game at C.

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Fedorov, if I recall correctly, spent about 60 games at D.  Part of it was a need at that position, but part of that was that Scotty Bowman felt that Fedorov was missing aspects of his game at center (particularly physicality) that limited his effectiveness.... and this was after he'd won the Hart Trophy.  He made Fedorov play D to enhance his game at C.

Correct.  And Fedorov got moved back to C primarily after that stint at D.  

[Doohicksie]

So I wandered through the internet looking for interesting stuff about Tage's history.  He's listed as a native of Glendale, Arizona.  In the year he was born, his father, Brent Thompson played a single game for the Phoenix Coyotes.  Brent had a 6-year career as a depth defenseman, playing 121 NHL games over 6 seasons from 1991 to 1997, and 224 in the AHL during the same period.  He continued to play in the minors until 2005. 

As a result, Tage went to 11 different schools, and graduated from HS in Ann Arbor (where he was also on the US Development Team) a year early prior to go to UConn to play hockey for two seasons.  He left after his sophomore year to join the Blues' AHL affiliate for 16 games, then split between the AHL and the NHL the following year, which was 2017-18.  The Sabres traded for him the summer of 2018.  So really, he could probably use more development but looks pretty good considering his development path (i.e., rushed to the NHL by the Blues last year).

To bring that back to the current discussion- considering his dad played D, Thompson likely got a fair shot at D at some point but ended up at forward, so there's probably a reason for that.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Doohickie

[French Collection]

Wendel Clark was drafted as a D, but played LW for his entire NHL career.

[Andrew Amerk]

20 hours ago, Taro T said:

SIGNIFICANTLY easier for a D-man to become a winger than the other way around.

(And, never really saw the point to that suggested move.  Now, moving HOUSLEY to F, was totally on board with. ;))

I wasn’t in that camp, but my guess is fans saw Myers’ size and envisioned a power forward. 

Probably similar to how everyone salivated from every potential bodily orafice when Kassian was drafted. 

Then there is was the Joe Finley experiment (or whatever his name was). 

[MattPie]

On 11/26/2018 at 1:25 PM, nfreeman said:

I think ROR's locker room presence was pretty much the entire issue.  If ROR hadn't been a problem in the locker room, he'd still be here IMHO.  Otherwise, JBott wouldn't have taken 75 cents in dimes and quarters in exchange for a dollar bill.

Now, if TT turns into Afinogenov 2.0 and/or the 1st-rounder hits, it may end up being $1.50 in exchange for that dollar.  We'll see.

Wait, is Afingenov 2.0 a good thing or a disappointment? I loved his skating, but he never put up the points to go with them.

16 hours ago, Hoss said:

I can’t think of former D that became forwards right now. I’m sure there are some.

All-star MVP John Scott was a D early in his career but IIRC played wing here.

[nfreeman]

3 hours ago, MattPie said:

Wait, is Afingenov 2.0 a good thing or a disappointment? I loved his skating, but he never put up the points to go with them. 

Well, Max had seasons of 40, 61, 61 and 73 points -- not too shabby.

[Ottosmagic13]

Tage looks better and better each game. I'll admit I was down on him when he was quiet and Erod was a healthy scratch. Turnovers and a step behind.

His hands and his size are proving to be NHL level, forget about his shot and it's his precision skating that seems to improve each game. 

I keep noticing him gaining and maintaining extended zone time, which is exactly what we need from him. Throw in the odd highlight reel "ovie's wheelhouse" goal and that's solid! 

 

 

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 hours ago, French Collection said:

Wendel Clark was drafted as a D, but played LW for his entire NHL career.

We don't discuss Leafs here.

[sabills]

Another game, another goal. I think it was our best one of the night, too.

[dudacek]

The skill Tage has been showing puts the O’Reilly trade in a new light. Whether he develops or not, his talent level is clearly a step above the Baileys and Brendan Lemieuxs of this world.

The Sabres got a better prospect than the Internet gave them credit for. The Blues had certainly seen it, even if it didn’t show on the ice in games last year.

Edited November 30, 2018 by dudacek

[Kruppstahl]

On 11/27/2018 at 2:53 PM, French Collection said:

Wendel Clark was drafted as a D, but played LW for his entire NHL career.

Loved Wendel.  What a player!

 

 

[nfreeman]

FWIW (which isn't that much given how early these guys are in their careers), Tommer is outperforming the other Blues' forward prospects that many here decried JB for not getting in the ROR trade (Jordan Kyrou, Robert Thomas and Klim Kostin) -- although to be fair, Tommer is a year older than Thomas and Kostin; he's the same age as Kyrou. 

[LGR4GM]

Tage Thompson is almost 7 months older than Jordan Kyrou. That said, Thompson needs that development and that was always the concern. So far he is exceeding expectations and we can only hope that continues. He seems to be using his size better to shield the puck and get his shot off. Still needs work but early results are good and playing with Mitts gives me that warm fuzzy feeling. 

Robert Thomas currently has more points than Thompson in the NHL while playing the same number of games and being 1yr and 9 months younger than Thompson. At the ages of 18-21, every extra month of age matters a great deal to cognitive and physical maturity. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by LGR4GM

[North Buffalo]

Somewhere between having a few games and sucking and then sitting and having the coaches in his ear and practicing the way he is supposed to the light switch went on... Man did it go on brightly, hope he keeps it up... er on.

[nfreeman]

28 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Tage Thompson is almost 7 months older than Jordan Kyrou. That said, Thompson needs that development and that was always the concern. So far he is exceeding expectations and we can only hope that continues. He seems to be using his size better to shield the puck and get his shot off. Still needs work but early results are good and playing with Mitts gives me that warm fuzzy feeling. 

Robert Thomas currently has more points than Thompson in the NHL while playing the same number of games and being 1yr and 9 months younger than Thompson. At the ages of 18-21, every extra month of age matters a great deal to cognitive and physical maturity. 

Thomas has 1 goal and 7 points in 19 games.  TT has 4 goals and 6 points in 19 games, and has demonstrated the ability to score goals in multiple different ways. 

I agree that it isn't apples-to-apples due to difference in ages, but TT is clearly exceeding the expectations that many here voiced.

[jsb]

9 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Thomas has 1 goal and 7 points in 19 games.  TT has 4 goals and 6 points in 19 games, and has demonstrated the ability to score goals in multiple different ways. 

I agree that it isn't apples-to-apples due to difference in ages, but TT is clearly exceeding the expectations that a few here voiced.

FIFY......

Although to be fair when those few bandwagon together it seems like many.

[Samson's Flow]

46 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Tage Thompson is almost 7 months older than Jordan Kyrou. That said, Thompson needs that development and that was always the concern. So far he is exceeding expectations and we can only hope that continues. He seems to be using his size better to shield the puck and get his shot off. Still needs work but early results are good and playing with Mitts gives me that warm fuzzy feeling. 

Robert Thomas currently has more points than Thompson in the NHL while playing the same number of games and being 1yr and 9 months younger than Thompson. At the ages of 18-21, every extra month of age matters a great deal to cognitive and physical maturity. 

I think a lot of why we targeted Tage over others is we needed more of a shooter to compliment either Eichel or Mitts, who are dynamic playmaking centers. I'm also excited that Mitts and Tage could potentially be building chemistry that could last for many years (Mitts 20yo/Tage 21 yo). Reminds me of the difference between building a team that fits together v. assembling a bunch of talented pieces.

17 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Thomas has 1 goal and 7 points in 19 games.  TT has 4 goals and 6 points in 19 games, and has demonstrated the ability to score goals in multiple different ways. 

I agree that it isn't apples-to-apples due to difference in ages, but TT is clearly exceeding the expectations that many here voiced.

Yep. Different flavor of players. I think JB was looking for a goal scorer to compliment our existing playmakers.