SwampD Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 This armed guard stuff is such red herring bullsweet. Why can't we just condemn hate? To say it is somehow the victims' fault for not doing enough to not be attacked is luderous. Give me a break.
5th line wingnutt Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 56 minutes ago, Sabel79 said: By all means, let's penalize the non-weapon toting for the actions of madmen abetted by a minority of society. How am I penalizing anyone?
Sabel79 Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 9 hours ago, 5th line wingnutt said: How am I penalizing anyone? They're dead, no? Retroactively implying that the innocent victims of terrorism are in some way at least partially responsible for their own deaths through their own failure to anticipate the actions of a terrorist is perhaps the worst look.
5th line wingnutt Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 20 minutes ago, Sabel79 said: They're dead, no? Retroactively implying that the innocent victims of terrorism are in some way at least partially responsible for their own deaths through their own failure to anticipate the actions of a terrorist is perhaps the worst look. The fact that you inferred does not mean that I implied. The shooter is entirely responsible. Do you think deterrence is useless? Do you want to learn from errors of omission? I still do not get how I penalized anyone.
That Aud Smell Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 On 10/27/2018 at 7:06 PM, Eleven said: Who wants armed guards at every place of worship every week (or in the case of my religion, every day)? Certainly not me. As for the matter of armed security: It did surprise me to read a bit -- in the wake of this atrocity -- about how much Jewish congregations around America have done in terms of securing their places of worship. There are apparently Jewish congregations that regularly arrange for armed security -- but usually only around the high holidays. I will admit to being unable to understand anti-Semitism. As in: I literally do not understand it. I don't have a proper grounding in what forms the basis for the hate. More than anything, it just seems like so much anger, hate, and violence ends up being brought against the Jewish people because, for those who harbour such feelings and urges generally, the Jewish people are what they find after they take a "path of least resistance" approach to ventilating their hate. And I'm done with being disappointed or offended by what Trump does, and does not, say in these kinds of situations. He is who and what he is. And he is a symptom, not a cause, of the problems the country has right now.
LGR4GM Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 Do not agree. Trump is like an infection for someone with a compromised immune symptom. It's co-morbidity. I've heard enough from Donald. I know what he is and I plan to vote against every single one of his supporters that I can next week.
That Aud Smell Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 35 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Trump is like an infection for someone with a compromised immune symptom. It's co-morbidity. I guess I can't really argue with that. Sort of like a bad cough that comes from a viral infection, but then develops into a bacterial infection.
LGR4GM Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said: I guess I can't really argue with that. Sort of like a bad cough that comes from a viral infection, but then develops into a bacterial infection. Your are right the underlying divides and hatred always existed but Trump was a new disease that just exacerbated the symptoms.
That Aud Smell Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 59 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Your are right the underlying divides and hatred always existed but Trump was a new disease that just exacerbated the symptoms. The things he says, and the ways in which he chooses to say them ... they are all such obvious dog whistles to those who harbour those radicalized ideologies. He's emboldening them, even while they would likely say that Trump doesn't do enough to deal with what they view as a problem.
5th line wingnutt Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 https://nypost.com/2018/10/28/gun-toting-rabbi-says-congregants-should-arm-themselves/
5th line wingnutt Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 On 10/29/2018 at 9:12 AM, That Aud Smell said: Certainly not me. As for the matter of armed security: It did surprise me to read a bit -- in the wake of this atrocity -- about how much Jewish congregations around America have done in terms of securing their places of worship. There are apparently Jewish congregations that regularly arrange for armed security -- but usually only around the high holidays. I will admit to being unable to understand anti-Semitism. As in: I literally do not understand it. I don't have a proper grounding in what forms the basis for the hate. More than anything, it just seems like so much anger, hate, and violence ends up being brought against the Jewish people because, for those who harbour such feelings and urges generally, the Jewish people are what they find after they take a "path of least resistance" approach to ventilating their hate. And I'm done with being disappointed or offended by what Trump does, and does not, say in these kinds of situations. He is who and what he is. And he is a symptom, not a cause, of the problems the country has right now. Christians, too. Within recent memory there have been church, synagogue, and at least one mosque shootings. IIRC the mosque shooting was in Canada.
LGR4GM Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 So everyone should go around armed at gatherings just in case. "This isn't freedom, this is fear."
That Aud Smell Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 51 minutes ago, 5th line wingnutt said: Christians, too. Within recent memory there have been church, synagogue, and at least one mosque shootings. IIRC the mosque shooting was in Canada. As for church shootings (in America, anyway), those attacks are not motivated by animus for the Christian faith in the same way that attacks on synagogues are plainly motivated by anti-Semitism. There's a decent write-up on the subject here, although I recall reading a more in-depth analysis of the issue elsewhere. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/us/church-shootings-truth/index.html There's a virulent and despicable subculture in America and elsewhere in the west that vilifies Jewish people in a way that I find stomach-turning and breath-taking. There's no corresponding subculture -- in America, anyway -- that seeks a similar eradication of Christian peoples. It's a dangerous proposition to equate the attack in Pittsburgh with a larger trend of anti-religiosity, as Kelly Conway has sought to do. In modern western culture, Christians have never been slaughtered by the millions because of their religious and ethnic identity. Jewish people have, though.
Hank Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, 5th line wingnutt said: https://nypost.com/2018/10/28/gun-toting-rabbi-says-congregants-should-arm-themselves/ I think this is very interesting. Is the Rabbi right? Is he wrong? Thoughts?
LGR4GM Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, Hank said: I think this is very interesting. Is the Rabbi right? Is he wrong? Thoughts? If he's right, America as we know it has died.
Hank Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: If he's right, America as we know it has died. The problem with relying on police is they are only called after a crime has happened. The Rabbi seems to believe that legally armed members (not guards) could be a deterrent. Could this not be viewed as proactive? Why do you feel it would be bad?
LGR4GM Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, Hank said: The problem with relying on police is they are only called after a crime has happened. The Rabbi seems to believe that legally armed members (not guards) could be a deterrent. Could this not be viewed as proactive? Why do you feel it would be bad? Because you aren't addressing the problem. The problem is fear and hatred. Why in a free country should law abiding citizens arm themselves to the teeth, just in case? It is absolutely ridiculous. We have to proactively go around afraid of being shot. That's not freedom.
That Aud Smell Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, Hank said: The problem with relying on police is they are only called after a crime has happened. The Rabbi seems to believe that legally armed members (not guards) could be a deterrent. Could this not be viewed as proactive? Why do you feel it would be bad? An American where just about everyone carries a gun and can protect themselves with lethal force when they are, or even maybe just feel, threatened. So, back to the wild west. What's old is new again.
SwampD Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said: An American where just about everyone carries a gun and can protect themselves with lethal force when they are, or even maybe just feel, threatened. So, back to the wild west. What's old is new again. I have no problem going back to the wild west. Back then, didn't you have to turn in your guns to the sheriff when you entered a town?
Hank Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Because you aren't addressing the problem. The problem is fear and hatred. Why in a free country should law abiding citizens arm themselves to the teeth, just in case? It is absolutely ridiculous. We have to proactively go around afraid of being shot. That's not freedom. Do you have a better solution? Aside from just hope people act right?
That Aud Smell Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, SwampD said: I have no problem going back to the wild west. Back then, didn't you have to turn in your guns to the sheriff when you entered a town? Haha - fair deuce. I had not thought of that. Based on how that culture is depicted in popular culture, sheriffs in the wild west functioned almost like local warlords. I'm not inclined to welcome an expanded role for strongmen leaders -- we have one of those in the White House already and I think the country's ability to govern and be governed is worse for it.
LGR4GM Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, Hank said: Do you have a better solution? Aside from just hope people act right? I do but that's an entirely different conversation. Also a more complex one.
That Aud Smell Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, Hank said: Do you have a better solution? Aside from just hope people act right? Education and opportunity would go a long, long way. Here in America, by and large, people who develop this level of hate and anger tend to be under-educated and un- or under-employed.
5th line wingnutt Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said: As for church shootings (in America, anyway), those attacks are not motivated by animus for the Christian faith in the same way that attacks on synagogues are plainly motivated by anti-Semitism. There's a decent write-up on the subject here, although I recall reading a more in-depth analysis of the issue elsewhere. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/us/church-shootings-truth/index.html There's a virulent and despicable subculture in America and elsewhere in the west that vilifies Jewish people in a way that I find stomach-turning and breath-taking. There's no corresponding subculture -- in America, anyway -- that seeks a similar eradication of Christian peoples. It's a dangerous proposition to equate the attack in Pittsburgh with a larger trend of anti-religiosity, as Kelly Conway has sought to do. In modern western culture, Christians have never been slaughtered by the millions because of their religious and ethnic identity. Jewish people have, though. I mostly agree. I was only addressing the part of your post that I bolded. My wife belongs to a Christian church. During services they post men at all church entrances. Other Christian churches are also doing this. 1
5th line wingnutt Posted October 30, 2018 Report Posted October 30, 2018 34 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Because you aren't addressing the problem. The problem is fear and hatred. Why in a free country should law abiding citizens arm themselves to the teeth, just in case? It is absolutely ridiculous. We have to proactively go around afraid of being shot. That's not freedom. The immediate problem is to get the shooter to stop. This requires lethal force. 18 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: I do but that's an entirely different conversation. Also a more complex one. If you have a solution to hatred, I'm all ears. Start a thread.
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