Eleven Posted October 27, 2018 Report Posted October 27, 2018 https://www.jta.org/2018/10/27/top-headlines/trump-blames-deaths-pittsburgh-synagogue-lack-armed-guards Is nothing sacred to this cruel man? Nice to see that he's now among a select group of "leaders" who blame Jews for their own violent deaths. I can assure you that there will be no armed guards at Baptisms in my church.
ubkev Posted October 27, 2018 Report Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Eleven said: https://www.jta.org/2018/10/27/top-headlines/trump-blames-deaths-pittsburgh-synagogue-lack-armed-guards Is nothing sacred to this cruel man? Nice to see that he's now among a select group of "leaders" who blame Jews for their own violent deaths. I can assure you that there will be no armed guards at Baptisms in my church. Could you even imagine? Father, mother, godfather, godmother, baby, priest, baptismal font, family and friends....armed security personnel. How truly f###ing dystopian. Edited October 27, 2018 by ubkev
LTS Posted October 27, 2018 Report Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Eleven said: https://www.jta.org/2018/10/27/top-headlines/trump-blames-deaths-pittsburgh-synagogue-lack-armed-guards Is nothing sacred to this cruel man? Nice to see that he's now among a select group of "leaders" who blame Jews for their own violent deaths. I can assure you that there will be no armed guards at Baptisms in my church. Well, the answer to stopping violence is violence right? Also, encouraging armed guards supports his private defense and gun lobby friends. Oh,, and yeah, better if he never opens his mouth... ever. Although, to be honest, he's just proving his an everyday joe.. just because he's President doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to act like your average Internet forum commenter right? Edited October 27, 2018 by LTS
Hank Posted October 27, 2018 Report Posted October 27, 2018 5 hours ago, Eleven said: https://www.jta.org/2018/10/27/top-headlines/trump-blames-deaths-pittsburgh-synagogue-lack-armed-guards Is nothing sacred to this cruel man? Nice to see that he's now among a select group of "leaders" who blame Jews for their own violent deaths. I can assure you that there will be no armed guards at Baptisms in my church. Trump did not"blame Jews for their own violent deaths". #readingcomprehention
Hank Posted October 27, 2018 Report Posted October 27, 2018 1 hour ago, LTS said: Well, the answer to stopping violence is violence right? Also, encouraging armed guards supports his private defense and gun lobby friends. Oh,, and yeah, better if he never opens his mouth... ever. Although, to be honest, he's just proving his an everyday joe.. just because he's President doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to act like your average Internet forum commenter right? Armed guards would have minimized, possibly prevented, this horrific event. There are evil people in the world who can only be deterred by a show of force. It's a sad fact.
Eleven Posted October 27, 2018 Author Report Posted October 27, 2018 13 minutes ago, Hank said: Trump did not"blame Jews for their own violent deaths". #readingcomprehention He sure did, by saying that they should have had an armed guard. He blamed them for not taking precautions; he did not blame the shooter. Your #readingcomprehension snark is another sign that you are unfit for polite political discourse. Straighten it out.
Hank Posted October 27, 2018 Report Posted October 27, 2018 Just now, Eleven said: He sure did, by saying that they should have had an armed guard. He blamed them for not taking precautions; he did not blame the shooter. Your #readingcomprehension snark is another sign that you are unfit for polite political discourse. Straighten it out. No, you're misconstruing what he said to fit your own narrative based on your hate for the man. The snark is well warranted.
Eleven Posted October 27, 2018 Author Report Posted October 27, 2018 Just now, Hank said: No, you're misconstruing what he said to fit your own narrative based on your hate for the man. The snark is well warranted. No, I'm not. And seriously, this is a forum for decent discussion. You're the only one who seems to cross the line. Cut it out. (By way of example: 5th line wingnutt and I wouldn't agree on a thing. But he is polite. You are not.)
Eleven Posted October 27, 2018 Author Report Posted October 27, 2018 16 minutes ago, Hank said: Armed guards would have minimized, possibly prevented, this horrific event. There are evil people in the world who can only be deterred by a show of force. It's a sad fact. Who wants armed guards at every place of worship every week (or in the case of my religion, every day)?
Hank Posted October 27, 2018 Report Posted October 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, Eleven said: No, I'm not. And seriously, this is a forum for decent discussion. You're the only one who seems to cross the line. Cut it out. (By way of example: 5th line wingnutt and I wouldn't agree on a thing. But he is polite. You are not.) You're right, I could be nicer. Snark aside, I truly believe you're purposefully misconstruing what he said. 1 minute ago, Eleven said: Who wants armed guards at every place of worship every week (or in the case of my religion, every day)? Nobody, including me. But what's a better alternative to prevent this? I don't know.
Eleven Posted October 27, 2018 Author Report Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Hank said: You're right, I could be nicer. Snark aside, I truly believe you're purposefully misconstruing what he said. Nobody, including me. But what's a better alternative to prevent this? I don't know. 1. I am not. He didn't blame the shooter. He blamed the congregation. How am I misconstruing this? He blamed the victims. AGAIN. 2. Tolerance for others and loving your neighbor. You know, the Bible stuff that the GOP used to be focused on, when it suited them. Edited October 27, 2018 by Eleven
Hank Posted October 27, 2018 Report Posted October 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Eleven said: 1. I am not. He didn't blame the shooter. He blamed the congregation. How am I misconstruing this? 2. Tolerance for others and loving your neighbor. You know, the Bible stuff that the GOP used to be focused on, when it suited them. 1. He never blamed the congregation, this is an outright lie. 2. Hope people act right? That's your answer? There's evil people in the world. Hoping they act right is keeping your head in the sand, which allows them to do evil things.
Eleven Posted October 27, 2018 Author Report Posted October 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, Hank said: 1. He never blamed the congregation, this is an outright lie. 2. Hope people act right? That's your answer? There's evil people in the world. Hoping they act right is keeping your head in the sand, which allows them to do evil things. Dude, he blamed the congregation for not having an armed guard at the synagogue. How is anything I said an outright lie? Seriously? And how you equate my second point to "hope people act right" is another wonderment. 1
Hank Posted October 27, 2018 Report Posted October 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Eleven said: Dude, he blamed the congregation for not having an armed guard at the synagogue. How is anything I said an outright lie? Seriously? And how you equate my second point to "hope people act right" is another wonderment. Your interpretation of what you think he meant is different from "he said it". It's possible I misunderstood your meaning. Please explain it to me so I can understand.
Eleven Posted October 27, 2018 Author Report Posted October 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, Hank said: Your interpretation of what you think he meant is different from "he said it". It's possible I misunderstood your meaning. Please explain it to me so I can understand. I don't know that I can do better than this: Instead of saying something along the lines of "hey, we had a crazy person on the loose and he chose to shoot up a synagogue," Trump came up with something along the lines of "hey, had the synagogue had an armed guard, this wouldn't have happened." That is blaming the victim. Anyway. Game is on. I'm putting this to rest until it's over! 1
SwampD Posted October 28, 2018 Report Posted October 28, 2018 I don't think Trump went far enough. I mean, don't they know they are Jews and people hate them?! Why aren't they all wearing full combat gear? /sarc Hank, you are wrong. Eleven is right. At least on this. Trump's comment is the epitome of insensitive and just plain fuhking stupid. 1
ubkev Posted October 28, 2018 Report Posted October 28, 2018 12 hours ago, Hank said: Armed guards would have minimized, possibly prevented, this horrific event. There are evil people in the world who can only be deterred by a show of force. It's a sad fact. Didn't he shoot a bunch of cops?
Eleven Posted October 28, 2018 Author Report Posted October 28, 2018 38 minutes ago, ubkev said: Didn't he shoot a bunch of cops? He sure did. Armed cops, even.
Hank Posted October 28, 2018 Report Posted October 28, 2018 2 hours ago, ubkev said: Didn't he shoot a bunch of cops? 2 hours ago, Eleven said: He sure did. Armed cops, even. Yes, yes he did. Armed guards may not have helped here. No, I don't want armed guards in churches, including mine. Yes, they are an effective deterrent. 1
Weave Posted October 28, 2018 Report Posted October 28, 2018 30 minutes ago, Hank said: Yes, they are an effective deterrent. I'm not convinced of the deterrence level of armed guards in shootings like these. In the vast majority of these the shooter is inclined to go down in a hail of bullets. It's not often that they run and hide when (or before) the armed response arrives.
Hank Posted October 28, 2018 Report Posted October 28, 2018 12 minutes ago, Weave said: I'm not convinced of the deterrence level of armed guards in shootings like these. In the vast majority of these the shooter is inclined to go down in a hail of bullets. It's not often that they run and hide when (or before) the armed response arrives. Maybe, maybe not, you may be right. These people, when they're planning out their horrific events, may be planning on suicide by cop. Or maybe in the moment they figure death is better than a lifetime in jail. We're not able to ask them after the fact. But, these people aren't choosing to shoot up places with a large police presence and/or armed guards (I acknowledge there are exceptions, exceptions don't prove the rule). Maybe for these people, instead of fear of death, the deterrent would be they may not be able to inflict the greatest amount of damage that they want. It's still a deterrent.
LTS Posted October 28, 2018 Report Posted October 28, 2018 19 hours ago, Hank said: Armed guards would have minimized, possibly prevented, this horrific event. There are evil people in the world who can only be deterred by a show of force. It's a sad fact. 2 hours ago, Hank said: Maybe, maybe not, you may be right. These people, when they're planning out their horrific events, may be planning on suicide by cop. Or maybe in the moment they figure death is better than a lifetime in jail. We're not able to ask them after the fact. But, these people aren't choosing to shoot up places with a large police presence and/or armed guards (I acknowledge there are exceptions, exceptions don't prove the rule). Maybe for these people, instead of fear of death, the deterrent would be they may not be able to inflict the greatest amount of damage that they want. It's still a deterrent. The problem with the concept of deterrence is that you can't ask people about it. No one raises their hand and says, "I would have shot up that place but because there's a guard there I chose not to." There is a perception that it stops violence. I don't know that it's proven. Certainly the concept is based on military demonstrations of force that lead to opposition not attacking as they could. Perhaps it's similar when applying it to a single lunatic, perhaps not. The illogical are impossible to predict. In any event, the statement encourages an escalation of violence to prevent more violence which is not the right solution. Having an armed guard just means that person will be the first to get shot. Then the answer is two armed guards? If you put enough armed guards there then it's easier to just blow it up. Maniacs will attempt to create violence. The answer is trying to stop it before they ever get there. The answer lies in the events and way we treat people for all the days prior to the day they decide they want to destroy. Even then, violence will never be stopped entirely. At least not unless we develop some kind of brain insert that can monitor when a person is about to commit an act of violence and neutralizes the threat.... but I don't see people signing up for that.
Weave Posted October 28, 2018 Report Posted October 28, 2018 6 hours ago, Hank said: Maybe, maybe not, you may be right. These people, when they're planning out their horrific events, may be planning on suicide by cop. Or maybe in the moment they figure death is better than a lifetime in jail. We're not able to ask them after the fact. But, these people aren't choosing to shoot up places with a large police presence and/or armed guards (I acknowledge there are exceptions, exceptions don't prove the rule). Maybe for these people, instead of fear of death, the deterrent would be they may not be able to inflict the greatest amount of damage that they want. It's still a deterrent. How many places are there with large police presence? Government facilities, airports. What else? You aren't going to have many events at places with large armed presence because there just aren't many of those places around. And the ones that are around are typically government associated. These events haven't been targeted at our government, they've been targeted at specific groups of people. It's just not realistic to expect armed presence everywhere that groups of hated people gather. In one form or another, we're all hated by somebody. And so it is counter productive to go around shouting about how this might not have happened if there were an armed presence.
5th line wingnutt Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Weave said: How many places are there with large police presence? Government facilities, airports. What else? You aren't going to have many events at places with large armed presence because there just aren't many of those places around. And the ones that are around are typically government associated. These events haven't been targeted at our government, they've been targeted at specific groups of people. It's just not realistic to expect armed presence everywhere that groups of hated people gather. In one form or another, we're all hated by somebody. And so it is counter productive to go around shouting about how this might not have happened if there were an armed presence. Concealed carry permit...and a working firearm.
Sabel79 Posted October 29, 2018 Report Posted October 29, 2018 19 minutes ago, 5th line wingnutt said: Concealed carry permit...and a working firearm. By all means, let's penalize the non-weapon toting for the actions of madmen abetted by a minority of society.
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