LTS Posted October 15, 2018 Report Posted October 15, 2018 Came across this article, which is a lead-in to a book recommendation, but it still seems to frame up the aspects of how social media and other information outlets are being used as the new battlefield. I'll probably read the book as this kind of stuff interests me. https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/12/17967544/likewar-social-media-pw-singer-interview My favorite is the reference to a US Army officer statement "Indeed, I often think about a quote in the book from a retired US Army officer, who described how every village once had an idiot. And now, the internet has brought them all together and made them more powerful than ever before."
Weave Posted October 15, 2018 Report Posted October 15, 2018 Who knew Idiocracy was a prophetic tale?
LTS Posted October 15, 2018 Author Report Posted October 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, Weave said: Who knew Idiocracy was a prophetic tale? Every day it's more and more the reality. Although one could say that we are repeating history, lots of people point to the Roman Empire and like to claim we are heading that path albeit in a 21st century way.
Hank Posted October 15, 2018 Report Posted October 15, 2018 30 minutes ago, LTS said: Every day it's more and more the reality. Although one could say that we are repeating history, lots of people point to the Roman Empire and like to claim we are heading that path albeit in a 21st century way. We can not will not won't not end up like the Roman empire, it's not even possible. I am curious though, and may be persuaded by your answer, what do you mean by the "21st century way?"
SwampD Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 4 hours ago, Weave said: Who knew Idiocracy was a prophetic tale? Everyone who watched it and isn't an idiot themself.
LTS Posted October 16, 2018 Author Report Posted October 16, 2018 Without getting too detailed... The Roman Empire was responsible for building a massive infrastructure that opened the world up where it ruled. This infrastructure allowed for information to move around much more easily than before. An increase information allowed people to know more, see more, obtain more. The end of the Roman Empire came when cultures who did not agree with the Roman rule increased efforts to fight back the Roman armies. The Emperors of Rome were undermined by power struggles and corruption of government and ruled a society that had become lazy and complacent. In essence, everyone wanted more of the good life and were too busy fighting each other to realize that their good life was on the brink of destruction. There are many other reasons that all feed off each other that helped precipitate the fall, but by and large that should be sufficient for now. The 21st century way is to use the speed of the Internet to spread messages to those who are against what this country and its allies have built. They cannot stand directly against the armies like the Germanic tribes did Rome. That said, they can use our complacency against us by engaging in information warfare. The concept of "fake news" isn't something just born of the last few years though the phrase might be. We've been slowly escalated against each other to the point now where people will attack each other over the smallest of things. We no longer see the fault of our own but attack those with the same faults. We are being coerced into disarray and distracted from events that really matter. While we are too busy fighting each other those states that would see our culture destroyed are waiting for the moment when we tear ourselves apart and at that point they can move. One only need to look at the divisions within the people in Germany, England, Belgium, France, United States, and so on to see that we are being set against each other in an attempt to weaken who we are. Are we so naive to think that those divisions and issues are not being driven by careful manipulation of information? That's why I am interested in what this book has to say. However, given the evidence at play in recent stories and those that go back 15-20 years on how information is being used against us, I'm not interested in determining if this is happening so much as being more informed on how it is happening. The similarities to the issues the Roman Empire experienced and what our society is experiencing are there. It's not exact, but it's not that far off either. 1
SwampD Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Hank said: We can not will not won't not end up like the Roman empire, it's not even possible. I am curious though, and may be persuaded by your answer, what do you mean by the "21st century way?" We absolutely could.
Hank Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 Swamp and LTS, my knowledge of world history is limited, so please correct me if I'm wrong. In the most simplistic terms, the Roman empire, and every empire before them, invaded neighboring countries in an attempt at world domination, spread themselves too thin, and were eventually defeated. Is this correct? If so, how do you believe that to be our inevitable future? Government power may shift between Democrats and Republicans, and maybe one day a third party, but I don't believe any of them would deplete our military to the point where it's not the strongest in the world. We have no desire for world domination. We don't invade our neighbors. It's not possible to invade us. What am I missing? Help me out here.
drnkirishone Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) It is not about physically conquering places anymore. The world wars mostly phased that out. What it is about is placing our ideals, morals, and culture above others and making them adhere to it. Thru economic, cultural pressure, and military might. It is what makes trump so dangerous. He endangers the world standing and believe in the US on a global scale. A scale that was forged with us at the center. If countries stop looking to the US for answers and/or solutions it weakens our national buying power and influence. Which would be basically what has happened to every world power from Rome up to Britain Edited October 16, 2018 by drnkirishone
Hank Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 2 hours ago, drnkirishone said: It is not about physically conquering places anymore. The world wars mostly phased that out. What it is about is placing our ideals, morals, and culture above others and making them adhere to it. Thru economic, cultural pressure, and military might. It is what makes trump so dangerous. He endangers the world standing and believe in the US on a global scale. A scale that was forged with us at the center. If countries stop looking to the US for answers and/or solutions it weakens our national buying power and influence. Which would be basically what has happened to every world power from Rome up to Britain Every culture (at least most) places thier ideals and morals above others, it's always been that way, very few try to make others adhere to theirs. I don't think Trump much cares about others culture's, just about solid business deals, which he is currently trying to do on a national scale in his role as president. Other countries will always look to us for answers, mostly for our military, as they have since WWI. I don't remember Britain ever being a super power on our level.
LGR4GM Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 8 hours ago, Hank said: Swamp and LTS, my knowledge of world history is limited, so please correct me if I'm wrong. In the most simplistic terms, the Roman empire, and every empire before them, invaded neighboring countries in an attempt at world domination, spread themselves too thin, and were eventually defeated. Is this correct? If so, how do you believe that to be our inevitable future? Government power may shift between Democrats and Republicans, and maybe one day a third party, but I don't believe any of them would deplete our military to the point where it's not the strongest in the world. We have no desire for world domination. We don't invade our neighbors. It's not possible to invade us. What am I missing? Help me out here. That is not correct in regards to the Roman Empire. One of the reasons the Roman's could build their empire was because of their ability to fold conquered cultures and civilization into their society. The Roman Republic fell because the Roman Senate refused to allow Caesar a clear path to his 2nd consulship. Caesar wanted to hold imperium until he was elected Consul again in 48BC. The Senate wanted him to lay down his command in 49BC. Caesar being Caesar refused and things escalated. The entire thing came down to a group of powerful senators, including Caesar, not wishing to see the other succeed. It was better to stop or vote against something, even if it was useful, instead of allowing your opponent to succeed. Thus republic fell with Caesar winning the Civil War, being assassinated, and his adopted son Octavius skillfully consolidating power over a roughly 15 year period. The end of the US won't be the fall of the Roman Empire, it will be the fall of the Roman Republic, IMPO. Can we prevent that? Yes. Will we? God I hope so.
LGR4GM Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Hank said: Every culture (at least most) places thier ideals and morals above others, it's always been that way, very few try to make others adhere to theirs. I don't think Trump much cares about others culture's, just about solid business deals, which he is currently trying to do on a national scale in his role as president. Other countries will always look to us for answers, mostly for our military, as they have since WWI. I don't remember Britain ever being a super power on our level. WWII. After WWI we were still not the biggest player in the world although it helped consolidate our NA power. Britain was a super power throughout the 17 and 1800's. You could argue they were a super power until the end of their colonial period in which almost all of their former colonies gained independence (India, African Countries, etc..) But Trump is exported his culture. His culture is money and business with no regards for other things. That is a culture. Edited October 16, 2018 by LGR4GM
LTS Posted October 16, 2018 Author Report Posted October 16, 2018 9 hours ago, Hank said: Swamp and LTS, my knowledge of world history is limited, so please correct me if I'm wrong. In the most simplistic terms, the Roman empire, and every empire before them, invaded neighboring countries in an attempt at world domination, spread themselves too thin, and were eventually defeated. Is this correct? If so, how do you believe that to be our inevitable future? Government power may shift between Democrats and Republicans, and maybe one day a third party, but I don't believe any of them would deplete our military to the point where it's not the strongest in the world. We have no desire for world domination. We don't invade our neighbors. It's not possible to invade us. What am I missing? Help me out here. The question today isn't so much about what our government is doing but what our society is doing. We have become disillusioned into the belief that we are untouchable and above all others. We spend more time arguing between ourselves than paying attention to the world. We are, by all counts, a self-absorbed society that has no awareness of the world going on around us. Much like the the citizens of Rome were glued to gladiator matches, we are glued to our entertainment venues. Whether it is news about events or celebrities, games (both computer and sporting events, or movies and television shows, we are constantly distracted from life. The Romans, too, were distracted from reality. The United States, through its continued involvement in the affairs of other countries, has long been engaged in world domination. It's not physical occupation but rather control over the resources of countries to benefit the corporations that line the politicians pockets. Any attempt at war the scale of which the Roman Empire embodied or even WWI or WWII would only end in the near destruction of civilization at this point. As maniacal as any leader has been to date, none of them are necessarily ready to give up the planet (thankfully). This is what I mean by the fall of the United States via the 21st century way. It won't be direct military action, but to decay our society from the inside out until such point that we destroy ourselves. Outside agencies fueling the fires of organizations like Antifa and white supremacists to escalate conflict. Pushing the hot buttons of society until even average citizens are swearing back and forth and threatening each other on Internet forums. Of course, the United States maintains a massive military and the costs of maintaining that military are felt by cuts in other programs that could benefit society. This is hardly different than what happened with the Roman Empire as well. Certainly they were involved in more conflicts, but simply maintaining armies comes with a great cost. By all estimations, the United States spends more on its military than any other country, and its not even close. Recent 2017 estimations put the US Military budget at $610B. The 2nd largest budget is estimated at $228B (China). From there it's Saudi Arabia ($69.4B), Russia ($66.3B), and India ($63.9B). In fact, the United States spends more than the next 7 highest countries combined. (https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2018-04/sipri_fs_1805_milex_2017.pdf) Meanwhile, when comparing military expense inside the US budget alone, the discretionary spending budget of $1.11T sees the military spending roughly $598B compared to education $70B. The total budget of $3.8T (mandatory and discretionary) puts the military at $609B and education at $229B. It's certainly a lot of money to spend on education when we see the US spending more on education than any other country spends on its own military, but relative to its military spending, one can see that massive amounts of funds are used just to support the military. (https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/) - 2015 budget.
LGR4GM Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 This was an interesting opinion piece. https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/16/opinions/trump-calling-democrats-a-mob-berlatsky/index.html Quote As usual, Donald Trump was the most explicit conduit for this Republican strategy of delegitimization. At a rally last Tuesday in Iowa, Trump boasted about putting Brett Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court, and praised Republican tax cuts. But he then went further, declaring, "The Democrats have become too extreme. And they've become, frankly, too dangerous to govern. They've gone wacko."
Hank Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 2 hours ago, LGR4GM said: This was an interesting opinion piece. https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/16/opinions/trump-calling-democrats-a-mob-berlatsky/index.html He continues to be his own worst enemy. I sure hope the Dems have someone I can vote for in 2020.
5th line wingnutt Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 28 minutes ago, Hank said: He continues to be his own worst enemy. I sure hope the Dems have someone I can vote for in 2020. Kind of depends on how many people agree with him.
LGR4GM Posted October 17, 2018 Report Posted October 17, 2018 Rough estimates are in the 30% area. I don't agree with him even as he tries to march us towards a dictatorship.
LTS Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Posted October 17, 2018 Interesting tweet I saw last night... I don't even follow these people but it got pulled into my view somehow. This is the information war. The more we break our face to face relationships and turn people into digital avatars the less we can be convinced that anyone who writes anything is a real person or not being paid to say something. The company I work for uses a program to track how often we share corporate press releases onto social media platforms. We get criticized for not being corporate shills on things like Twitter and LinkedIn. It's to the point that I have hidden my LinkedIn account from them just so they think I no longer have one.
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