Pope Francis implicated

[ubkev]

https://twitter.com/i/moments/1033706245696507904

This guy throws absolutely everyone under the bus as having known about Cardinal McCarrick's actions. Will this end up being a big deal? Doubt it. The Catholic Church still has all the money on Earth. This will go away. 

McCarrick was the first Cardinal to fully resign in 91 years, after accusations of sexual abuse. And the guy who is spilling the beans says that Benedict knew and Francis knew. And not only did the church do nothing, they appointed him to be Cardinal Archbishop in Washington(in 2000 before their reign(s) as Pope.

Edited August 26, 2018 by ubkev

[ubkev]

Hey, anybody remember when Rudy Giuliani said that the church needed a one strike and you're out policy on Priests who sexually assault people? Then Pope John Paul 2 and the Cardinals and bishops all said "well hey now, we can kick out a priest for diddling just one kid, that's crazy talk. Forgiveness is key. Forgive your neighbor who sinned against you not seven times, but as many as seventy times seven." Just like Jesus said to Peter, right guys?

 

F--- these guys with a rusty jackhammer. F--- them so hard!

[Eleven]

I can understand your passion on the topic, especially if you're Catholic, but nothing that Archbishop Vigano alleged has anything to do with abuse of children.  Abuse of adults, yes.  And still they are allegations.

[ubkev]

Right you are, seminary students and priests. My second post was more of an aside...I tend to ramble sometimes.

And right you are again on them just being allegations. But...the Catholic Church certainly hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt. Not for one second. None of them deserve it.

Edited August 27, 2018 by ubkev

[Eleven]

5 hours ago, ubkev said:

Right you are, seminary students and priests. My second post was more of an aside...I tend to ramble sometimes.

And right you are again on them just being allegations. But...the Catholic Church certainly hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt. Not for one second. None of them deserve it.

That includes Vigano, though.

[ubkev]

15 minutes ago, Eleven said:

That includes Vigano, though.

Of course. I admittedly skew towards the side of "they all covered everything up" but he's either slandering (libel?) everyone or he's telling the truth, right? I bet it goes away quickly, before we ever know. That will skew my opinion further.

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, ubkev said:

Of course. I admittedly skew towards the side of "they all covered everything up" but he's either slandering (libel?) everyone or he's telling the truth, right? I bet it goes away quickly, before we ever know. That will skew my opinion further.

1.  I think this one has an agenda.  He certainly didn't speak up when Benedict was Pope, and he had every opportunity and reason to do so then.  

2.  On the "goes away quickly"; I think you're right, on the international level (and this is unfortunate because the rot must be purged).  Here in Buffalo, I'm not so sure.  I think Malone is in real jeopardy.  This is now at least the third bishop out of the last four involved in covering this sh&t up.  (I'm unsure about Kmiec.)  I know its a newer situation in Pennsylvania, but this scandal is in its third decade here in Buffalo.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Eleven

[ubkev]

1. Benedict was only Pope for like 15 minutes, had the Hitler youth thing, the Vatican Bank thing and some abuse scandals elsewhere to deal with though. All while being "too old for this s---" as he and church spokesmen said when he resigned. I admit, he was glossed over in the allegations of yesterday, but what do you think the agenda is against Francis? I'm asking honestly, as I obviously know nothing of Vigano until I read this yesterday.

2. I'm relatively new to Pennsylvania, amd I certainly don't attention church, but folks around here have been talking about a particular priest in the diocese for at least a decade and a half, if they're to be believed. "Oh we heard about him almost 20 years ago....he's the one that forced that girl to have an abortion and the archdiocese covered it up..." It comes up when there's a news story. It goes away a week later when there's a football game. 

[LTS]

Yeah.. sounds about right.

I'm going to stay out of this conversation... I find religious discussions to be infinitely more difficult to navigate compared to political.

 

[Eleven]

3 hours ago, ubkev said:

1. Benedict was only Pope for like 15 minutes, had the Hitler youth thing, the Vatican Bank thing and some abuse scandals elsewhere to deal with though. All while being "too old for this s---" as he and church spokesmen said when he resigned. I admit, he was glossed over in the allegations of yesterday, but what do you think the agenda is against Francis? I'm asking honestly, as I obviously know nothing of Vigano until I read this yesterday.

2. I'm relatively new to Pennsylvania, amd I certainly don't attention church, but folks around here have been talking about a particular priest in the diocese for at least a decade and a half, if they're to be believed. "Oh we heard about him almost 20 years ago....he's the one that forced that girl to have an abortion and the archdiocese covered it up..." It comes up when there's a news story. It goes away a week later when there's a football game. 

Benedict was Pope for nearly twice as long as Francis has been and it has been established (but has not been nearly as widely publicized) that (1) he allegedly knew whatever Francis is alleged to have known and (2) Vigano's "evidence" predates Francis's papacy.

There is a severe backlash against Francis among hardliners in the Church.  Among other things, he has asked priests to distribute communion to remarried divorced people and he has asked for more tolerance towards gays in the Church.  He also is a distributist, which many completely misperceive as socialist.

Sad that folks in your community didn't take care of things when they should have...equally sad here, too.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Eleven

[ubkev]

26 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Benedict was Pope for nearly twice as long as Francis has been and it has been established (but has not been nearly as widely publicized) that (1) he allegedly knew whatever Francis is alleged to have known and (2) Vigano's "evidence" predates Francis's papacy.

There is a severe backlash against Francis among hardliners in the Church.  Among other things, he has asked priests to distribute communion to remarried divorced people and he has asked for more tolerance towards gays in the Church.  He also is a distributist, which many completely misperceive as socialist.

Sad that folks in your community didn't take care of things when they should have...equally sad here, too.

Ok, so I've been reading. Evidently Vigano is among those that disagree with Francis' stance on reaching out to gays in the church, and blames current church sexual abuse scandals on gays, according to the New York Times. Then goes on to claim that he told Francis personally of McCarrick in June of '13. So that'd be what, like a month into his papacy?

So from that, I can come to 2 conclusions. Where there is smoke there is fire. Or, a Hail Mary from a conservative priest who has a problem with gays in the church and the guy who removed him from his last post and all of his friends (I guess a lot of the other names he named support Francis).

Whatever it may be, I say time won't tell.

2 hours ago, LTS said:

Yeah.. sounds about right.

I'm going to stay out of this conversation... I find religious discussions to be infinitely more difficult to navigate compared to political.

 

Oh come on, this is an ultra civil conversation.

What could go wrong?

[Eleven]

3 hours ago, ubkev said:

Ok, so I've been reading. Evidently Vigano is among those that disagree with Francis' stance on reaching out to gays in the church, and blames current church sexual abuse scandals on gays, according to the New York Times. Then goes on to claim that he told Francis personally of McCarrick in June of '13. So that'd be what, like a month into his papacy?

So from that, I can come to 2 conclusions. Where there is smoke there is fire. Or, a Hail Mary from a conservative priest who has a problem with gays in the church and the guy who removed him from his last post and all of his friends (I guess a lot of the other names he named support Francis).

Whatever it may be, I say time won't tell.

If Vigano told Francis personally in May 2013, he would have had ammo to stop his election as Pope in March 2013.  The dates are too close, and there have been more than a few articles (mostly in Catholic publications) stating that he should have gone to Benedict in 2012 or earlier.  Regardless, it's inexcusable on his part.  The fact that he has come out now with allegations is purely political.  I'm not kidding; you won't find a body more politic than the College of Cardinals, and Vigano isn't even there (yet...I hope never, because he covered this sh&t up as much as anyone, if it rose that high).

I do think it might be the second of your two options.  I pray that it is.

_________________________________________________________

Quote

Oh come on, this is an ultra civil conversation.

What could go wrong?

If LTS doesn't want in on this thread, he doesn't want in. It's ok.  So far, it's you and me, and I think it has not only been civil, but educational from my perspective.  I'm a cradle Catholic and I love my Church.  I can hardly bear watching what I'm watching, but I've been through worse in life; still, I am learning some perspective from you.  But If LTS wants out, why not?  He doesn't have to opine on every subject in this club.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Eleven

[ubkev]

@Eleven, I was just teasing LTS. Purely in jest. I honestly didn't expect anyone to want to touch this thread. I'm very pleased with our conversation as it grants me perspective as well. And you force me to read more to become better informed. I appreciate it.

My young life and much of my education was entrusted to the Catholic Church. Catholic School, church every weekend, alter server as soon as I was old enough, Master of ceremonies after that. My priest actually gave me his Mustang to take to my Senior Prom. I left the church in '04. I was never abused, and never knew anyone who was. I've got my reasons, but it's a long story.

Did you happen to see the story today about the Catholic orphanage in Burlington,VT? Bad stuff, man. Ancient history, but bad stuff.

[Eleven]

For the bishop's motives:  https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/27/us/vigano-pope-resign-abuse-analysis/index.html

I did not read the story about Vermont.  I know what happened in Ireland, though, and it was disgusting.

You've got your reasons, and I will never, ever argue with them.  Nor will I say stuff like "I pray for your return" or any of that.  You do you.  My life changed irreparably about 5 years ago, and I found myself drawn closer.  (I had been away from the Church for quite some time before then.)

As for LTS:  I'm sorry I took you so seriously!

[LTS]

17 hours ago, ubkev said:

 

Oh come on, this is an ultra civil conversation.

What could go wrong?

 

13 hours ago, Eleven said:

I

If LTS doesn't want in on this thread, he doesn't want in. It's ok.  So far, it's you and me, and I think it has not only been civil, but educational from my perspective.  I'm a cradle Catholic and I love my Church.  I can hardly bear watching what I'm watching, but I've been through worse in life; still, I am learning some perspective from you.  But If LTS wants out, why not?  He doesn't have to opine on every subject in this club.

Well, it has been a civil conversation and for that I applaud.

Believe me... I have a hard time staying out of this conversation.

Let me say this... after 20 minutes of writing and erasing words...

The Catholic Church seems to be content to continue adding to its long and storied history of covering up sexual predatory behavior by its clergy.  Knowing that in almost all cases what is reported is only a fraction of what actually happens (regarding pretty much any crime) it only makes the situation worse.  Given its lack of real action regarding these matters the discussion, for me, starts with whether it should continue to be recognized as a legal religious entity within the United States and if the entire leadership should be indicted for its complicit behavior and response to abuse by its leadership.

The school presidents of both Michigan State and Penn State were forced to resign in the midst of child sexual abuse that occurred while they were in charge of the organization.

The CEO of Uber was forced to resign due to sexual harassment.

However, when it comes to the Catholic Church people seem content to debate "who knew what" despite the fact that the amount of abuse perpetrated by the clergy of the Catholic Church dwarfs that of Larry Nassar and Jerry Sandusky combined.

So... I guess I just jumped into the pool.

 

 

 

[Drunkard]

I agree with LTS. Too many people in power have looked the other way and swept stuff under the rug, most likely to protect the name of the Church and to keep donations rolling in. People can do whatever they want and pray to whatever they wish but giving money to an organization that corrupt is only going to continue to encourage them to keep business as usual.

The Catholic Church needs a reformation because the only thing that's going to stop this criminal activity at this point is empty pews and empty coffers. I hope I'm alive to see it, but given that they've been corrupt for centuries, I'll be dead and gone a long time before they get their act together.

I'm not a fan of religion in general but I will say I like Francis a heck of a lot more than either of his predecessors (which is almost blasphemous given my Slavic heritage and what a hard on my family had for John Paul II).

I still wish nothing but bad things for all churches and I hope all the negative publicity continues to make religious less important in the lives of the citizenry. Maybe once that happens we can move forward as a society rather than clinging to a bronze age book full of bigotry, misogyny, and hockum. 

[That Aud Smell]

I think one of Francis's chief failures as a pope has been his inability to get his head wrapped around the nature and extent of the sexual abuse problem in the RC Church.

But I think he's shown signs of being able to learn and admit mistakes. Which country was it - Chile? - where he initially expressed skepticism over claims of abuse and then later came back with a big ol' mea culpa. There have been several Chilean (?) bishops who have resigned in the wake of the allegations being investigated and validated.

I'm really not sure what to make of the Vigano stuff. It feels political.

For my own part, I want every last one of the abusers and enablers out on their fuc.king ears. Out. Get the fu.ck out of my Church.

There's a natural, almost inevitable fraternal sense of loyalty that priests develop for each other -- it's not unlike what cops experience (blue wall of silence, etc.). So many priests end up with a sense of superiority over lay people. A sense of entitlement because they sacrifice so much (and, honestly, so many of them do). Anyway, priests often become "churchmen" -- devoted first to the preservation of the mother Church's order and hierarchy.

Well, fu.ck that sideways. Time for change, motherfukkers.

I don't begrudge anyone who feels differently -- that the Church's culture of abuse and enabling abuse is a bridge too far -- but, for my own part, I have such a stake in the thing that my reaction is to tell them to get out -- I don't want to leave because they're there. They are like intruders in my home.

[darksabre]

5 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I think one of Francis's chief failures as a pope has been his inability to get his head wrapped around the nature and extent of the sexual abuse problem in the RC Church.

But I think he's shown signs of being able to learn and admit mistakes. Which country was it - Chile? - where he initially expressed skepticism over claims of abuse and then later came back with a big ol' mea culpa. There have been several Chilean (?) bishops who have resigned in the wake of the allegations being investigated and validated.

I'm really not sure what to make of the Vigano stuff. It feels political.

For my own part, I want every last one of the abusers and enablers out on their fuc.king ears. Out. Get the fu.ck out of my Church.

There's a natural, almost inevitable fraternal sense of loyalty that priests develop for each other -- it's not unlike what cops experience (blue wall of silence, etc.). So many priests end up with a sense of superiority over lay people. A sense of entitlement because they sacrifice so much (and, honestly, so many of them do). Anyway, priests often become "churchmen" -- devoted first to the preservation of the mother Church's order and hierarchy.

Well, fu.ck that sideways. Time for change, motherfukkers.

I don't begrudge anyone who feels differently -- that the Church's culture of abuse and enabling abuse is a bridge too far -- but, for my own part, I have such a stake in the thing that my reaction is to tell them to get out -- I don't want to leave because they're there. They are like intruders in my home.

Simply kicking them all out isn't really going to solve this, is it? I mean, this is a problem that has plagued the Catholic church for how long now, through how many generations of priests? I don't want to call the Catholic church a breeding ground for predators but...it's a breeding ground for predators. This whole thing is endemic to the church, across continents and generations. I don't think you can just cut the cancer out. 

[Drunkard]

They need a reformation. They should start by appointing some sort of board of directors (with no one from current leadership) and it needs to consists of mostly women. Organizations that exclude women from leadership tend to run into these problems whether it's the US Military, the Catholic Church, The Boy Scouts of America, many businesses, and so on.

They need to make an example by kicking out the enablers in addition to the offenders all the way up the chain, even if that extends to the Pope himself. Anything less is just slapping a new coat of paint on a termite infested and dilapidated house that will continue to rot from the inside out. Allow women to be priests, cardinals, bishops, and pope and allow male priests to get married so the position isn't such a magnet for closet homosexuals. Major changes like this might actually help them get their act together and hopefully prevent the bulk of abuse in the future.

[That Aud Smell]

47 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Simply kicking them all out isn't really going to solve this, is it? I mean, this is a problem that has plagued the Catholic church for how long now, through how many generations of priests? I don't want to call the Catholic church a breeding ground for predators but...it's a breeding ground for predators. This whole thing is endemic to the church, across continents and generations. I don't think you can just cut the cancer out. 

Yes, yes. That's true. And fair.

But, for present purposes, you do need to cut the cancers out. And then keep identifying and cutting them out.

And then:

21 minutes ago, Alkoholist said:

They need a reformation. They should start by appointing some sort of board of directors (with no one from current leadership) and it needs to consists of mostly women. Organizations that exclude women from leadership tend to run into these problems whether it's the US Military, the Catholic Church, The Boy Scouts of America, many businesses, and so on.

They need to make an example by kicking out the enablers in addition to the offenders all the way up the chain, even if that extends to the Pope himself. Anything less is just slapping a new coat of paint on a termite infested and dilapidated house that will continue to rot from the inside out. Allow women to be priests, cardinals, bishops, and pope and allow male priests to get married so the position isn't such a magnet for closet homosexuals. Major changes like this might actually help them get their act together and hopefully prevent the bulk of abuse in the future.

 

Getting women and laity into meaningful positions of leadership is the only way forward for the RC Church.

[darksabre]

28 minutes ago, Alkoholist said:

They need a reformation. They should start by appointing some sort of board of directors (with no one from current leadership) and it needs to consists of mostly women. Organizations that exclude women from leadership tend to run into these problems whether it's the US Military, the Catholic Church, The Boy Scouts of America, many businesses, and so on.

They need to make an example by kicking out the enablers in addition to the offenders all the way up the chain, even if that extends to the Pope himself. Anything less is just slapping a new coat of paint on a termite infested and dilapidated house that will continue to rot from the inside out. Allow women to be priests, cardinals, bishops, and pope and allow male priests to get married so the position isn't such a magnet for closet homosexuals. Major changes like this might actually help them get their act together and hopefully prevent the bulk of abuse in the future.

I think this is likely the need. The problem would be the desire. How do you convince the Catholic Church that they need to reform, and who within the Church would have the guts to start it? 

[Drunkard]

1 minute ago, darksabre said:

I think this is likely the need. The problem would be the desire. How do you convince the Catholic Church that they need to reform, and who within the Church would have the guts to start it? 

Empty pews and empty coffers is the only way it happens. Bad press and very public lawsuits certainly hasn't shamed them into doing the right thing. Like any corrupt business (and religion is a business) the only way to hurt them is to hit them in their wallets.

[That Aud Smell]

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I think this is likely the need. The problem would be the desire. How do you convince the Catholic Church that they need to reform, and who within the Church would have the guts to start it? 

The Church needs heroes, for sure.

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, Alkoholist said:

Empty pews and empty coffers is the only way it happens. Bad press and very public lawsuits certainly hasn't shamed them into doing the right thing. Like any corrupt business (and religion is a business) the only way to hurt them is to hit them in their wallets.

I dunno. I know the church has supposedly lost ground financially over the years, but I think there are still plenty of die-hards who wont leave the church no matter how messed up it gets. They've got a base, and that base has to have known that this stuff was possible in their own back yards. Catholic priests abusing people is not a new phenomenon. If you're not aware of the possibility of it happening in your own church then you're being willfully ignorant. That's "faith" I guess. 

[Drunkard]

30 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I dunno. I know the church has supposedly lost ground financially over the years, but I think there are still plenty of die-hards who wont leave the church no matter how messed up it gets. They've got a base, and that base has to have known that this stuff was possible in their own back yards. Catholic priests abusing people is not a new phenomenon. If you're not aware of the possibility of it happening in your own church then you're being willfully ignorant. That's "faith" I guess. 

Even die-hards have a breaking point though. If every Catholic church stood empty this coming up Sunday and the donations stopped coming in, they'd find the motivation to clean up their act quickly. Of course it probably won't happen though, so they'll continue on with business as usual.

It's not unlike sports fandom in a way. The Sabres have thousands of die hards who bought tickets no matter how bad the team was/is and every year like clockwork they continued to raise prices. The waiting list for season tickets suddenly evaporates and they decide to NOT raise prices. I doubt it's a coincidence.

Every individual church goer probably has his/her breaking point, it's just a question of how many more scandals have to break before guys like Eleven and Smell, (I'm going out on a limb and assuming you guys still attend services and put money in the collection plate) and the millions of others who attend service regularly say enough is enough. It probably won't take empty pews, maybe a 50% reduction in attendance and funds sends the message. Outside of that, I don't see anything changing. Scandals and bad press have been happening for decades now and nothing has stopped it yet.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Alkoholist