SABRES 0311 Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 25 minutes ago, SwampD said: Not this single act, obviously, but if more “successful”, it may have inspired more acts of violence maybe at a local level. Yeah it could definitely inspire others. There’s also the possibility of escalation by both politically like minded and political opposition. What I mean is we (some Americans) went from burning buildings, riots and unarmed occupation to carrying weapons to state capitols and occupation. Now we have forcible entry by armed people in DC. This progression happened quickly. The common theme I identify is perversion of messaging. This is a tactic of international terrorist organizations for recruitment and motivation for execution of operations.
SwampD Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Yeah it could definitely inspire others. There’s also the possibility of escalation by both politically like minded and political opposition. What I mean is we (some Americans) went from burning buildings, riots and unarmed occupation to carrying weapons to state capitols and occupation. Now we have forcible entry by armed people in DC. This progression happened quickly. The common theme I identify is perversion of messaging. This is a tactic of international terrorist organizations for recruitment and motivation for execution of operations. And yet it's being done by the current president of the United States. Why then would you argue with me that its another salvo of an attempted coup? Edited January 8, 2021 by SwampD
SABRES 0311 Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, SwampD said: And yet it's being done by the current president of the United States. Why then would you argue with me that its another salvo of an attempted coup? What did I say?
SwampD Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: What did I say? Sorry. Wasn’t you. Forgot who I was talking to last night. 1
SABRES 0311 Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 1 minute ago, SwampD said: Sorry. Wasn’t you. Forgot who I was talking to last night. No worries.
drnkirishone Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 o look republican spin hard at work everyone. Everything is ok in Trumpville, tt was really ANTIFA provocateurs that did everything
Weave Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 8 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said: Their actions were pointless and resulted in nothing good. Totally disagree with the first half phrase. There is a point to it. The point is quite revolutionary. You should be concerned. You should not minimize this. This movement has the support of law enforcement. The coup they are attempting will spill blood. And it just may change a bunch of people in government because it does have backing. This is serious whether the initial attempts were substantial or not. This was always serious. And that is why you were getting so much flack previously. 1
LGR4GM Posted January 8, 2021 Author Report Posted January 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Weave said: Totally disagree with the first half phrase. There is a point to it. The point is quite revolutionary. You should be concerned. You should not minimize this. This movement has the support of law enforcement. The coup they are attempting will spill blood. And it just may change a bunch of people in government because it does have backing. This is serious whether the initial attempts were substantial or not. This was always serious. And that is why you were getting so much flack previously. I think this is a key component. This is not something to just dismiss when the people who swore oaths to protect the very halls of congress assisted in its taking. This was not some fringe event that occurred because of some escalation of the summer protests and a reaction to it. This has been stoked, fed, and watered by the words and actions of a craven wannabe dictator for four years and it has resulted in domestic terrorism. These people are already talking about coming back armed and in greater numbers on Jan 19 to be ready for the inauguration. They think they won the opening salvo of a battle. We cannot minimize this because that just allows this growing white nationalism to fester longer. This is as close as this country has ever come to being Germany in 1933 and that isn't some internet thing tossed out lightly to scare people, it is the truth. What if they started executed lawmakers? What if Trump used that to declare Martial Law? We walked to the brink and stared into the abyss and what we saw was that the United States has turned into a country of extremism. White nationalist terrorist seized our Capital for several hours, who knows what the national security implications are for that let alone the domestic terror it inflicted.
LGR4GM Posted January 8, 2021 Author Report Posted January 8, 2021 10 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said: If anyone had been taken hostage FBI HRT and DC SWAT would’ve come in. Even if they had taken control of the building and hostages they would not have been able to attain any goal of changing the outcome of the election. I’m not trying to downplay the the seriousness of their actions but there was no favorable outcome for the perpetrators to be had. Their actions were pointless and resulted in nothing good. They were not and you are trying to downplay something that has not occurred in the United States since 1814. The US Capital Building was taking over.
Curt Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said: If anyone had been taken hostage FBI HRT and DC SWAT would’ve come in. Even if they had taken control of the building and hostages they would not have been able to attain any goal of changing the outcome of the election. I’m not trying to downplay the the seriousness of their actions but there was no favorable outcome for the perpetrators to be had. Their actions were pointless and resulted in nothing good. Just to weigh in. I agree with you that this individual event on Wednesday really had no path to a productive result. However, it was one more unprecedented event in a string of progressively escalating events. That is extremely concerning, and dangerous. It’s not an event in a vacuum. And it was even worse than I originally thought. I was not originally aware the few who had plans to take hostages or those who planted bombs. I believe that the capital police should have done more. Really I feel that they should have opened fire, and know that I don’t say that flippantly. The lax attitude of the police in this case is very concerning on multiple levels. Edited January 8, 2021 by Curt
SABRES 0311 Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 Ok so I’ve tried offer my perspective on what happened, what has been happening and where I think this is going. This has resulted in accusation of downplaying things, being a murderer, and being a traitor to my country. Verbatim. I have rarely weighed-in when the talk is of things like economics because I think some of you are more well versed. On those type of topics I read more to learn from some of you. All of us have our own backgrounds and experiences which offer us a lens and perspective an issues. I’m not going into detail into my experiences on here until my time doing my job is done but I do feel they give me a perspective on what has been happening. If that experience based perspective is unwelcome then so be it. To anyone who thinks my comments have enabled events, downplayed them or is a betrayal of my country, you are certainly free to feel that way and to make those accusations. I one hundred percent agree all evil needs is for good men to do nothing. I have faith we will get through this. 2
LGR4GM Posted January 8, 2021 Author Report Posted January 8, 2021 49 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Ok so I’ve tried offer my perspective on what happened, what has been happening and where I think this is going. This has resulted in accusation of downplaying things, being a murderer, and being a traitor to my country. Verbatim. I have rarely weighed-in when the talk is of things like economics because I think some of you are more well versed. On those type of topics I read more to learn from some of you. All of us have our own backgrounds and experiences which offer us a lens and perspective an issues. I’m not going into detail into my experiences on here until my time doing my job is done but I do feel they give me a perspective on what has been happening. If that experience based perspective is unwelcome then so be it. To anyone who thinks my comments have enabled events, downplayed them or is a betrayal of my country, you are certainly free to feel that way and to make those accusations. I one hundred percent agree all evil needs is for good men to do nothing. I have faith we will get through this. You said "their actions were pointless". I think that is downplaying because their actions were not pointless. I stand by what I said but, and I know this wasn't directed at me, I do not think you are a murderer or a traitor.
SwampD Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 47 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Ok so I’ve tried offer my perspective on what happened, what has been happening and where I think this is going. This has resulted in accusation of downplaying things, being a murderer, and being a traitor to my country. Verbatim. I have rarely weighed-in when the talk is of things like economics because I think some of you are more well versed. On those type of topics I read more to learn from some of you. All of us have our own backgrounds and experiences which offer us a lens and perspective an issues. I’m not going into detail into my experiences on here until my time doing my job is done but I do feel they give me a perspective on what has been happening. If that experience based perspective is unwelcome then so be it. To anyone who thinks my comments have enabled events, downplayed them or is a betrayal of my country, you are certainly free to feel that way and to make those accusations. I one hundred percent agree all evil needs is for good men to do nothing. I have faith we will get through this. I find your input welcome. But you have to realize that you are a professional. Just like when someone else is floored by a crazy riff in a guitar solo and I say, yep, he play a 32nd note triplet Lydian scale over the IV chord. Looking at the situation analytically, to us, is downplaying it. Sorry, it just is. This is hugely emotional for us. There is no such thing as “acceptable loss” to the non-trained. If “getting through this” (which I, too, believe we will) means that even one more person dies, that is a huge freak out. It’s good that you have a so be it attitude. I get where you are coming from. Just wanted you to know where we are coming from.
SABRES 0311 Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) 42 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: You said "their actions were pointless". I think that is downplaying because their actions were not pointless. I stand by what I said but, and I know this wasn't directed at me, I do not think you are a murderer or a traitor. Pointless with respect to those people trying to do something good or show proof of a grievance. All they did was further a negative spiral. In the larger picture I agree totally this is a huge step down the wrong path. 41 minutes ago, SwampD said: I find your input welcome. But you have to realize that you are a professional. Just like when someone else is floored by a crazy riff in a guitar solo and I say, yep, he play a 32nd note triplet Lydian scale over the IV chord. Looking at the situation analytically, to us, is downplaying it. Sorry, it just is. This is hugely emotional for us. There is no such thing as “acceptable loss” to the non-trained. If “getting through this” (which I, too, believe we will) means that even one more person dies, that is a huge freak out. It’s good that you have a so be it attitude. I get where you are coming from. Just wanted you to know where we are coming from. Politicians have and will continue to convince people they are a victim of fellow citizens and that they, the politician, are the savior. Next comes militant branches of political parties. Those militant arms use violence and intimidation to further political objectives. At first elected officials keep their distance from these political arms. The militants gain support from the populace through the populace’s anger and fear. The politicians benefit from the divide as people look to them to stop the violence and promises of doing so. At some point you get politicians supporting the actions of the militants from behind the curtain. The goal is to disrupt society in order to decrease the civilian populace’s confidence in civil authority. Once that happens the politician offers the way out which includes blind obedience and institution of the politician’s form of policing. That policing is usually authoritarian. The populace accepts it out of fear, anger and apathy. The populace never catches on until it is too late because they were too busy calling each other the problem, the traitor, the murderer. They were too busy trying to show how those that don’t agree with them are the enemy to see what is happening. Eventually you are left with few people in control calling the shots. They themselves fight with each other dragging their people into more violence. Elements of the above are personified by Nazi Germany but better personified by Taliban control of Afghanistan. It continues in Afghanistan as militants bomb peace talks and political institutions. Disrupt, provide fear and an enemy, replace with authoritarianism. Or maybe I am wrong and this is not happening and is not going to happen. The common theme is a distracted populace. The only way to fix it is a populace who accepts it as not one sided, one dimensional problem. Edited January 8, 2021 by SABRES 0311 1
LTS Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 17 hours ago, Weave said: I understand the "let's see how the courts play out". But Sabel79 is absolutely correct. There was nothing sincere about the effort. Between the unproven claims in 2016 and the scorned-in-court claims in 2020 AND the simple fact that many of the states that went for Trump used the same machines, same early and mail in voting rules, and same late voting changes in response to a pandemic and not ONE individual that challenged the votes in MI, PA, GA, AZ, etc was interested in challenging the same machines, rules, and changes in the states that went for Trump. How sincere could the quest for justice really be when you are only seeking it on one side of the aisle? If you couldn't see the insincerity you weren't opening your eyes. And if you could see it and gave Trump the benefit of the doubt you were complicit. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Sincerity doesn't have much to do with it. They had the right to do it and they took advantage of that right. Accepting their right to file the lawsuits does not mean you give Trump the benefit of the doubt. To me it means I accept the rights afforded to Americans under the rules we have in place and that we should be stating that they are not within their rights or that we should constrain those rights. Good men don't take away the rights of others because they do not agree with them. Those rules might need to be changed, but at the time, those are the rules. 14 hours ago, SwampD said: Not this single act, obviously, but if more “successful”, it may have inspired more acts of violence maybe at a local level. 100%. This is why Congress needs to act against Trump even if there's no chance of the action succeeding before he's out of office. They need to send a clear and strong position that actions like this are not tolerated and have serious consequences. This is both for the citizens of this country as well as sending messages to those in other countries who are laughing their ***** off at us. 26 minutes ago, SwampD said: I find your input welcome. But you have to realize that you are a professional. Just like when someone else is floored by a crazy riff in a guitar solo and I say, yep, he play a 32nd note triplet Lydian scale over the IV chord. Looking at the situation analytically, to us, is downplaying it. Sorry, it just is. This is hugely emotional for us. There is no such thing as “acceptable loss” to the non-trained. If “getting through this” (which I, too, believe we will) means that even one more person dies, that is a huge freak out. It’s good that you have a so be it attitude. I get where you are coming from. Just wanted you to know where we are coming from. I love this response. This is a great example of how we can talk to each other and guide each other to understanding. 1
SABRES 0311 Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, SwampD said: I’m hoping you mean “it as not”. Fixed. I think it’s the same meaning, different verbiage. It is not a one sided problem. It is not a one dimensional problem. Edited January 8, 2021 by SABRES 0311 1
SwampD Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Fixed. I think it’s the same meaning, different verbiage. It is not a one sided problem. It is not a one dimensional problem. Yep. Same meaning. I got it and deleted my post. 1
Weave Posted January 8, 2021 Report Posted January 8, 2021 1 hour ago, LTS said: Sincerity doesn't have much to do with it. They had the right to do it and they took advantage of that right. Accepting their right to file the lawsuits does not mean you give Trump the benefit of the doubt. To me it means I accept the rights afforded to Americans under the rules we have in place and that we should be stating that they are not within their rights or that we should constrain those rights. I didn't comment on whether the court cases should have been heard. Yes, I agree, Donald had a right to file a grievance, to have his day in court. And the courts did what was expected of them. Sincerity matters, however, in our leaders messages regarding those court cases. They all knew it was bull *****, but whipped up the masses anyway. It was our leaderships responses to court cases they knew to be long shots based on slim technicalities with no evidence that put us here today. Sure, let him have his day in court, but recognize and acknowledge that the cases were without any real legs.
LGR4GM Posted January 8, 2021 Author Report Posted January 8, 2021 Reports that DoD and the Pentagon deliberately handicapped the national guard in DC prior to the attempted coup by refusing to give them riot gear and by refusing for several hours to deploy the remaining guard or call for assistance from other states.
LGR4GM Posted January 8, 2021 Author Report Posted January 8, 2021 Also there are multiple videos of either DC or Capital police opening up barricades or motioning rioters through/in. https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1347615998610911234 Here are other Capital Police attempting to keep insurrectionists out.
LGR4GM Posted January 8, 2021 Author Report Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, SABRES 0311 said: Pointless with respect to those people trying to do something good or show proof of a grievance. All they did was further a negative spiral. In the larger picture I agree totally this is a huge step down the wrong path. Those people were rioters in open insurrection against the US Government trying to take Congress hostage in an attempted coup. Why yes, an attempted coup egged on by the sitting President is a huge step down the wrong path. Everyone one of those rioters should be prosecuted for insurrection. Edited January 8, 2021 by LGR4GM
Eleven Posted January 9, 2021 Report Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) I don't really care if he's impeached or not. It's silly at this point. I'm content if he can't start something that makes the Earth burn. Pelosi says she has that promise from DOD, but I frankly think she's about as trustworthy as Trump--just a lot less insane. Edited January 9, 2021 by Eleven
drnkirishone Posted January 9, 2021 Report Posted January 9, 2021 Anyone want to place bets on the biggest punishment that the insurrectionist politicians face will be banishment from some social media? Fyi Frump, Flynn, and Powell just got permanent bans on twitter
LTS Posted January 9, 2021 Report Posted January 9, 2021 19 hours ago, Weave said: I didn't comment on whether the court cases should have been heard. Yes, I agree, Donald had a right to file a grievance, to have his day in court. And the courts did what was expected of them. Sincerity matters, however, in our leaders messages regarding those court cases. They all knew it was bull *****, but whipped up the masses anyway. It was our leaderships responses to court cases they knew to be long shots based on slim technicalities with no evidence that put us here today. Sure, let him have his day in court, but recognize and acknowledge that the cases were without any real legs. He can't acknowledge that any more than a GM can acknowledge he's about to fire a coach. Sure one is the international stage of politics and effects the leadership of our country but fundamentally its the same thing. If you are trying to win at something you can't come out and says "It's really just a joke and I don't expect to win." 10 hours ago, Eleven said: I don't really care if he's impeached or not. It's silly at this point. I'm content if he can't start something that makes the Earth burn. Pelosi says she has that promise from DOD, but I frankly think she's about as trustworthy as Trump--just a lot less insane. I care. The message has to be sent that these actions are not tolerable, at any point. 8 hours ago, drnkirishone said: Anyone want to place bets on the biggest punishment that the insurrectionist politicians face will be banishment from some social media? Fyi Frump, Flynn, and Powell just got permanent bans on twitter Yeah.. and Trump was back in a few minutes posting as POTUS on Twitter. Won't amount to much. Real action is required and unfortunately I do not have faith that politicians will rise up to make it happen. Ultimately politicians cower away from taking meaningful action. Politicians by and large lack any real leadership capability and are more a group of compromisers and manipulators. Its a rare politician that can truly lead and make those tough decisions that serve the country and not themselves.
Curt Posted January 9, 2021 Report Posted January 9, 2021 13 minutes ago, LTS said: I care. The message has to be sent that these actions are not tolerable, at any point. I agree. Even if it’s so that Trump goes down in history as the only President twice impeached (at least I think that’s true). There needs to be some action taken in response to this treasonous behavior. It’s disappointing enough that nothing is going to happen for at least a week, it looks like.
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