Eleven Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Simply acknowledging reality and a possible outcome is not wrong. It is wrong. It is encouraging him in his refusal to engage in an orderly transfer of power. 70 million + voted for him, and the vast, VAST majority of them are not "pretty sure" that he lost. They're just plain sure.
Curt Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 And some people think that there is a panic about Covid. Geesh, you guys are jumpy as heck. There was an election. They counted the votes. Biden got more votes. But the election isn’t over until the electoral votes are cast early in December. The guy in the White House is disputing the way that some votes were counted, but it seems extremely unlikely that this will alter the result. If there isn’t any reason to alter the current vote counts before the electoral votes are cast, appears extremely likely, then Joe Biden will be the 46th President of the US. Is this a set of facts that everyone can agree upon?
LGR4GM Posted November 18, 2020 Author Report Posted November 18, 2020 56 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: I don’t know how to make what I am saying any more clear. I have not taken a position for or against the election dispute. I have simply acknowledged it is happening. Biden won and it is being disputed. That dispute means this may take longer than normal. It’s extremely unlikely the results are overturned but right or wrong it could happen. Hey another post where you offer nothing. This is my issue. It won't happen because Trump did not win. You can't overturn votes in those types of numbers unless you cheat.
SABRES 0311 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Curt said: And some people think that there is a panic about Covid. Geesh, you guys are jumpy as heck. There was an election. They counted the votes. Biden got more votes. But the election isn’t over until the electoral votes are cast early in December. The guy in the White House is disputing the way that some votes were counted, but it seems extremely unlikely that this will alter the result. If there isn’t any reason to alter the current vote counts before the electoral votes are cast, appears extremely likely, then Joe Biden will be the 46th President of the US. Is this a set of facts that everyone can agree upon? This is what I am saying.
Curt Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 Just now, LGR4GM said: This is my issue. It won't happen because Trump did not win. You can't overturn votes in those types of numbers unless you cheat. Who is ruling out the possibility that the current administration cheats??? Its literally not over until the electoral votes are cast.
LGR4GM Posted November 18, 2020 Author Report Posted November 18, 2020 18 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Harming America? Get a grip. All I did was acknowledge the fact the election results are in dispute by Trump and that it’s delaying the process. With any dispute the final outcome is to be determined until the dispute is over. Never did I say I agree with the dispute or perpetuate the claimed basis of the dispute. Biden has more votes. I don’t see the current results being overturned. That doesn’t mean we bury our heads and pretend that something crazy couldn’t happen. I can’t tell if you guys are screwing with me or seriously believe I am pushing something I’m not. No they are not in dispute. Everyone who isn't personally invested in the outcome (Trump and his fans) has acknowledged the election results as being legit. Trump is disputing them because he knows he lost and he is a textbook narcissist. Trump disputing the results and the results actually being in dispute are not the same thing. If I tell you that Jack Quinn is the best Sabre ever and you say no he isn't, I am disputing that but my statement isn't actually in dispute, it is simply not true. 12 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: And I’ve said that I don’t think it gets overturned. Simply acknowledging reality and a possible outcome is not wrong. Accusing people of doing something they did not do because you refuse to understand what they are saying is wrong. How do you overturn a legal election with almost no fraud?
LGR4GM Posted November 18, 2020 Author Report Posted November 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Curt said: Who is ruling out the possibility that the current administration cheats??? Its literally not over until the electoral votes are cast. They are trying to cheat but that doesn't make the results disputed. Reality shows that Trump lost and lost big. He can dispute the results all he wants but that doesn't make the results disputed. Disputed results are what we saw in Florida in 2000 when there was 500 votes that swung an election. Hell even in Georgia we would need 10k votes swung and then another 150k in Pennsylvania, and then several thousand in Arizona. And then I think we could have a disputed result but that WILL. NOT. HAPPEN. Why? Because there was no fraud and Trump is in denial.
Curt Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 1 minute ago, LGR4GM said: They are trying to cheat but that doesn't make the results disputed. Reality shows that Trump lost and lost big. He can dispute the results all he wants but that doesn't make the results disputed. Disputed results are what we saw in Florida in 2000 when there was 500 votes that swung an election. Hell even in Georgia we would need 10k votes swung and then another 150k in Pennsylvania, and then several thousand in Arizona. And then I think we could have a disputed result but that WILL. NOT. HAPPEN. Why? Because there was no fraud and Trump is in denial. Trump is disputing the results. The results are being disputed. The results are in dispute. The differences are in semantics. Just because there is a dispute, doesn’t mean that one side can’t be flat out in the wrong.
LGR4GM Posted November 18, 2020 Author Report Posted November 18, 2020 Just now, Curt said: Trump is disputing the results. The results are being disputed. The results are in dispute. The differences are in semantics. Just because there is a dispute, doesn’t mean that one side can’t be flat out in the wrong. The results being in dispute suggests there is a problem with the results. There is no problem and Joe Biden is the president elect. The only problem with the results for Trump is he lost and is a narcissist who can't mentally handle it.
LGR4GM Posted November 18, 2020 Author Report Posted November 18, 2020 Sabres 0311 I have no problem with you and want you to know that. My issue is with the hint that the election isn't over and that somehow Trump could end up the winner, he can't and he won't. Biden won the election.
SABRES 0311 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 1 minute ago, LGR4GM said: Sabres 0311 I have no problem with you and want you to know that. My issue is with the hint that the election isn't over and that somehow Trump could end up the winner, he can't and he won't. Biden won the election. Appreciate that. I’m saying the same thing @Curtis. I don’t think a sane person really thinks it gets overturned. I’m not sure Trump believes it gets overturned. But the fact is one side is disputing the legitimacy of the vote. Right or wrong it is a dispute.
LGR4GM Posted November 18, 2020 Author Report Posted November 18, 2020 17 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Appreciate that. I’m saying the same thing @Curtis. I don’t think a sane person really thinks it gets overturned. I’m not sure Trump believes it gets overturned. But the fact is one side is disputing the legitimacy of the vote. Right or wrong it is a dispute. I just want to leave this. It is a reason I responded to you and have been heavily critical of the semantics.
SwampD Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 41 minutes ago, Curt said: Trump is disputing the results. The results are being disputed. The results are in dispute. The differences are in semantics. Just because there is a dispute, doesn’t mean that one side can’t be flat out in the wrong. The problem I have with all of this is I truly believe that Trump doesn’t dispute the results. I think that he sees claiming fraud as his only path to remaining in office,... and that is disgusting (to use one of favorite words.)
Curt Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 11 minutes ago, SwampD said: The problem I have with all of this is I truly believe that Trump doesn’t dispute the results. I think that he sees claiming fraud as his only path to remaining in office,... and that is disgusting (to use one of favorite words.) Whether it’s with genuine or nefarious intent, Trump is disputing the election. As for “all of this”, yeah, personally, I have a lot of problems with how things have been done.
LTS Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 1 hour ago, SwampD said: It's a very nice straw man you have created. Yes Trump is disputing the election, but it is not a disputed election. Your statement is in direct contradiction to your position. The very fact that Trump is disputing the election makes it a disputed election. 1 hour ago, Eleven said: It is wrong. It is encouraging him in his refusal to engage in an orderly transfer of power. 70 million + voted for him, and the vast, VAST majority of them are not "pretty sure" that he lost. They're just plain sure. It's not wrong. Sorry, but allowing for possibilities regardless of probabilities is not wrong. Think of a door closing.. there's a point where people may consider the door closed before it is, in fact, closed. At this point, the election is not closed. As such, there are possibilities of things that can happen. 1 hour ago, Curt said: Who is ruling out the possibility that the current administration cheats??? Its literally not over until the electoral votes are cast. 100% this. And this is why I am thankful the Supreme Court killed the "faithless electorate" over the summer. That was one of my concerns. That electorates ignored the state mandate and voted for one candidate or another. 1 hour ago, LGR4GM said: No they are not in dispute. Everyone who isn't personally invested in the outcome (Trump and his fans) has acknowledged the election results as being legit. Trump is disputing them because he knows he lost and he is a textbook narcissist. Trump disputing the results and the results actually being in dispute are not the same thing. If I tell you that Jack Quinn is the best Sabre ever and you say no he isn't, I am disputing that but my statement isn't actually in dispute, it is simply not true. How do you overturn a legal election with almost no fraud? How do you define dispute? If he is filing motions then it is in dispute. The outcome could be plainly obvious but that does not change that it's happening. Someone can file a frivolous lawsuit, just because its outcome is all but assured it doesn't mean the lawsuit does not exist. 59 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Sabres 0311 I have no problem with you and want you to know that. My issue is with the hint that the election isn't over and that somehow Trump could end up the winner, he can't and he won't. Biden won the election. Biden has not won the election. The process used within this country dictates that. Yes, I am in agreement that Biden will almost assuredly win... but it is not official. --------------- People are emotional over Trump and they want him to go away. I understand that. I do too. But when we choose to let our emotions overtake the facts we are falling victim to similar issues that plague the current President. The facts are: votes are not certified, electorates have not voted and because of that, Biden has not won. Improbable things happen all the time... as Buffalo sports fans we should be very familiar with the concept. When it's official.. it's official.
SwampD Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 41 minutes ago, LTS said: Your statement is in direct contradiction to your position. The very fact that Trump is disputing the election makes it a disputed election. It's not wrong. Sorry, but allowing for possibilities regardless of probabilities is not wrong. Think of a door closing.. there's a point where people may consider the door closed before it is, in fact, closed. At this point, the election is not closed. As such, there are possibilities of things that can happen. 100% this. And this is why I am thankful the Supreme Court killed the "faithless electorate" over the summer. That was one of my concerns. That electorates ignored the state mandate and voted for one candidate or another. How do you define dispute? If he is filing motions then it is in dispute. The outcome could be plainly obvious but that does not change that it's happening. Someone can file a frivolous lawsuit, just because its outcome is all but assured it doesn't mean the lawsuit does not exist. Biden has not won the election. The process used within this country dictates that. Yes, I am in agreement that Biden will almost assuredly win... but it is not official. --------------- People are emotional over Trump and they want him to go away. I understand that. I do too. But when we choose to let our emotions overtake the facts we are falling victim to similar issues that plague the current President. The facts are: votes are not certified, electorates have not voted and because of that, Biden has not won. Improbable things happen all the time... as Buffalo sports fans we should be very familiar with the concept. When it's official.. it's official. I guess I have a problem with the term disputed. I don’t think it is a disputed election. I think I would go with obfuscate, instead. Trump is trying to obfuscate the election.
Eleven Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 1 hour ago, LTS said: It's not wrong. Sorry, but allowing for possibilities regardless of probabilities is not wrong. Think of a door closing.. there's a point where people may consider the door closed before it is, in fact, closed. At this point, the election is not closed. As such, there are possibilities of things that can happen. It is wrong. It is *absolutely* wrong to foment doubt over the propriety of this election, even under the guise of some possibility that is so remote that it is unthinkable. It's more likely that Joe Biden will die of natural causes prior to Jan. 20th than it is that the results will be overturned because of some sort of election impropriety, but I doubt that's why 0311 is only "pretty sure" Biden will be inaugurated. And it is harmful. Because people who say they are "pretty sure" Trump lost enable his Quixoticity, we are not having the orderly transition that we need. We're in the middle of a pandemic. People are going to die because of Trump's willful neglect, and I have no problem assigning some level of responsibility for that to the people who embolden him.
SABRES 0311 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, Eleven said: It is wrong. It is *absolutely* wrong to foment doubt over the propriety of this election, even under the guise of some possibility that is so remote that it is unthinkable. It's more likely that Joe Biden will die of natural causes prior to Jan. 20th than it is that the results will be overturned because of some sort of election impropriety, but I doubt that's why 0311 is only "pretty sure" Biden will be inaugurated. And it is harmful. Because people who say they are "pretty sure" Trump lost enable his Quixoticity, we are not having the orderly transition that we need. We're in the middle of a pandemic. People are going to die because of Trump's willful neglect, and I have no problem assigning some level of responsibility for that to the people who embolden him. As usual your assessment on me is wrong.
Eleven Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: As usual your assessment on me is wrong. So, then, to what were you referring?
SABRES 0311 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 48 minutes ago, Eleven said: So, then, to what were you referring? The reason I’m pretty sure Biden won and why I’m saying the results are in dispute. You seem to think it makes me a part of the problem in this country. I think I’ve done a decent job explaining what I mean. I didn’t see you call anyone else that said it’s in dispute as a part of the problem.
Eleven Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 1 hour ago, SABRES 0311 said: The reason I’m pretty sure Biden won and why I’m saying the results are in dispute. You seem to think it makes me a part of the problem in this country. I think I’ve done a decent job explaining what I mean. I didn’t see you call anyone else that said it’s in dispute as a part of the problem. Nice non-answer. So you were referring to the fraud hypothesis and can't come up with anything else. As suspected. And I did assess you correctly, didn't I? The reason I'm not calling anyone else part of the problem is that no one else is positing that there's a genuine dispute, except possibly LTS, to whom I replied.
Eleven Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 2 hours ago, SwampD said: I guess I have a problem with the term disputed. I don’t think it is a disputed election. I think I would go with obfuscate, instead. Trump is trying to obfuscate the election. This is perfect. "Disputing" the election is like "disputing" that the Earth is round.
SABRES 0311 Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 21 minutes ago, Eleven said: Nice non-answer. So you were referring to the fraud hypothesis and can't come up with anything else. As suspected. And I did assess you correctly, didn't I? The reason I'm not calling anyone else part of the problem is that no one else is positing that there's a genuine dispute, except possibly LTS, to whom I replied. Nope you are wrong. As usual. Deal with it. Move on. Again I never supported the idea of disputing the election. I only said that a dispute exists. Read that again. Now go back, read it again slowly. Take a day, think about and read it again.
Eleven Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Nope you are wrong. As usual. Deal with it. Move on. Again I never supported the idea of disputing the election. I only said that a dispute exists. Read that again. Now go back, read it again slowly. Take a day, think about and read it again. I'm "pretty sure" I don't need to.
Curt Posted November 18, 2020 Report Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Eleven said: Nice non-answer. So you were referring to the fraud hypothesis and can't come up with anything else. As suspected. And I did assess you correctly, didn't I? The reason I'm not calling anyone else part of the problem is that no one else is positing that there's a genuine dispute, except possibly LTS, to whom I replied. There is a genuine dispute. Trump has started a dispute. In fact he started disputing the election before it even occurred. But it doesn’t appear to have any discernible merit. You are getting way too hung up on that word. The fact that Trump is disputing the election doesn’t mean that he has a good case, just that he is arguing about it. Dispute /diˈspyo͞ot/ noun a disagreement, argument, or debate. verb 1. argue about (something); discuss heatedly. 2. compete for; strive to win. Edited November 18, 2020 by Curt
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