SABRES 0311 Posted October 28, 2019 Report Posted October 28, 2019 23 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Playing a part and being the cause are not the same. Trump didn't have some master plan to flush this guy out and even if he did it was a shockingly terrible plan. You are spinning this to try and make Trump look good. Let's apply Occam's razor, Trump decided to leave because Erdogan convinced him too (probably because Trump doesn't want the US in Syria, undoubtedly his Russian ties and his own belief he is the smartest person in the room played in). Because the US was leaving, Baghdadi poked his head up to sniff the air, the US intelligence apparatus received enough additional intel (they had 5 months of intel from the Kurds) to finally act. There was not an overarching plan, just by coincidence 3 weeks after the US withdrawal they got enough intel to move on. This explanation is far more likely than Trump thinking he could sacrifice several hundred Kurds, allow at least 100 ISIS prisoners to escape, all in the hope that 1 guy might feel slightly safer and poke is head out. And again if the plan was to withdraw US troops, sacrifice the Kurds to the Turkish genocide, help Russia exert more influence on the area, and allow 100 ISIS prisoners to escape all to get 1 guy... then to quote Tony Stark, How am I spinning it to make him look good? I never even said it was his plan. In fact I hope no president puts their hands into that cookie jar because they don’t have the experience. The military has people who develop the scheme of maneuver. Commanders pitch the course of action to the guy who says yes or no. All Trump did was say yes. Maybe, just maybe we received info where this guy was. Then multiple plans were built taking into account host nation and other factors. Maybe somebody with experience said we should make the operational environment look safer for the bad guy. At the same time said planner thought the bad guy might try to escape so we need to block him in without contradicting other planning considerations. I guess we will have to wait until the movie comes out.
LGR4GM Posted October 28, 2019 Author Report Posted October 28, 2019 1 hour ago, SABRES 0311 said: How am I spinning it to make him look good? I never even said it was his plan. In fact I hope no president puts their hands into that cookie jar because they don’t have the experience. The military has people who develop the scheme of maneuver. Commanders pitch the course of action to the guy who says yes or no. All Trump did was say yes. Maybe, just maybe we received info where this guy was. Then multiple plans were built taking into account host nation and other factors. Maybe somebody with experience said we should make the operational environment look safer for the bad guy. At the same time said planner thought the bad guy might try to escape so we need to block him in without contradicting other planning considerations. I guess we will have to wait until the movie comes out. This goes against basically every single report that we have seen in the last 3 weeks. The entire military was like "this is a terrible idea". Again, President would have had to green light this plan and I don't believe for a second that is how things went down. He made a rash, not thought out, snap decision and then consequences ensued. We don't even have proof Baghdadi stuck his head because of the US withdrawal.
SABRES 0311 Posted October 29, 2019 Report Posted October 29, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, LGR4GM said: This goes against basically every single report that we have seen in the last 3 weeks. The entire military was like "this is a terrible idea". Again, President would have had to green light this plan and I don't believe for a second that is how things went down. He made a rash, not thought out, snap decision and then consequences ensued. We don't even have proof Baghdadi stuck his head because of the US withdrawal. Then I guess the timing is a coincidence. ? Like I said we’ll have to wait for the movie. Edited October 29, 2019 by SABRES 0311
SABRES 0311 Posted October 29, 2019 Report Posted October 29, 2019 Trump claims Baghdadi’s next in line is dead. ISIS members may want to reach out their HR department and request transfer. No idea if it was planned or if this happened as a result of the Baghdadi raid.
LGR4GM Posted October 29, 2019 Author Report Posted October 29, 2019 (edited) Any comment on this, The "never trumper witness" he is referring to is Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman. Vindman served multiple tours and was wounded in Iraq. Trump as well as several of his sycophants are now suggesting that Vindman is not credible in part because he was born in Ukraine and left for the US when he was 3 years old. They are openly questioning his patriotism. I mean... what the actual *****? Edited October 29, 2019 by LGR4GM
drnkirishone Posted October 29, 2019 Report Posted October 29, 2019 I would like to comment. The man treats the office like he is the head of the mafia, so it is unsurprising that he would attack a former soldier if said soldier would dare to question him
SABRES 0311 Posted October 29, 2019 Report Posted October 29, 2019 Vindman’s job if I had to guess is as a liaison so yeah talking to Ukrainians would be normal. The guy on the Fox portion of the video should probably look up the definition of espionage. The CNN anchor takes the wind out of her own sails. She uses Duffy’s participation in MTV shows to discredit him. Yeah I’d pick something that matters, not lame MTV. Duffy doesn’t give anything substantive by eluding to Vindman’s former nationality. He conveniently leaves out the fact he left Ukraine when he was three. His point is invalid. Ingraham is useless. In summary I think both CNN and Fox are too busy attacking each other, each other’s guests, and insert too many opinions in place of information of value. Therefore I’ll play the waiting game too see what happens.
LGR4GM Posted October 30, 2019 Author Report Posted October 30, 2019 19 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said: Vindman’s job if I had to guess is as a liaison so yeah talking to Ukrainians would be normal. The guy on the Fox portion of the video should probably look up the definition of espionage. The CNN anchor takes the wind out of her own sails. She uses Duffy’s participation in MTV shows to discredit him. Yeah I’d pick something that matters, not lame MTV. Duffy doesn’t give anything substantive by eluding to Vindman’s former nationality. He conveniently leaves out the fact he left Ukraine when he was three. His point is invalid. Ingraham is useless. In summary I think both CNN and Fox are too busy attacking each other, each other’s guests, and insert too many opinions in place of information of value. Therefore I’ll play the waiting game too see what happens. So are you comfortable with an organized smear campaign against a Military Veteran. Either Vindman or Taylor fit this question.
SABRES 0311 Posted October 30, 2019 Report Posted October 30, 2019 19 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: So are you comfortable with an organized smear campaign against a Military Veteran. Either Vindman or Taylor fit this question. By smear campaign I assume you mean lying about someone to discredit their testimony. If so I am against doing it to anyone. Current or prior service is irrelevant because servicemen are still human and capable of mistakes like anyone else. Recent examples are Gen Patreus and supposedly Gen Flynn. I say supposedly because I guess there is some question about FBI 302 reports.
LGR4GM Posted November 1, 2019 Author Report Posted November 1, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 12:33 PM, SABRES 0311 said: By smear campaign I assume you mean lying about someone to discredit their testimony. If so I am against doing it to anyone. Current or prior service is irrelevant because servicemen are still human and capable of mistakes like anyone else. Recent examples are Gen Patreus and supposedly Gen Flynn. I say supposedly because I guess there is some question about FBI 302 reports. Yea, smear campaign like the one suggesting that Vindman is a traitor to the United States because he immigrated from Ukraine when he was 3.
SABRES 0311 Posted November 1, 2019 Report Posted November 1, 2019 6 hours ago, LGR4GM said: Yea, smear campaign like the one suggesting that Vindman is a traitor to the United States because he immigrated from Ukraine when he was 3. Yeah suggesting he is a traitor because of where he was born makes no sense. Or I should say it makes as much sense as equating the validity of his testimony to his military service. In both cases one does not determine the other.
SABRES 0311 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Posted November 4, 2019 (edited) This is funny and I know some of you will laugh. Honestly you could do this with any random person and it would be funny. Edited November 4, 2019 by SABRES 0311 1
SwampD Posted November 5, 2019 Report Posted November 5, 2019 3 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said: This is funny and I know some of you will laugh. Honestly you could do this with any random person and it would be funny. That’s funny.
LGR4GM Posted November 5, 2019 Author Report Posted November 5, 2019 It's pretty funny. I read something the other day that I think applies to what is going on. You argue process when you can't argue facts. We have seen that a lot lately.
Eleven Posted November 5, 2019 Report Posted November 5, 2019 2 hours ago, LGR4GM said: It's pretty funny. I read something the other day that I think applies to what is going on. You argue process when you can't argue facts. We have seen that a lot lately. “If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.” --Carl Sandburg It is the last sentence that applies to this travesty of a presidency.
drnkirishone Posted November 5, 2019 Report Posted November 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Eleven said: “If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.” --Carl Sandburg It is the last sentence that applies to this travesty of a presidency. Government, travesty of a government, because you know the Senate will fail to remove.
Eleven Posted November 5, 2019 Report Posted November 5, 2019 3 hours ago, drnkirishone said: Government, travesty of a government, because you know the Senate will fail to remove. The Senate will do what a majority (and they would need 2/3) Senate in unity with the President normally does; it will not convict. Cf. 1998. But that is not the travesty. The travesty--the absurd and distorted thing--is the president. If McConnell refuses to bring it to the floor--as he has done with quite a few bills, because he is cowardly, well, that might be another travesty, and might also be a Constitutional crisis.
Weave Posted November 5, 2019 Report Posted November 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Eleven said: The Senate will do what a majority (and they would need 2/3) Senate in unity with the President normally does; it will not convict. Cf. 1998. But that is not the travesty. The travesty--the absurd and distorted thing--is the president. If McConnell refuses to bring it to the floor--as he has done with quite a few bills, because he is cowardly, well, that might be another travesty, and might also be a Constitutional crisis. It already feels like a Constitutional crisis. We've got Executive Branch employees ignoring Congressional subpoenas. Has that ever happened before? And if so, did the Justice Dept. stand pat and let it happen? Speaking of Justice Department, it's time to get it out from the Executive Branch and make it a wholly independent body. What is happening today in Justice is disturbing.
Eleven Posted November 5, 2019 Report Posted November 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, Weave said: We've got Executive Branch employees ignoring Congressional subpoenas. Has that ever happened before? And if so, did the Justice Dept. stand pat and let it happen? I don't know if it's happened before, but shouldn't the House Sgt at Arms be doing something about it to show that Congress is serious? As for the second part, no no no way. Three branches is enough, and I don't want the Justice Dept. belonging to either of the other two.
SABRES 0311 Posted November 5, 2019 Report Posted November 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, Weave said: It already feels like a Constitutional crisis. We've got Executive Branch employees ignoring Congressional subpoenas. Has that ever happened before? And if so, did the Justice Dept. stand pat and let it happen? Speaking of Justice Department, it's time to get it out from the Executive Branch and make it a wholly independent body. What is happening today in Justice is disturbing. Lois Lerner and the IRS scandal Fast and Furious NSA spying on Americans Torturing detainees Whatever problems we have today have roots in lack of accountability of past administrations. Someday we will move past left vs right but until then it’s wash, rinse, repeat.
Weave Posted November 6, 2019 Report Posted November 6, 2019 38 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: Lois Lerner and the IRS scandal Fast and Furious NSA spying on Americans Torturing detainees Whatever problems we have today have roots in lack of accountability of past administrations. Someday we will move past left vs right but until then it’s wash, rinse, repeat. Lerner appeared before Congress and invoked the 5th amendment. Invoking the 5th in front of Congress isn't really equivalent to choosing to ignore the subpoena to show up. Holder testified before Congress 7 times over Fast and Furious before ultimately being held in Contempt of Congress. Not familiar with the ignoring of subpoenas over the NSA spying scandal. Or Guantanamo. And LOL at continuing to point to some other actions by someone else instead of holding folks here and now to some standard.
Weave Posted November 6, 2019 Report Posted November 6, 2019 56 minutes ago, Eleven said: I don't know if it's happened before, but shouldn't the House Sgt at Arms be doing something about it to show that Congress is serious? As for the second part, no no no way. Three branches is enough, and I don't want the Justice Dept. belonging to either of the other two. I'm not thinking a 3rd branch. Maybe a combination of Executive and Legislative to appoint the head of Justice so Justice is more independent. What we have now is a head of Justice that is beholden to Trump and therefore unwilling to act against him. I miss the days when Washington was afraid of the FBI.
SABRES 0311 Posted November 6, 2019 Report Posted November 6, 2019 13 minutes ago, Weave said: Lerner appeared before Congress and invoked the 5th amendment. Invoking the 5th in front of Congress isn't really equivalent to choosing to ignore the subpoena to show up. Holder testified before Congress 7 times over Fast and Furious before ultimately being held in Contempt of Congress. Not familiar with the ignoring of subpoenas over the NSA spying scandal. Or Guantanamo. And LOL at continuing to point to some other actions by someone else instead of holding folks here and now to some standard. I think you are missing my point. The actions of past administrations don’t excuse the actions of the current administration. The point I am trying to make is whatever crimes the Trump administration may have committed are not the fault of others but the audacity stems from lack of accountability in the past. If you would like a specific example I can talk about Iraq, Syria Al Qaeda/ISIS. Either way I’m just looking at it through a different lens that isn’t just orange man bad.
Weave Posted November 6, 2019 Report Posted November 6, 2019 17 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said: I think you are missing my point. The actions of past administrations don’t excuse the actions of the current administration. The point I am trying to make is whatever crimes the Trump administration may have committed are not the fault of others but the audacity stems from lack of accountability in the past. If you would like a specific example I can talk about Iraq, Syria Al Qaeda/ISIS. Either way I’m just looking at it through a different lens that isn’t just orange man bad. The audacity has been unprecedented over the last 3 years. If there is a measuring stick, it is measuring on a logarithmic scale. This is so far beyond what "is" is, or phantom WMD's.
SABRES 0311 Posted November 6, 2019 Report Posted November 6, 2019 5 minutes ago, Weave said: The audacity has been unprecedented over the last 3 years. If there is a measuring stick, it is measuring on a logarithmic scale. This is so far beyond what "is" is, or phantom WMD's. And guess what? When a Democrat is in office a conservative will say they are destroying America. BTW those phantom WMDs resulted in many families losing loved ones. I doubt that changes your perspective but hopefully you understand people see things in a different light. Since you brought up standards why do you ignore and minimize what others have done as though it has no impact on what is happening now? I don’t mean with a single phone call to Ukraine either.
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