Weave Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 1 hour ago, SABRES 0311 said: Wow no winning with you. I offer to go with no wall unless it’s proven other methods don’t work. I also said both sides argue over what the data says. I never said which I agree with. While I do not claim I have the perfect answer I only offer one of likely many paths. In fact I would like a solution that is other than a wall. But if it’s proven that all other means do not work without it then we go from there. You read into it something that wasn’t there. The point was simple. We don’t need to see what might work. The data is showing that what we are doing now is already working, regardless of the state propaganda being spewed.
Scottysabres Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 5 hours ago, LTS said: Help me out. The article you quote is not entirely clear on what numbers in each section are duplicated and which are not. It seems the last number in the article, 1,138 convictions of homicide is the most inclusive. However, this data does not delineate on the victim of the crime does it? As such, the victim could be another person who illegally entered the country, right? See above. Could not an argument be made that those who support less restrictive gun ownership laws also then support those who would use such weapons to commit murder? Certainly not all gun owners commit crimes, but then not all illegal immigrants commit crimes either do they? If we ask the families of victims of gun violence would we not expect similar responses? See above. The right to gun ownership and defending that policy would fall into what you have stated. Please support your claim of Democrats celebrating murder. Also, the crime numbers as I pointed out above do not appear to delineate on illegal immigrants killing each other and they certainly do not delineate the victims based on race. Your use of race here is immaterial to the point you are trying to make, you even say so, but yet you use it and you choose to use violence against Caucausians when as far as you know, they could have been the least impacted race in the statistics provided. A wall may limit the number of illegals entering the country, but it won't eliminate it. Just as gun laws may limit the number of gun deaths, but it won't prevent them. Do you support more restrictive gun ownership laws? Because even legal gun owners do really stupid things like this event that happened while I was in Arkansas last week: https://www.foxnews.com/us/arkansas-men-shoot-at-each-other-while-wearing-bulletproof-vests-police With regards to the numbers that were actual citizens, we would need a correlation. I will look that up to see if it is available. As for less restrictive gun rules, your barking up the wrong tree here when it comes to myself at least. I am a proponent of states regulating their own fire arms laws. Including AR-15's, bump stocks and so on. I am not against that at all, as a matter 9f my beliefs based on the writings of Madison, Hamilton and Jay in Federalist Essays 10, 51 and 76 it is reasonable for states to assert their laws at that level, as long as it does not hinder the rights of citizens to defend themselves from over reach in governance. There is no reason the Federal government should be allowed to usurp the 2nd amendment however. Bare in mind, as a Libertarian, I am all in on the ideals of small federal governance. However, with that being said, if, as you point out, there could be correlation between the 2 issues, gun rights and immigration, you fail to point out the most obvious of differences, one is imported, one is domestic. So, with that being said, do you feel the need to heighten the number of casualties by importing more? While trying to wrestle with the domestic issues? While we are at it, lets look at automobile deaths, industrial accident deaths, kitchen knives deaths and most assuredly deaths directly linked to water sports, boating/jet ski's/bungi jumping/recreational drug use both alcohol and non alcohol related. We wrestle with these issues every single day, internally, as citizens. There is 0 reasons to import that which can be prevented simply by turning them away, letting them go through the existing process, which does work. And before someone says it takes to long, this isn't a race. We have existing policies and process in place, these sanctuary policies are costing citizens lives that does not have to happen. Instead of being a part of the solution, the Democrat Party, its supporters and allies actually facilitate murder against American citizens. There is no If, and a or buts about it.
SwampD Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scottysabres said: With regards to the numbers that were actual citizens, we would need a correlation. I will look that up to see if it is available. As for less restrictive gun rules, your barking up the wrong tree here when it comes to myself at least. I am a proponent of states regulating their own fire arms laws. Including AR-15's, bump stocks and so on. I am not against that at all, as a matter 9f my beliefs based on the writings of Madison, Hamilton and Jay in Federalist Essays 10, 51 and 76 it is reasonable for states to assert their laws at that level, as long as it does not hinder the rights of citizens to defend themselves from over reach in governance. There is no reason the Federal government should be allowed to usurp the 2nd amendment however. Bare in mind, as a Libertarian, I am all in on the ideals of small federal governance. However, with that being said, if, as you point out, there could be correlation between the 2 issues, gun rights and immigration, you fail to point out the most obvious of differences, one is imported, one is domestic. So, with that being said, do you feel the need to heighten the number of casualties by importing more? While trying to wrestle with the domestic issues? While we are at it, lets look at automobile deaths, industrial accident deaths, kitchen knives deaths and most assuredly deaths directly linked to water sports, boating/jet ski's/bungi jumping/recreational drug use both alcohol and non alcohol related. We wrestle with these issues every single day, internally, as citizens. There is 0 reasons to import that which can be prevented simply by turning them away, letting them go through the existing process, which does work. And before someone says it takes to long, this isn't a race. We have existing policies and process in place, these sanctuary policies are costing citizens lives that does not have to happen. Instead of being a part of the solution, the Democrat Party, its supporters and allies actually facilitate murder against American citizens. There is no If, and a or buts about it. You are almost tolerable,... almost, until you spew this kind of garbage. In the same timeframe as all those Mexicans were killing whitey that you sited, there were over 100,000 murders in the US that were made possible by gun policies supported by the Republicans. Republicans facilitate the murder of 100 times the number of American citezens as Democrats. That is a fact. No if ands or buts about it. How about just cut the hyperbole and discuss issues like a person? Edited April 7, 2019 by SwampD 1 1
Weave Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, SwampD said: You are almost tolerable,... almost, until you spew this kind of garbage. In the same timeframe as all those Mexicans were killing whitey that you sited, there were over 100,000 murders into the US that were made possible by gun policies supported by the Republicans. Republicans facilitate the murder of 100 times the number of American citezens as Democrats. That is a fact. No if ands or buts about it. How about just cut the hyperbole and discuss issues like a person? It's all right out of the Breitbart and Infowars playbook.
Scottysabres Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, SwampD said: You are almost tolerable,... almost, until you spew this kind of garbage. In the same timeframe as all those Mexicans were killing whitey that you sited, there were over 100,000 murders into the US that were made possible by gun policies supported by the Republicans. Republicans facilitate the murder of 100 times the number of American citezens as Democrats. That is a fact. No if ands or buts about it. How about just cut the hyperbole and discuss issues like a person? I'm not spewing anything. I am pointing out factually that the policies of the Democrat party are nothing more than death dealing against American Citizens. No more so than George lying ass Bush when he sent 6500+ US service members to their death in Iraq, an illegal War. I can't speak to Iraq's laws at the time, even though I was in the area, I was a protester of that action. I expressed my thoughts to my command, it took them 8 months due to my skill sets, but I was removed from my duties and sent packing, and even then, those that did so, and those I served with, agreed with me. I'm going to call it as I see it, in uniform, out of uniform, it does not matter. I am an American Citizen first and foremost, and I have an oath driven obligation to be true to the values I have sworn that oath to. Whether you agree with that or not, I quite frankly don't give a *****. Put your very existence on the line, read and study who we were, who we are, and the values you were taught, and go from there. If we are on the opposite end of the spectrum on the issues, then so be it. I've more than proven I'm willing to back mine.
SwampD Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Scottysabres said: I'm not spewing anything. I am pointing out factually that the policies of the Democrat party are nothing more than death dealing against American Citizens. No more so than George lying ass Bush when he sent 6500+ US service members to their death in Iraq, an illegal War. I can't speak to Iraq's laws at the time, even though I was in the area, I was a protester of that action. I expressed my thoughts to my command, it took them 8 months due to my skill sets, but I was removed from my duties and sent packing, and even then, those that did so, and those I served with, agreed with me. I'm going to call it as I see it, in uniform, out of uniform, it does not matter. I am an American Citizen first and foremost, and I have an oath driven obligation to be true to the values I have sworn that oath to. Whether you agree with that or not, I quite frankly don't give a *****. Put your very existence on the line, read and study who we were, who we are, and the values you were taught, and go from there. If we are on the opposite end of the spectrum on the issues, then so be it. I've more than proven I'm willing to back mine. I just pointed out facts that the Republicans deal out even more death to American citizens than the Dems but you don’t care. Enjoy your hate. Life’s too short for that.
Scottysabres Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 1 minute ago, SwampD said: I just pointed out facts that the Republicans deal out even more death to American citizens than the Dems but you don’t care. Enjoy your hate. Life’s too short for that. And I've proven through my very actions that Republican, Democrat, it matters not, I will call out political parties that attempt or successfully perform actions against the very core of who I am based on my upbringing. It's not a matter of hate, It's a matter of being one voice, my voice, and I don't shy away from expressing it, as I said, as my past, present, and I'm more than sure, my future actions will prove. You are correct, life is short, it's not a matter of just saying that, you covet what you know. In this day and age, put aside the media bull....., it's a matter of actual policy protection/implementation/creation. I can only live within the confines of what the outside forces around my life are creating, and currently, the Democrat Party, is creating an environment/atmosphere that is not only threatening to my loved ones very existence, it's actually promoting myself and my families death. That's what I see.
Sabel79 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 Makes me pine for the days of arguing about wether Jonathan Haidt indeed has all the answers...
SwampD Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Scottysabres said: And I've proven through my very actions that Republican, Democrat, it matters not, I will call out political parties that attempt or successfully perform actions against the very core of who I am based on my upbringing. It's not a matter of hate, It's a matter of being one voice, my voice, and I don't shy away from expressing it, as I said, as my past, present, and I'm more than sure, my future actions will prove. You are correct, life is short, it's not a matter of just saying that, you covet what you know. In this day and age, put aside the media bull....., it's a matter of actual policy protection/implementation/creation. I can only live within the confines of what the outside forces around my life are creating, and currently, the Democrat Party, is creating an environment/atmosphere that is not only threatening to my loved ones very existence, it's actually promoting myself and my families death. That's what I see. You are way more likely to die because you can’t afford some medical procedure than you are at the hands of a Mexican death squad. The way those Dems wanted to make sure that everyone had health insurance was pure evil.
Scottysabres Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, SwampD said: You are way more likely to die because you can’t afford some medical procedure than you are at the hands of a Mexican death squad. The way those Dems wanted to make sure that everyone had health insurance was pure evil. You'd be surprised Swamp. At least, In our inter actions I think you would. But I'm pro-single payer system. While I don't want to enslave the medical community, of which by the way, my sister is a part of, I do want to ensure our ENTIRE POPULATION, CITIZENS, are covered FOR ALL PROCEDURES. I do not agree with, nor do I subscribe to the way President Obama, and the Democrat controlled House and Senate did so. I mean, come on, you even have one of the primary architects of the Affordable Care Act on audio stating they were LYING to the CITIZENS. What do you want me to say on that alone? I'm going to say the SAME THING I SAID when CRIMINAL PRESIDENT BUSH invaded Iraq. This shouldn't be so difficult for individuals such as ourselves to communicate on such broad stroke issues, and yet, here we are. You, defending an ideology. Myself, defending the foundations of what makes this nation...………..well...………...us. There has to be common sense in this conversation, to date, anyone on this sight has brought 0, to myself. LTS does ask very good questions, but, in the end, questions don't offer solutions. I don't have them all, but some of the more, as I said above, "COMMON SENSE" solutions shouldn't even be debatable. When you look at the totality of the carnage left in the wake of promoting policies that negatively impact CITIZENS, you have to expect US CITIZENS to look at you and say...………………….WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT...……………………..that's just human nature.
SwampD Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 Walling people out is not what has made us,... well, us. I’m out.
Scottysabres Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, SwampD said: Walling people out is not what has made us,... well, us. I’m out. True, you can look at it as "Walling people out". Or, as any common sense citizen can look at it, it's preventing results that are catastrophic to CITIZENS families WHILE ENFORCING the policies set forth by LAW. While you see Nazi Germany? I assume that is what you see in any event, I SEE the ability to better the security of CITIZENS LIVES. And, since you said you were out, I rest my case on conversation. The DEMOCRAT PARTY, and their SUPPORTERS and ALLIES are a DIRECT THREAT TO MY LIFE, MY FAMILIES LIFE, MY LOVED ONES, FRIENDS, PEERS LIVES. You did nothing to convince me other wise, As a matter of fact, YOU REINFORCED IT. Scotty, not OUT, but fully ENGAGED.
Scottysabres Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, Sabel79 said: This is very true, on the 2 headed monster of Republican/Democrat scenario. The 2 party system is actually the epitome of this article.
Weave Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 We're about 2 pages away from all caps and full tin foil hat woo. 1
Scottysabres Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Weave said: We're about 2 pages away from all caps and full tin foil hat woo. I would love to see the families of those that lost loved ones to illegal immigrants put that tinfoil hat on your head. Ohhhhhh the facial expression would be priceless...…………..wouldn't it? Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, your one of those...……….f^^k'em citizens.
SwampD Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 22 minutes ago, Scottysabres said: True, you can look at it as "Walling people out". Or, as any common sense citizen can look at it, it's preventing results that are catastrophic to CITIZENS families WHILE ENFORCING the policies set forth by LAW. While you see Nazi Germany? I assume that is what you see in any event, I SEE the ability to better the security of CITIZENS LIVES. And, since you said you were out, I rest my case on conversation. The DEMOCRAT PARTY, and their SUPPORTERS and ALLIES are a DIRECT THREAT TO MY LIFE, MY FAMILIES LIFE, MY LOVED ONES, FRIENDS, PEERS LIVES. You did nothing to convince me other wise, As a matter of fact, YOU REINFORCED IT. Scotty, not OUT, but fully ENGAGED. Enjoy your fear and hate in your fallout shelter. I’ll be playing bass in the mariachi band out in the sunlight, eating the best empenadas you ever tasted.
Scottysabres Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 Just now, SwampD said: Enjoy your fear and hate in your fallout shelter. I’ll be playing bass in the mariachi band out in the sunlight, eating the best empenadas you ever tasted. Good for you.
LTS Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Scottysabres said: With regards to the numbers that were actual citizens, we would need a correlation. I will look that up to see if it is available. As for less restrictive gun rules, your barking up the wrong tree here when it comes to myself at least. I am a proponent of states regulating their own fire arms laws. Including AR-15's, bump stocks and so on. I am not against that at all, as a matter 9f my beliefs based on the writings of Madison, Hamilton and Jay in Federalist Essays 10, 51 and 76 it is reasonable for states to assert their laws at that level, as long as it does not hinder the rights of citizens to defend themselves from over reach in governance. There is no reason the Federal government should be allowed to usurp the 2nd amendment however. Bare in mind, as a Libertarian, I am all in on the ideals of small federal governance. However, with that being said, if, as you point out, there could be correlation between the 2 issues, gun rights and immigration, you fail to point out the most obvious of differences, one is imported, one is domestic. So, with that being said, do you feel the need to heighten the number of casualties by importing more? While trying to wrestle with the domestic issues? While we are at it, lets look at automobile deaths, industrial accident deaths, kitchen knives deaths and most assuredly deaths directly linked to water sports, boating/jet ski's/bungi jumping/recreational drug use both alcohol and non alcohol related. We wrestle with these issues every single day, internally, as citizens. There is 0 reasons to import that which can be prevented simply by turning them away, letting them go through the existing process, which does work. And before someone says it takes to long, this isn't a race. We have existing policies and process in place, these sanctuary policies are costing citizens lives that does not have to happen. Instead of being a part of the solution, the Democrat Party, its supporters and allies actually facilitate murder against American citizens. There is no If, and a or buts about it. Perhaps I missed where the Democrats are importing illegal citizens into the country? They may not be as opposed to it, but to declare that they are the causation of it is unfounded. People have been entering this country illegally for longer than any one party has had power. Enacting sanctuary policies does not import citizens, it merely makes it harder for ICE to deport them. We can discuss the pros and cons of that but I would not equate that to importing. There's no correlation between gun rights and immigration other than to address your "Trying to defend a policy that takes even just 1 citizens life, is in essence saying, they were expendable for the greater good of a policy that had no greater good for them. " To which my point is, the same holds true for supporting a policy that makes it easier for guns to be obtained (or vice versa, opposing legislation that makes it harder). That is all. Whether these policies are applied at the local, state, or federal level. One last question, and I understand there may be data to support claims in sanctuary cities, but Texas has no sanctuary policy of which I am aware. The data you posted, while I don't doubt as being factual for number of homicide convictions of illegal citizens, is still in question for whom those acts were committed against. It would be more prudent for discussion to look at the number of illegal citizens convicted of homicides in cities that have sanctuary policies, at least if we are to discuss the problem of sanctuary policies relative to the problem of illegal immigrant criminal activity. If the data is not substantively different for Texas and sanctuary cities then I wouldn't question it, per se.
Scottysabres Posted April 7, 2019 Report Posted April 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, LTS said: Perhaps I missed where the Democrats are importing illegal citizens into the country? They may not be as opposed to it, but to declare that they are the causation of it is unfounded. People have been entering this country illegally for longer than any one party has had power. Enacting sanctuary policies does not import citizens, it merely makes it harder for ICE to deport them. We can discuss the pros and cons of that but I would not equate that to importing. There's no correlation between gun rights and immigration other than to address your "Trying to defend a policy that takes even just 1 citizens life, is in essence saying, they were expendable for the greater good of a policy that had no greater good for them. " To which my point is, the same holds true for supporting a policy that makes it easier for guns to be obtained (or vice versa, opposing legislation that makes it harder). That is all. Whether these policies are applied at the local, state, or federal level. One last question, and I understand there may be data to support claims in sanctuary cities, but Texas has no sanctuary policy of which I am aware. The data you posted, while I don't doubt as being factual for number of homicide convictions of illegal citizens, is still in question for whom those acts were committed against. It would be more prudent for discussion to look at the number of illegal citizens convicted of homicides in cities that have sanctuary policies, at least if we are to discuss the problem of sanctuary policies relative to the problem of illegal immigrant criminal activity. If the data is not substantively different for Texas and sanctuary cities then I wouldn't question it, per se. LTS, surely your not going down that road? "Perhaps I missed where the Democrats are importing illegal citizens into the country? They may not be as opposed to it, but to declare that they are the causation of it is unfounded. People have been entering this country illegally for longer than any one party has had power." If your not beyond discussing this honestly, then there is nothing more to say I reckon. If you are unwilling to admit the Democrat Party is not only encouraging illegal crossings of the border, but actually facilitate it by their very support, then, I guess we have nothing to discuss. This isn't a game to myself LTS, I would like you to understand, I've seen the results first hand. I am no more, nor less, a complete supporter of protection for us, citizens. My counter question to you is this...…………………...why is this even debatable given the KNOWN cases of lost citizens lives? Are their lives NOT WORTH the effort to protect them? If you answer in the positive for illegal immigrants in either questions, then why SHOULD I PAY taxes at all? Since my family, my self, are not, in point of fact, to receive the services payed for? More importantly, and I know, this sounds so hysterical, but why shouldn't I grab what fire arms I have and immediately head for the border to shot on sight, because the only protection myself and my family have is to do so, since the agencies I PAY FOR put in place are unable to do so SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE DEMOCRATS protect THESE MURDERERS? These are valid questions, as well as potential actions that may have to take place to prevent my loved ones from being murdered, no? Is it not a possibility? I say it is based on data.
SABRES 0311 Posted April 8, 2019 Report Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, Scottysabres said: LTS, surely your not going down that road? "Perhaps I missed where the Democrats are importing illegal citizens into the country? They may not be as opposed to it, but to declare that they are the causation of it is unfounded. People have been entering this country illegally for longer than any one party has had power." If your not beyond discussing this honestly, then there is nothing more to say I reckon. If you are unwilling to admit the Democrat Party is not only encouraging illegal crossings of the border, but actually facilitate it by their very support, then, I guess we have nothing to discuss. This isn't a game to myself LTS, I would like you to understand, I've seen the results first hand. I am no more, nor less, a complete supporter of protection for us, citizens. My counter question to you is this...…………………...why is this even debatable given the KNOWN cases of lost citizens lives? Are their lives NOT WORTH the effort to protect them? If you answer in the positive for illegal immigrants in either questions, then why SHOULD I PAY taxes at all? Since my family, my self, are not, in point of fact, to receive the services payed for? More importantly, and I know, this sounds so hysterical, but why shouldn't I grab what fire arms I have and immediately head for the border to shot on sight, because the only protection myself and my family have is to do so, since the agencies I PAY FOR put in place are unable to do so SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE DEMOCRATS protect THESE MURDERERS? These are valid questions, as well as potential actions that may have to take place to prevent my loved ones from being murdered, no? Is it not a possibility? I say it is based on data. I understand the frustration and I understand we live in a country where unless you outright say Orange Man bad then everything else falls on deaf ears. You and I seem to agree on a few things but not grabbing your guns and going to the border. Reason being it is like a hostage trying to help the rescue team instead of letting the professionals do their job. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and eventually someone will take a life and lose their own to prison. CBP needs to get beefed up and upgraded. ICE has the job of finding those here illegally either through means of entry or Visa violations. Neither you or I have that mission and to take it on out of emotion will hinder the ones who do. Emotions are fine with the wife but I firmly believe they need to be put in check at times. A man who can’t do that is useless. BTW I’m not saying that you are useless. Yes they are all breaking the law as soon as they set foot on US soil anywhere other than a port of entry. I would guess most came here because the cartel violence and political corruption is rampant all the way up to Mexico. So the US is the closest safe haven. I feel for what they are going through but sanctuary cities and angry people with guns do nothing good. Both are a product of emotional weakness. Unless you turn that anger toward every member of every cartel out of care for the innocent victims. Edited April 8, 2019 by SABRES 0311
LGR4GM Posted April 8, 2019 Author Report Posted April 8, 2019 On 4/6/2019 at 8:35 PM, Scottysabres said: Texas dept. of Public Safety is hardly one man, but, why don't you ask the family members, the kids, of those US Citizens that lost their lives because...…………...well because Democrats are death dealers. I mean, honestly, I got nothing else on it, the policies they support, taking human life after birth, allowing illegal aliens to remain in country via non cooperation with agencies we pay for to protect us taking Citizens lives. Ya, I'm comfortable saying go ask them how they feel. But, I suspect not 1 Democrat supporter or those who support those policies have the balls to do so. It's so much easier to kill from behind the curtain, where you can't see that actual damage that's done, unless of course it's one of their own. Loyalty to an ideology over loyalty to the nation, as a whole. That street goes both ways I guess. So you believe the Texas Department of Public Safety but not the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
LGR4GM Posted April 8, 2019 Author Report Posted April 8, 2019 Unfortunatley the data is from 2009 so is limited but at the time roughly 46million Americans did not have insurance. Today that number varies but last I looked was in the 27million range. So we can spend 20 billion on a wall and save some 2-3 thousand lives or we can spend 20 billion on fixing healthcare and save 45k. To live in freedom is to live with risk. "Lack of health insurance is associated with as many as 44 789 deaths per year in the United States, more than those caused by kidney disease (n = 42 868).41 The increased risk of death attributable to uninsurance suggests that alternative measures of access to medical care for the uninsured, such as community health centers, do not provide the protection of private health insurance. Despite widespread acknowledgment that enacting universal coverage would be life saving, doing so remains politically thorny. Now that health reform is again on the political agenda, health professionals have the opportunity to advocate universal coverage." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775760/
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