Quality of MLS soccer

[Eleven]

...

[Samson's Flow]

It's been improving lately, but there is still a big gap between the top MLS teams and even the average/relegation risk EPL teams. There's a reason that the old stars from the EPL are able to come to MLS and get big contracts and still make the starting 11 as impact players.

It's also the reason the USMNT can't rely on MLS players if they want to be competitive on the national stage. It's a pretty significant skill and pace gap.

[sabills]

From my completely uneducated guess, straight from the gut, I'd put them at about Championship. I feel like if you took the top tier of the MLS and stuck them in English League Football they'd settle in nicely in the middle of the pack of Championship with a possibility for promotion at some point.

 

[Sabel79]

The upper half of League One / lower half of the Championship is about right.  

[Eleven]

3 hours ago, Sabel79 said:

The upper half of League One / lower half of the Championship is about right.  

I think so too. I delayed my vote, but that's where I went with it.  

 

It's a sorry state.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

3 hours ago, Sabel79 said:

The upper half of League One / lower half of the Championship is about right.  

Yeah.  I think this is about right.

I only follow the Premier League and not the others, so I am not really sure.

The most telling thing to me is that there are no MLS players that the Premier League are requiting in any transfer window.  Not sure about the other leagues.

Older / former star players in Europe come to NA and to make millions in the MLS at the end of their careers ... hello, Zlatan.

[Huckleberry]

To be fair I can't see any MLS team even beat the top 5 teams of countries like Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal ....

So I would say bottom of championship should be right.

[Samson's Flow]

And Americans wonder why the USMNT didn't qualify for the World Cup this year? Your home league is just not up to par with the international stage, so we don't have the depth required to have a strong national team.

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, Samson's Flow said:

And Americans wonder why the USMNT didn't qualify for the World Cup this year? Your home league is just not up to par with the international stage, so we don't have the depth required to have a strong national team.

I don't think Belgium and Croatia have especially strong domestic leagues, either, though.

[sabills]

3 hours ago, Samson's Flow said:

And Americans wonder why the USMNT didn't qualify for the World Cup this year? Your home league is just not up to par with the international stage, so we don't have the depth required to have a strong national team.

 

36 minutes ago, Eleven said:

I don't think Belgium and Croatia have especially strong domestic leagues, either, though.

 

Yeah, I'd say the US's problem is that they try to keep their talent in the MLS instead of letting them play in objectively better leagues in Europe.

[Samson's Flow]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

I don't think Belgium and Croatia have especially strong domestic leagues, either, though.

But because of passport freedom, the Belgium & Croatia players can play in any of the elite leagues in Europe. Americans can only play in the US during their teen development years, unless you have a dual citizenship passport like Pulisic did.

Our development system in the US is way below what the British and European football academies are, and it really hurts us from generating top-tier skill players.

[WildCard]

Watch a fair bit of MLS (go NYCFC) and have been to a game, the style is just so much more...amateur. They don't have the skill or, I don't know what it is, to run such nuanced offenses as you see in the other big 5 leagues. The MLS also knows what style of sport Americans like to watch, so they don't call fouls at all. As a result, the MLS really truly is a hockey style soccer; it's just back and forth sprinting and breakaway with a ton of action and opportunities. Now, it's a TON of fun, and I 100% recommend going to a live game, but they would be absolutely dismantled by any team/league that had an ounce of strategy 

[Eleven]

16 hours ago, Samson's Flow said:

But because of passport freedom, the Belgium & Croatia players can play in any of the elite leagues in Europe. Americans can only play in the US during their teen development years, unless you have a dual citizenship passport like Pulisic did.

Our development system in the US is way below what the British and European football academies are, and it really hurts us from generating top-tier skill players.

There are lots of US players who played internationally, though.  Fulham had like three or four Americans at one point, like McBride and Dempsey, and I know Tim Howard played overseas as an adult.  Maybe they changed the rules recently?

[sabills]

57 minutes ago, Eleven said:

There are lots of US players who played internationally, though.  Fulham had like three or four Americans at one point, like McBride and Dempsey, and I know Tim Howard played overseas as an adult.  Maybe they changed the rules recently?

Donovan and Howard both played for Everton

[Samson's Flow]

On 7/10/2018 at 8:34 AM, Eleven said:

There are lots of US players who played internationally, though.  Fulham had like three or four Americans at one point, like McBride and Dempsey, and I know Tim Howard played overseas as an adult.  Maybe they changed the rules recently?

Sorry I should have been more specific. there is a FIFA rule that doesn't allow youth development players to join overseas clubs until after their 19th birthday. Much of the major skill development occurs in the 15-18 age range, and our top youth players in the US end up being underdeveloped because of a lack of competition & skill focus domestically. Those young "stars" end up being the primary focus of their youth teams, where the team strategy amounts to "pass it to star player and have him run past everyone". Compare that to the youth academies in Europe/England that have a higher talent base and continue to focus on skill development and tactics.

The only US players that can go to those top European development programs early are ones with dual citizenship and EU passports (like Pulisic who has a Croatian citizenship). This was a big focus of the Jurgen Klinsmann era, is finding and developing the dual citizen US players to play more of a European style game.

https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/70870/us-players-in-europe-a-quality-problem-not-qua.html

Excerpt from above:

Quote

Of the 69 U.S. players playing in Europe, 28 (41 percent) of them are products of another country’s youth development system.  Seventeen of those 28 players (61 percent) have at least one cap for the USYNT or USMNT.  The other 41 are products of the U.S. youth development system.

Out of the 69 U.S. players, 20 of them are playing in the top five leagues of Europe. Well to be exact they are playing in the Premier League and the Bundesliga and there are no US players in the Liga, the Serie A or the Ligue 1. Out of 20 only six (30 percent) of them have been developed by the U.S. youth development systems. Of those six, only Pulisic is playing for a team that competes in the Champions League or Europa League.

Sixteen out of 20 played for the USMNT at some level. All the players in those five leagues except five have dual citizenships. Brad Guzan and Geoff Cameron got their work permit based on the number of their caps. Bobby Wood, Emerson Hyndman and Lynden Gooch bypassed the FIFA’s ban of transfers before the age of 18 and joined English or German academies at an early age.

Even though we might think that there is not much of a quantity problem in the export of players to Europe, there definitely is a quality problem.  Out of the 41 players we exported to the top tier professional leagues in Europe, only one is playing in a top club and six of them are playing in a club in one of the top five leagues.

There is another interesting observation: There are 18 U.S.-developed players out of 41 who moved to Europe before the age of 19, bypassing FIFA’s ban thanks to holding passports from EU nations. They started their pro career in Europe. Four of them are in the top five leagues. This tells a lot about the expectations of U.S.-developed players toward the professional soccer environment in this country.

In 2015, U.S. leagues (MLS, NASL, USL and PDL) imported 70 players from UK, France and Spain and a total of 227 from Europe. If you consider that USA has only 61 professional men’s teams then to export 41 players to Europe might be meaningful. If you keep in mind that the first-tier professional league, MLS is only 21 years old and that the number of players the Developmental Academies are producing for the professional teams are increasing, you might be optimistic about the future.

But let us not forget that we are talking about a continent nation of 320 million people, with the highest GDP on the planet and the most successful nation in the Olympics history. Then you might like to think twice.

 

[Eleven]

6 minutes ago, Samson's Flow said:

Sorry I should have been more specific. there is a FIFA rule that doesn't allow youth development players to join overseas clubs until after their 19th birthday. Much of the major skill development occurs in the 15-18 age range, and our top youth players in the US end up being underdeveloped because of a lack of competition & skill focus domestically. Those young "stars" end up being the primary focus of their youth teams, where the team strategy amounts to "pass it to star player and have him run past everyone". Compare that to the youth academies in Europe/England that have a higher talent base and continue to focus on skill development and tactics.

 

 

Now I understand much more clearly.  Thanks.

[Iron Crotch]

23 hours ago, Samson's Flow said:

Sorry I should have been more specific. there is a FIFA rule that doesn't allow youth development players to join overseas clubs until after their 19th birthday. Much of the major skill development occurs in the 15-18 age range, and our top youth players in the US end up being underdeveloped because of a lack of competition & skill focus domestically. Those young "stars" end up being the primary focus of their youth teams, where the team strategy amounts to "pass it to star player and have him run past everyone". Compare that to the youth academies in Europe/England that have a higher talent base and continue to focus on skill development and tactics.

The only US players that can go to those top European development programs early are ones with dual citizenship and EU passports (like Pulisic who has a Croatian citizenship). This was a big focus of the Jurgen Klinsmann era, is finding and developing the dual citizen US players to play more of a European style game.

https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/70870/us-players-in-europe-a-quality-problem-not-qua.html

Excerpt from above:

 

This isn't entirely true. The age that Americans are allowed to play for European clubs is 18 not 19. I believe you can train with a team before turning 18 with no contract - Josh Sargent trained with Werder Bremen's first team before he signed on his 18th birthday. But you cannot play in any matches until turning 18.

The EU passport rule is a little loose. You need a grandparent (or parent) with EU citizenship. That's how Pulisic got around the rules - Croatian grandfather.

Other exceptions that'll allow an American to play in Europe before turning 18:

1. The player’s parents move to the country in which the new club is located for reasons not linked in soccer.
2. The transfer takes place within the territory of the EU and the player is at least 16.
3. The player lives outside the country, but no further than 50km from a national border. The club must be within 50km from the border.

 

IMHO, the "American's can't develop" stuff was pretty true in the past. But most MLS clubs now run European-style youth academies. They're producing comparable players to the European academies and many of (the best of) these players have been signing with European clubs. But this is a recent phenomenon - MLS academies have only been around for a decade. That the US has the best and deepest collection of young talent (17-22) it has ever had probably isn't a coincidence.

 

[Eleven]

So the MLS all-stars couldn't beat a Serie A team (which wasn't using its best players, either).  That tells me something.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 minutes ago, Eleven said:

So the MLS all-stars couldn't beat a Serie A team (which wasn't using its best players, either).  That tells me something.

It tells me exactly what I would expect when an all-star MLS team plays a top flight team in the Premier Italian league.  I expect the MLS all-stars to lose everytime.

Did Zlatan play?  How about Rooney, although he would probably not have been in game shape.

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, N S said:

It tells me exactly what I would expect when an all-star MLS team plays a top flight team in the Premier Italian league.  I expect the MLS all-stars to lose everytime.

Did Zlatan play?  How about Rooney, although he would probably not have been in game shape.

Now just think what a Premier League all-star team would have done to Juve...

Neither of those guys played.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

24 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Now just think what a Premier League all-star team would have done to Juve...

Neither of those guys played.

I think Juventus would have held their own against a EPL all-star team, especially with the newly arrived CR7.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I'm not sure if this is a reflection of the quality of MLS football, but last year TFC had the best record in the history of the MLS and this season they are not going to make the playoff, very likely to miss out anyway.  I think they are still alive, but barely.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Interesting development (?) ... maybe (?) ...

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/mls-shortens-season-by-month-goes-to-all-knockout-playoffs-1.4949649

Does anyone really care?

[Huckleberry]

On 7/9/2018 at 9:00 PM, Eleven said:

I don't think Belgium and Croatia have especially strong domestic leagues, either, though.

Our league is seen as the best league for young players to grow before they go to the EPL or any other of the top 5 european leagues.

Sadly a lot of our teams from our 1st and 2nd division are in foreign hands now.   Glad mine is still independent.

[That Aud Smell]

Watching some of the USMNT-Panama game last night, and seeing a US team populated with what I presume were MLS players ... and, yeah. The league's just not up to snuff when compared with the major top flights in Europe.

I'd be more okay with that, if there were more freedom for US prospects to train in Europe from a young age and if the USMNT program encouraged its best players to play in Europe. As to the latter, I think Klinsmann as an advocate of that, but I think the tide has turned with the appointments of US-born managers.