Trade: Ryan O'Reilly to St Louis Blues

[Hoss]

Zadorov (#16 overall), Grigorenko (#12 overall), Compher (#35 overall), Pick #31 overall (traded for #39, AJ Greer)

 

-For-

 

(two years of O'Reilly and)

 

Berglund, Sobotka, Thompson (#26 overall), 1st round (top ten protected), 2nd round

 

=====

 

If Compher (#35) is the 2nd rounder, Zadorov (#16) is the 1st rounder, Thompson (#26) is the #31, this leaves:

 

Grigorenko (#12 overall) for Berglund, Sobotka

 

=====

 

Are Berglund and Sobotka worth a #12 overall pick?

For the record, they also got Jamie McGinn in that trade who they flipped for a third round pick. That third rounder became a failed attempt at Jimmy Vesey. The selection at that slot by Nashville was Rem Pitlick who hasn’t panned out to this point.

[nfreeman]

That's incredibly vague and far less convincing than any case that can be made for ROR with video, stats, both, neither, and hearing some Canucks fan talk about what he knows of ROR from the occasional WHC game and 2 Sabres games per year, though. 

It's going to be a confusing first few weeks reading Hamilton's lineup tweets (he uses player jersey numbers) :lol:

 

Respectfully, you're trying too hard here. O'Reilly would have to be a serial killer to completely offset what he does on the ice. And again, if he really does have that much of a negative influence on everyone else, we're right and screwed anyway. Talk about soft.

 

Except that the guys who have both professional experience and physical proximity to the situation clearly determined that getting rid of ROR was needed to improve the team.

 

They made that determination being fully aware of ROR's numbers.

 

Some people create more problems than they solve.

 

 

The more I think about the trade, the more I think they're just warm bodies included to make the money work and be roster placeholders to give some of our kids (Asplud, Olofsson, etc.) time in Rochester. The core of the trade is the futures.

 

I agree with this.

[pi2000]

XGMTM cashed in too many of his "resource chips" on major deals that didn't pan out as well as hoped.  He swung for the fences and missed.  JBot is much more focused on improving the farm club than XGMTM which drives some posters crazy but is the way you build a consistently contending team (think Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago).  It doesn't last forever, but that's the way to build a team that isn't a flash in the pan.

 

The two are not mutually exclusive.   You can keep ROR and build the farm team.  

 

 

This is just being argumentative for being argumentative sake. 

 

How?  Liger responded that he knows a guy "with knowledge" and claims that Kane "absolutely needed to be moved"... for what reason I don't know.   If he's so toxic, then why did he get a nice long contract from Doug Wilson (who has much more NHL management experience than Botterill).    

 

 

Drugs are bad though. In any location.

 

There you have it, that's the answer I was looking for.    So SJ can tolerate his drug issues because veterans in the locker room keep him in check and are mature enough not to let it rub off on them.    That makes more sense.   That said, IMO drug use is rampant in the NHL and he's not the only one in that Sabres lockerroom who has those same issues.... but yeah I can see where that would be a bad influence on on the young kids and perhaps JBOT is just trying to create a clean environment.

 

The only way the ROR trade makes any sense is if ROR is dealing with the same issues.    I spoke to him briefly in Vegas and I don't want to jump conclusions, but he did exhibit characteristics of somebody who uses cocaine on a regular basis.   He seemed jumpy, short attention span, sniffling, quick short rapid responses, on edge, pale skin, dark sunken eyes... maybe that's just his personality, but I wasn't born yesterday either. 

 

 

 

The problem is situational.

 

Adding a young vet that is similar to E. Kane to the Sabres when Eichel is entering his age 30 season (still with the Sabres)? Probably not an issue.

 

Adding a young vet that is E. Kane to the Sabres when the core is young and still finding its way? That was apparently a very real issue.

 

agreed, makes sense

 

 

Sometimes a contract is so bad no one else will take it.  Matty Mo is still on the Sabres books, but he no longer takes up a roster spot.  When we talk about people like Pommer and Berglund taking roster spots away, it's taking them away from younger players potentially ready to move up.  The fact that the aging contracts are on our books won't prevent an ELC player from taking the veteran's roster spot.

 

Understood, but if contracts like Clarkson, Pronger and Datsyuk can get traded, so can Bogo and Matt Moulson.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Ha it’s no worry. Just my perspective. I’m sure it very well could be different if I was a lifelong Sabres fan.

 

Our esteemed Eleven meant that your content and contribution were fine.  Good in fact, but very hard to read.  He was suggesting that using the enter key to start a new paragraph now and then would be helpful in the reading.

 

Oh, yeah ... welcome to Sabrespace and to Sabre / hockey fandom.

[Randall Flagg]

Except that the guys who have both professional experience and physical proximity to the situation clearly determined that getting rid of ROR was needed to improve the team.

 

They made that determination being fully aware of ROR's numbers.

 

Some people create more problems than they solve.

 

They also built the league-worst depth and turned a team that underperformed badly enough to get a coach and GM fired into a team almost 20 points worse, which is why I get nothing from appealing to their authority. 

 

They could be right, and ROR could have to be moved, and the return coupled with their track record to this point is still fury-inducing.

[Taro T]

So, strictly playing devil's advocate here, IF this trade lifts weight off Nylander's shoulders & he turns into a legit 2nd liner, does that factor into the evaluation of the trade?

 

Because IF the trade becomes O'Reilly for a #8 overall, 2 late 1sts, 1 2nd that might be useful before my kids are married, & the Pegulas getting to keep $185k walk around money, it doesn't look awful.

[TrueBlueGED]

Except that the guys who have both professional experience and physical proximity to the situation clearly determined that getting rid of ROR was needed to improve the team.

 

They made that determination being fully aware of ROR's numbers.

 

Some people create more problems than they solve.

 

 

 

I agree with this.

 

I definitely agree that determination was made. I don't think Botterill woke up and said "sure what the hell, this might be fun" and moved O'Reilly. But that assessment, though made in deliberative fashion, could easily be a colossal miscalculation. These things aren't exactly uncommon in professional sports. 

 

And see, we can agree on things! :)

[nfreeman]

They also built the league-worst depth and turned a team that underperformed badly enough to get a coach and GM fired into a team almost 20 points worse, which is why I get nothing from appealing to their authority. 

 

They could be right, and ROR could have to be moved, and the return coupled with their track record to this point is still fury-inducing.

 

I assume you mean bottom-6 scoring?  Overall the depth in the organization seems much improved in just one year.

 

It's quite reasonable for you to be skeptical of their judgment given last season's debacle.  But I think a new GM (and coach) need time to be fairly evaluated. 

 

So, strictly playing devil's advocate here, IF this trade lifts weight off Nylander's shoulders & he turns into a legit 2nd liner, does that factor into the evaluation of the trade?

 

Because IF the trade becomes O'Reilly for a #8 overall, 2 late 1sts, 1 2nd that might be useful before my kids are married, & the Pegulas getting to keep $185k walk around money, it doesn't look awful.

 

Why would this trade help Nylander?  Because ROR is COR's brother, and COR was a DB to Nylander?  (Not challenging, just asking.)

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Thompson is only 20 years old.  Yes, he didn't do much last season but who was he playing with: scorers, checkers, penalty killers?  We may have something here; we may not.  But he's an interesting proposition.  It's too early to be judgemental.  Hopefully he'll develop and contribute down the road.

Also, Thompson averaged less than 12 minutes a game with St. Louis.

[Robviously]

The more I think about the trade, the more I think they're just warm bodies included to make the money work and be roster placeholders to give some of our kids (Asplud, Olofsson, etc.) time in Rochester. The core of the trade is the futures.

Exactly. And Berglund's contract being 4 more years after this one is too long but he's not going to kill us at under $4M AAV.

[Ducky]

JBots isn't looking to build a team to win the cup next year. He is building a team to try to be a contender every year. You don't do that overnight. You identify your corps moving forward and build around them...mainly through the draft. I think he took the year to assess the players and scouting department what was in the cupboard.

You have two world class talents in Dahlin and Eichel to build a team around. That is a great starting point. Those picks he got for ROR could turn out to be valuable players for the organization for years to come. Mittlestadt looks to be a great prospect and I am sure he will build a winner if given the time.

ROR is a great player and probably in his prime but the Sabres don't really need him now. They'll need people in their primes in 3 or 4 years. I would've love to see him come here but too much dough.

[Randall Flagg]

I assume you mean bottom-6 scoring?  Overall the depth in the organization seems much improved in just one year.

 

It's quite reasonable for you to be skeptical of their judgment given last season's debacle.  But I think a new GM (and coach) need time to be fairly evaluated. 

Yes, it was worst in the league and lost 5 goals and 6 and more points from the team the season before (and that includes ignoring noted bottom-sixer Brian Gionta of that season, counting him as a top 6 presence for sake of the stat) WITH league scoring going up a non-negligible amount this year. I like a lot of the "prospect" style depth we have, but most of the pieces I like are Murray additions and I think there's tremendous value in the fact that we threw away an Eich ELC season and a third in five years.

 

I completely agree, and I think our only difference here is my tendency to be fire-y about every opinion I have versus your more measured approach. I am not done with Jason or Phil yet, but will happily animate how I feel about things they do along the way. 

[Taro T]

I assume you mean bottom-6 scoring?  Overall the depth in the organization seems much improved in just one year.

 

It's quite reasonable for you to be skeptical of their judgment given last season's debacle.  But I think a new GM (and coach) need time to be fairly evaluated. 

 

 

 

Why would this trade help Nylander?  Because ROR is COR's brother, and COR was a DB to Nylander?  (Not challenging, just asking.)

That's the premise. Not saying it's accurate nor reality, but IF it is, does the trade look good when thst is factored in?

[nfreeman]

Well, if Nylander blooms in ROR's absence and suddenly the Sabres have a legit scoring winger instead of a washout, I'll gladly fight through my shock to add that to the plus side of the ROR trade ledger!

[Randall Flagg]

I know True will appreciate this. 

In three full NHL seasons together, Jack Eichel and Ryan O'Reilly played 60,70, and then 28 minutes together for a total of less than 3 full games' worth. During this time, the team's offense dwindled and dried up, despite each of their underlying metrics getting better progressively, and Jack's numbers following (ROR's didn't because usage). 

I truly believe that managerial incompetence at many levels has squandered untold amounts of potential for this franchise. 

[Georgia Blizzard]

Well, if Nylander blooms in ROR's absence and suddenly the Sabres have a legit scoring winger instead of a washout, I'll gladly fight through my shock to add that to the plus side of the ROR trade ledger!

What does Nylander blooming have to do with ROR leaving ?

[pi2000]

What does Nylander blooming have to do with ROR leaving ?

 

Nothing.   Just tells you how desperate the fan base is to put a positive spin on the ROR trade.

[shrader]

Well, if Nylander blooms in ROR's absence and suddenly the Sabres have a legit scoring winger instead of a washout, I'll gladly fight through my shock to add that to the plus side of the ROR trade ledger!

 

I don't know how you could possibly quantify this though. 

[LikeEich]

The fact that a large majority of the board was in favor of the kane deal with Winnipeg, tells me this trade isn't as bad as you think!

[7+6=13]

I know True will appreciate this. 

 

In three full NHL seasons together, Jack Eichel and Ryan O'Reilly played 60,70, and then 28 minutes together for a total of less than 3 full games' worth. During this time, the team's offense dwindled and dried up, despite each of their underlying metrics getting better progressively, and Jack's numbers following (ROR's didn't because usage). 

 

I truly believe that managerial incompetence at many levels has squandered untold amounts of potential for this franchise. 

 

Agreed.  I think this is largely because we didn't have the middle of the team filled out with NHL players.  We had to dissipate our most talented players because of how weak we were in the middle of the lineup.  The middle is being addressed and I think the whole will be better.  Not to mention we stock piled futures and picks while doing it. 

[Taro T]

What does Nylander blooming have to do with ROR leaving ?

Read above, it was a devil's advocate hypothetical question.

[Georgia Blizzard]

Read above, it was a devil's advocate hypothetical question.

 

 

Wow, that's quite a stretch to make, and I liked the trade !

[Taro T]

Wow, that's quite a stretch to make, and I liked the trade !

:lol:

 

Thanks. :beer:

[LikeEich]

Also when did guys over 29 become the Antichrist? I sweat some people think turning 30 the player automatically drops off the face of the earth. Name ONE team that has either made the playoffs or won a cup without one...

Edited July 2, 2018 by LikeEich

[Huckleberry]

Maybe Jbot is looking a bit further with regards to center depth than we are.

 

Eichel - Mittelstadt as  our top 6 centers,  But PU came close to having a 9 game tryout last year, and we have a lot of good young centers in the pipeline.

 

Trading O'Reilly really is a Luxury we could afford.