Trade: Ryan O'Reilly to St Louis Blues

[Doohicksie]

Which guy might go back to Russia?

 

The one with the Eastern Euro name:  Sobotka.  Yes he's Czech, but he's played in the KHL before.

[bob_sauve28]

Good morning! So... did I miss anything?

 

I feel the good in the trade... the conflict. The Amerks will be better this year (I'm assuming Thompson starts there). But there's a lot of Berglund years not to like, plus I don't see how he fits the type of roster JBot wants. There are still moves to be made, but I don't see the scoring replacement yet for Kane and O'Reilly. Overall I have a bad feeling about this (year). in 2019-20, I think this feels better, but always in motion is the future.

yes, there are alternate ways to fighting...

 

Best quote I could come up with...

[Randall Flagg]

If you plopped this roster down in front of everyone, gave them their base knowledge of NHL hockey players but removed their understanding of the history of the development of the roster, two of the first five things that we would try to do with it before starting next season are moving Berglund and Sobotka.

[Doohicksie]

This is a reasonable take.  The downside to that strategy is the lack of spots for the younger players to grab.  You can have so many players on the NHL roster. If Asplund or Olofson are ready, what do we do with Pommers, Berglund etc.  Waiting for the contracts to expire also has a cost.

 

Find spots for them in the AHL.  Waive them.  Seriously.  We did it with Matty Mo and it freed up his roster spot. 

[WildCard]

If you plopped this roster down in front of everyone, gave them their base knowledge of NHL hockey players but removed their understanding of the history of the development of the roster, two of the first five things that we would try to do with it before starting next season are moving Berglund and Sobotka.

Yeah but context does matter. That's the whole reason RoR was moved in the first place. Teams aren't just a collection of talent. 

[LGR4GM]

So the problem is the players surrounding him, got it.

Lol. No but I'm done here.

 

 

 

 

Drugs are bad though. In any location.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Skurk Liger

[That Aud Smell]

So is Kane in a vacuum a problem or not?

 

There's not an NHL club that operates or plays in a vacuum. So I'll pass on the question.

 

So the problem is the players surrounding him, got it.

 

The problem is situational.

 

Adding a young vet that is similar to E. Kane to the Sabres when Eichel is entering his age 30 season (still with the Sabres)? Probably not an issue.

 

Adding a young vet that is E. Kane to the Sabres when the core is young and still finding its way? That was apparently a very real issue.

 

It's unremarkable, really.

 

Or are you finding fault with the fact that Eichel at age 19 wasn't magically transformed into the second coming of a grizzled Mark Messier?

[WildCard]

Drugs are bad though. In any location.

Eh. Everything in moderation

[...]

The only thing the Sabres really lose in this is a face-off specialist.  Otherwise, the tactics, assignments and roles will obviously change.  Having ROR on your team forces you to rely on him, because, you have ROR on your team.  Well, now they don't, and therefore the door is opened to change.  In the case of the Sabres, change is definitely needed.

 

On ROR's skill/talent:  skill and talent are not synonymous with success and winning.  I'm not suggesting the Nolan Way, but I am saying that there are many, many talented and skilled people in the world who can't get it together and become a success, or, at least, be a successful team player.

 

Team building in any context is an art,  Any person in a leadership capacity should know this.  Getting a group together that is successful is the same no matter what the task.  For kids sports teams, you have the tiers of talent; in business you try and hire correctly, rock bands; a professional kitchen - it's obvious after a while when someone doesn't fit.  

 

I think Mittelstadt did enough over the past week to help JBots with this decision.  It'll be a young team out there - hopefully it'll be fun to watch.  

 

[Doohicksie]

He’s a free agent Botterill publicly indicated they had no interest in retaining. That’s so because he sucks.

 

He'll be a free agent in 2 years.

[TrueBlueGED]

Yeah but context does matter. That's the whole reason RoR was moved in the first place. Teams aren't just a collection of talent. 

 

They're not just a collection of friends singing kumbaya in the locker room, either. Some of the best teams in history across all sports have had guys who didn't get along off the ice.

[North Buffalo]

Actually, I'd say the odds would be against us being a contender, but that's sports. What are the odds of being a contender keeping ROR? I'd say less. This is all playing the odds. Get younger, get chances at picking good players and play hockey, hopefully it works. For 30 teams next year it won't.

I like the trade because I think it increases our chances in the near future of being better. That's it.

I think your definition of near term and mine are very different. Im thinking beginning of next year. Im guessing you are thinking in the next couple years. Though Im betting itll be longer than that with the development process.

[nfreeman]

Would you mind expanding upon this? I'm not sure what you're getting at with it, and don't want to type out a full response if it's not going to address what you're saying. The narrative around the Hall trade was full of leadership stuff, and Chiarelli was heavily reported to want to shake up the room and "hand the reigns" to McDavid.  But I'm not sure if that's what you meant.

 

 

 

1) I may well underrate the on-ice value of off-ice chemistry (note: I absolutely value on-ice chemistry, I just don't think it comes from the locker room). But, it's equally plausible that others over-value the locker room when overall team talent is poor. If the Sabres had a playoff roster and still managed to finish dead last, I'd be much more amenable to the "there had to be a shakeup" line of reasoning. However, the roster stunk, and results were pretty commensurate with what should have been expected with sub-replacement level goaltending. 

 

2) Yes. As I explained in #1, I think this team needs an influx of talent, not a shakeup. More generally, I'd rather not make any changes at all than make a bad change.

 

 

Regarding the Hall trade -- my recollection is that while there were noises from Edmonton about a shakeup, Hall wasn't openly put up for auction in the same way that ROR was, and when the trade happened, most hockey observers were somewhat blindsided.

 

There is of course no way to know for sure, but I thought the Sabres' roster last year was well above DFL level.  In the past 3 seasons, they went from 81 to 78 to 62 points.  They came out completely dead too many times to count.  Something was very wrong, and it went well beyond having a lousy roster, IMHO.

 

If they hadn't made this or a shakeup change -- which appears to have been your preference -- would you have expected better results next season?

 

 

After sleeping on this, I hate the trade more than I did yesterday. 

 

I think nfreeman phrases it incorrectly when he says the TBPHD group doesn't account for locker room stuff. We understand that it's a thing, and think that being a crappy team begets the locker room issues. It's not that ROR is sleeping with all of his teammate's wives, it's that we sucked and he freaking said so. That is literally the thing everyone points to when talking about his problems - saying that it is draining to play a garbage role on a garbage team that barely got out of the 50s as far as points in the standings go.

 

We had 3 good forwards this year. By good I mean GOOD. By good I mean, either they won their goddamn matchups and made the net team results better than it would be with league average replacement at that spot (Reinhart, ROR), or scored a lot of points (Eichel). I know we like to use the word "good" loosely to qualify a guy like Okposo, who has fairly recently seen NHL success, or (...I'm struggling to think of other names, our roster is that bad) Girgensons because he had 15 goals in 61 games once and has decent straight line speed, but these are not good NHL players. Our lack of good NHL players in the forward group is half of what made us so bad (Lehner + defense, but mostly Lehner, is the other half). I'm not saying the good teams have 12 good NHL forwards, but they have 6-8. The GM who was the architect of the league-worst depth scoring traded the best combination of possession and points we had because of this locker room issue, but he didn't get any good, as defined above, NHL players back, and we have 2 left, with hopes that Mittelstadt eventually becomes one. Great, you got the mopey guy out of the locker room, but you made the team worse for a prospect that Blues fans are ###### ecstatic to move because he wasn't in their top 5. Botterill has blinked on two major trades so far. 

 

We can put Sobotka and Berglund in our depth all we want and pretend that's going to overcome not only the player we had in ROR, but the one we could have with adjusted usage, but I've read far too much about them in the last year to expect to be pleased with what they bring on the ice. Berglund might score some goals and be Okposo-good, and Sobotka is somebody Doug Armstrong pumped his fist in excitement upon learning he could move. I wouldn't be this upset if Berglund and Sobotka were NHL depth like Jordan Staal and JG Pageau. There's a reason St. Louis has been looking to shed their contracts for a year+ (the plus is for Patrick). They are not this depth. They are not good NHL players in the sense that we had better start using again watching our team if we actually want to see improved on-ice results.

 

It's in my sig, man. I hate the way this franchise looks at building hockey teams as much as I hate that stupid post during the tank year bragging about all of our third round picks we had. 

 

At least we flushed a Canadian CHL product for another Swede, center Patrik Berglund, whose last 180 games have seen 25 assists. 

 

 

Respectfully, you are using stats as a proxy for "good," and while I understand the reasons for doing so, there's more to being a good player than putting up numbers, and there's more to being a bad player than failing to put up numbers.

 

Sometimes there are people at work who appear to be good at their jobs but in reality detract more than they add.

[TrueBlueGED]

The only thing the Sabres really lose in this is a face-off specialist.  Otherwise, the tactics, assignments and roles will obviously change.  Having ROR on your team forces you to rely on him, because, you have ROR on your team.  Well, now they don't, and therefore the door is opened to change.  In the case of the Sabres, change is definitely needed.

 

On ROR's skill/talent:  skill and talent are not synonymous with success and winning.  I'm not suggesting the Nolan Way, but I am saying that there are many, many talented and skilled people in the world who can't get it together and become a success, or, at least, be a successful team player.

 

Team building in any context is an art,  Any person in a leadership capacity should know this.  Getting a group together that is successful is the same no matter what the task.  For kids sports teams, you have the tiers of talent; in business you try and hire correctly, rock bands; a professional kitchen - it's obvious after a while when someone doesn't fit.  

 

I think Mittelstadt did enough over the past week to help JBots with this decision.  It'll be a young team out there - hopefully it'll be fun to watch.  

 

Your subsequent points are fair and well-taken, but this one really isn't. How ROR was relied upon is a coaching choice. It didn't have to be that way merely because he exists. 

[darksabre]

The only thing the Sabres really lose in this is a face-off specialist.  Otherwise, the tactics, assignments and roles will obviously change.  Having ROR on your team forces you to rely on him, because, you have ROR on your team.  Well, now they don't, and therefore the door is opened to change.  In the case of the Sabres, change is definitely needed.

 

On ROR's skill/talent:  skill and talent are not synonymous with success and winning.  I'm not suggesting the Nolan Way, but I am saying that there are many, many talented and skilled people in the world who can't get it together and become a success, or, at least, be a successful team player.

 

Team building in any context is an art,  Any person in a leadership capacity should know this.  Getting a group together that is successful is the same no matter what the task.  For kids sports teams, you have the tiers of talent; in business you try and hire correctly, rock bands; a professional kitchen - it's obvious after a while when someone doesn't fit.  

 

I think Mittelstadt did enough over the past week to help JBots with this decision.  It'll be a young team out there - hopefully it'll be fun to watch.  

I agree with this.

[shrader]

Drugs are bad though. In any location.

 

Are we catching onto all of this just now?  It's kind of interesting to see how some posters are given the troll label while others aren't.

 

The only thing the Sabres really lose in this is a face-off specialist.  Otherwise, the tactics, assignments and roles will obviously change.  Having ROR on your team forces you to rely on him, because, you have ROR on your team.  Well, now they don't, and therefore the door is opened to change.  In the case of the Sabres, change is definitely needed.

 

On ROR's skill/talent:  skill and talent are not synonymous with success and winning.  I'm not suggesting the Nolan Way, but I am saying that there are many, many talented and skilled people in the world who can't get it together and become a success, or, at least, be a successful team player.

 

Team building in any context is an art,  Any person in a leadership capacity should know this.  Getting a group together that is successful is the same no matter what the task.  For kids sports teams, you have the tiers of talent; in business you try and hire correctly, rock bands; a professional kitchen - it's obvious after a while when someone doesn't fit.  

 

I think Mittelstadt did enough over the past week to help JBots with this decision.  It'll be a young team out there - hopefully it'll be fun to watch.  

 

I realize that others want something completely different, but this is all I want at this point, entertaining hockey.  It has to start somewhere.

Sometimes there are people at work who appear to be good at their jobs but in reality detract more than they add.

 

Hey, leave me out of this.

[LGR4GM]

Who got called a troll for suggesting the locker room had issues.

[Doohicksie]

Hoss? Makes perfect sense. :lol:

 

No, Sizzlemeister.

[shrader]

Who got called a troll for suggesting the locker room had issues.

 

Sorry, it wasn't a comment about you.

[DarthEbriate]

yes, there are alternate ways to fighting...

 

Best quote I could come up with...

Look at the size of that thing! (Berglund's term)

Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops... (Tage's role this year)

JBot is through with you! He has not time for centers who complain about losing love of the game at the first sign of an Imperial cruiser. (O'Reilly)

Your fleet is lost and your friends on the Endor moon will not survive. (Sobotka)

Here we go again. (The picks... and the general reaction)

Edited July 2, 2018 by DarthEbriate

[TrueBlueGED]

Regarding the Hall trade -- my recollection is that while there were noises from Edmonton about a shakeup, Hall wasn't openly put up for auction in the same way that ROR was, and when the trade happened, most hockey observers were somewhat blindsided.

 

There is of course no way to know for sure, but I thought the Sabres' roster last year was well above DFL level.  In the past 3 seasons, they went from 81 to 78 to 62 points.  They came out completely dead too many times to count.  Something was very wrong, and it went well beyond having a lousy roster, IMHO.

 

If they hadn't made this or a shakeup change -- which appears to have been your preference -- would you have expected better results next season?

 

 

Yes. Dahlin is an immediate upgrade in the top-4, I don't think Reinhart plays the first 3 months like an AHLer, Sheary is a nice middle-six upgrade, I think Eichel keeps getting better, and I think Mittelstadt improves the team. I also think the goaltending gets better. I don't expect it to be great, but if it just goes to league average, that's 12 fewer even strength goals allowed, which is good for a few wins. 

[Doohicksie]

Moulson is still on the books... they didn't dump him on anybody. Bogo still on the books.

 

JBOt had last summer and now this summer to find creative ways to move them.. freeing up cap space to significantly improve the bottom 6 through 2 off-seasons of free agency and trade.

 

JBOT was billed as a cap genius, but nothing he's done strikes me as very impressive.

 

The bottom 6 still suck, bad contracts are still on the books and we're down two of our top point producers. Brilliant.

 

Sometimes a contract is so bad no one else will take it.  Matty Mo is still on the Sabres books, but he no longer takes up a roster spot.  When we talk about people like Pommer and Berglund taking roster spots away, it's taking them away from younger players potentially ready to move up.  The fact that the aging contracts are on our books won't prevent an ELC player from taking the veteran's roster spot.

[Randall Flagg]

Yeah but context does matter. That's the whole reason RoR was moved in the first place. Teams aren't just a collection of talent. 

But it bothers me that this is the truth and yet it was seen as a positive by our team-builder that we acquired them. 

[shrader]

Look at the size of that thing! (Berglund's term)

Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops... (Tage's role this year)

JBot is through with you! He has not time for centers who complain about losing love of the game at the first sign of an Imperial cruiser. (O'Reilly)

Your fleet is lost and your friends on the Endor moon will not survive. (Sobotka)

Here we go again. (The picks)

 

Sometimes being a huge nerd leads to a really cool avatar.

[...]

Your subsequent points are fair and well-taken, but this one really isn't. How ROR was relied upon is a coaching choice. It didn't have to be that way merely because he exists. 

 

How do you not use a face-off specialist when you have one?  How do you not use a skilled two-way forward when you have one?  Player usage in instances like this aren't black and white matters.

 

ROR wasn't in the same category as Matty Mo, where doing whatever with him made sense.  ROR can still play.  If he can still play, then for the money he gets you put him out there.  The Sabres needed wins - he's one of the best players on the team, you play him.  What kind of lashing would Housley have received if he didn't use ROR for ROR's supposed strengths?