Trade: Ryan O'Reilly to St Louis Blues

[Randall Flagg]

Just seems very strange to me that JBot would take on contracts for players that no one else would want when trying to rebuild.  All of these players (Hunwick, Sobotka, Pominville and Berglund) cannot be in our long term plans, yet account for more than $15 million of our cap.  JBot has received very little in return for agreeing to take on these salary obligations.  Add in Bogo and Okoposo for another $11 million in cap and you have a total of six players with about $26 million in space that are untraceable.

 

I am really worried that JBot is in way over his head.

His whole thing was being a cap guru, wasn't it? It's not hurting us yet I don't think, so I won't throw it in his face, but it is hard to stomach watching every single one of those players (hopefully not Berglund, I'm going to hold out hope that Blues fans were just being frustrated and exaggerating)

[TrueBlueGED]

Don't be so quick to discount dejenneret's analysis.  He/she might not post a lot, but that was a well-thought post (not like your response wasn't; it was).  But there's a lot to unpack in there, and I think he/she may have gotten a couple of things right.

 

I'll be completely honest: I mostly stopped paying attention after the part that demonstrated a lack of understanding for how the cap works. I probably shouldn't have, but I definitely did :lol:

[dejeanerret]

Just seems very strange to me that JBot would take on contracts for players that no one else would want when trying to rebuild.  All of these players (Hunwick, Sobotka, Pominville and Berglund) cannot be in our long term plans, yet account for more than $15 million of our cap.  JBot has received very little in return for agreeing to take on these salary obligations.  Add in Bogo and Okoposo for another $11 million in cap and you have a total of six players with about $26 million in space that are untraceable.

 

I am really worried that JBot is in way over his head.

or this could be a housecleaning knowing that he has the cap space to eat dirt for a couple of years to clear out the crap and put competitive players in their place.

 

He was Rutherford's right hand man for many Stanley Cups.  I trust his judgement right now.

[Randall Flagg]

I just thought and hoped that our league-worst bottom six could have been upgraded without trading Ryan O'Reilly, and that if push came to shove and it was actually "culturally important" to trade Ryan O'Reilly, we would aim higher than actively pushing for Tage Thompson and taking cap dumps to do it. 

[dejeanerret]

They also got rid of Lehner.

 

Yup.

 

I honestly think things go on behind the scenes that us fans aren't privy too.  

 

I remember someone posting that they ran into Justin Falks parents at a resort and they said they didn't like Housley becuase he doesn't hold the stars accountable.

 

I see this as Bots moving those pieces.  The next is Larsson.  I'd be shocked if he's in a Sabres jersey next season.  I hope he plays in Europe.  Good riddin's

Edited July 2, 2018 by dejeanerret

[3putt]

Some people on this board crack me up.  

 

You act as if Bots was given a choice between Parayko, R Thomas, or Berglund and chose Berglund.  Rumors sites all week have been listing Parayko and Thomas as possible pieces. Don't you think if he could have gotten Thomas or Parayko he would have?   It's obvious that Bots did his best to include those pieces, but the Blues woudn't budge.  Even Bergevin in Montreal told the press he was out of the running for ROR, and that Bots wanted to much and to call him when he lowered his price.

 

Had Bots waited a day to pull this deal off it would have been a $15.7 million cap hit on our books vs. a $8.2 million cap hit (not including Thompson who will probably start in minors.)  The fact he got what he did with the Blues knowing that was a coup in itself.  He HAD to do a deal today.  It didn't make sense for him to pull a deal off later this summer.

 

He had to deal a player who mailed it in on many nights.  You can quote me all the defensive zone starts and analytical BS all you want.  If you have a guy that has a $7.5 mil AVV, he has to be part of the solution, not the problem. He has to be a leader, kicking guys in the butt each night saying get it together. Leading with his work ethic during games and in practice.  A guy at the end of the season like Jack saying we ARE going to fix this and I'm going to be part of the reason why.  Not moping and whining about how he lost his love for the game.

 

Instead of being that rock, he was a guy that the younger players looked at and said, "well if he can mail it in so can I".

 

Frick, he was coming off two seasons with the Avs where he averaged 22 goals and 37 assists at 24 years old and (forget about $7.5 million) the Avs didn't even want to pay him $6.2 million. Why?  Because he had fallen out of favor with the coaches.  He was soft.  They saw what we saw this season.  So they traded him to Buffalo for what ended up being not much.  

 

Sorry, but with all of his analytical BS, goals, and assists, the Sabres finished in last place. It's not like he was carrying the team on his back.  On the contrary, he was showing our youth through his work ethic that it was OK to not give it your all each and every night, even if your one of the top earners on the team. That's not acceptable in a professional sports environment, period.

 

I look at it as Bots acquired assets.  I applaud the fact that we got two 1st round picks.  Say what you want, but Thompson is an unknown, and it's not like he's 22 years old with barely a sniff of NHL experience.   He was 19 when last season started.

 

A guy like Sobotka he can play solid 3rd line center minutes and his goals and assists matched the sorry pair of Larsson and Girgensons combined minus the whining about wanting out of Buffalo from Larsson.  Berglund's goal total last season would have placed him 5th on this sorry a$$ team.

 

There is no knowing who actually will be suiting up in Buffalo come October.  There could be more moving parts and some of the guys acquired today may be gone tomorrow.  But this deal had to be done today, and Bots moved a player that he knew he had to move.  He got the most he could, and all you couch potato GM's can complain all you want.  It's all white noise.  I'll take the haul, and I'm excited about the direction of this team and the culture and players that Bots is building in the locker room.  We have some young studs, and it's only a matter of time before our core starts taking this team to the next level.

 

Anyone fed up, the Maple Leaf Bandwagon is taking applications. Get your JT jerseys while they're hot.

You lost any credibility with your first sentence. ROR ‘s cap hit is the same for the league year. The bonus meant he arned it all in one day. It didn’t double.

[Derrico]

Just seems very strange to me that JBot would take on contracts for players that no one else would want when trying to rebuild. All of these players (Hunwick, Sobotka, Pominville and Berglund) cannot be in our long term plans, yet account for more than $15 million of our cap. JBot has received very little in return for agreeing to take on these salary obligations. Add in Bogo and Okoposo for another $11 million in cap and you have a total of six players with about $26 million in space that are untraceable.

 

I am really worried that JBot is in way over his head.

As I've already pointed out, you should be removing pomiville from this calculation....

[Doohicksie]

One/two more clever moves like Sheary combined with internal usage changes gave this team a lot of potential, keeping their "speed" future in mind. Adding two lumbering cap dumps and a supposed slow prospect while removing the biggest bed of usage-shift potential improvement we had is puzzling. Mittelstadt excites the hell out of me, but he's so young and has produced nowhere to suggest he's even a lock to hit ROR's numbers someday, even though I think he will, I just don't see what is going on here.

 

I don't think the idea is that Mittelstadt will pick up the entire ROR load.  That may very well be why we got Sabotka and/or Berglund.  I expect Casey will be counted on in a primarily offensive capacity.  He may eventually be called upon to take the tough defensive minutes that ROR assumed, but I think it's more likely that Sabotka or Berglund gets those defensive zone starts and the shifts against top lines... not because they're fast enough to keep up but because they're smart and experienced enough to stay one step ahead.  (Gorges seemed like the best defensive coverage on McDavid last year if memory serves me correctly.) 

 

And even if they don't necessarily do that well shutting down top lines, let the older vets endure it.  Let Casey develop in his sheltered minutes.  Moving ROR doesn't necessarily change that; it just changes who gets that assignment, but also clears the deck more easily when Casey's ready to answer that bell.

[LTS]

You lost any credibility with your first sentence. ROR ‘s cap hit is the same for the league year. The bonus meant he arned it all in one day. It didn’t double.

 

Do you lose all credibility for referring to his first sentence when it was his second that mentioned the cap hit?

 

Just curious if these things apply equally here.

[Randall Flagg]

I don't think the idea is that Mittelstadt will pick up the entire ROR load.  That may very well be why we got Sabotka and/or Berglund.  I expect Casey will be counted on in a primarily offensive capacity.  He may eventually be called upon to take the tough defensive minutes that ROR assumed, but I think it's more likely that Sabotka or Berglund gets those defensive zone starts and the shifts against top lines... not because they're fast enough to keep up but because they're smart and experienced enough to stay one step ahead.  (Gorges seemed like the best defensive coverage on McDavid last year if memory serves me correctly.) 

 

And even if they don't necessarily do that well shutting down top lines, let the older vets endure it.  Let Casey develop in his sheltered minutes.  Moving ROR doesn't necessarily change that; it just changes who gets that assignment, but also clears the deck more easily when Casey's ready to answer that bell.

Oh yeah, I just mean to rely on him as a legitimately good, ice-tilting NHLer right now. Reinhart and ROR are the only Sabres who actually tilted the ice this year possession-wise, and nobody did goal-wise. It would be rude to ask of Casey something Jack is only just getting ready to do (playing 82 games would have done it, he was trending that way around the injury). 

 

If any hockey player has ROR's exact role again and is capable of more than 25 NHL points I will break things. 

[Sabel79]

Clarifying that was dealing with Victor's lack of language somehow to get him in the lineup when he was one of the only D who could flip the ice, finding the situation for his skill rather than jamming a system and changing rosters to do so like schmucks do, and then having a problem with ROR off-ice, whatever it may be, while actively doing those things I just described. If you have to move Ryan, you shouldn't needlessly adhere to a suspect methodology that is achieving you nothing but last place.

But what if, and I’m just spitballing here, adding four examples of actual NHL talent to the bottom 6 at the cost of one ROR (we really still don’t know what the team looks like opening night) makes the team better? We can complain that the haul didn’t give us anybody better but... maybe spreading competency further down the lineup does us a favor?

[dejeanerret]

I just thought and hoped that our league-worst bottom six could have been upgraded without trading Ryan O'Reilly, and that if push came to shove and it was actually "culturally important" to trade Ryan O'Reilly, we would aim higher than actively pushing for Tage Thompson and taking cap dumps to do it. 

 

Who is saying actively pushed for Tage Thompson?  He may have been pushing for Thomas or Parayko and the Blues wouldn't budge.

 

I get it though.  I would have loved to hear Parayko's name.  But I honestly believe Bots did the best he could, and to grill him otherwise isn't right.  The keys to this are the two first round picks.  Sobotka and Berglund are additional assets that are still productive NHL players and are better than the crap we have floating around our bottom six.

[3putt]

Do you lose all credibility for referring to his first sentence when it was his second that mentioned the cap hit?

 

Just curious if these things apply equally here.

They do. Phone running out of juice couldn’t scroll back to the top.

[Eleven]

You lost any credibility with your first sentence. ROR ‘s cap hit is the same for the league year. The bonus meant he arned it all in one day. It didn’t double.

 

What first sentence?  "You guys crack me up..."?

 

Or do you mean the third paragraph?  

 

And you want to criticize that poster's credibility?

 

You are correct on the cap hit thing, but if you want to get picky with people, well...

Edited July 2, 2018 by Eleven

[3putt]

What first sentence?  "You guys crack me up..."?

 

Or do you mean the third paragraph?  

 

And you want to criticize that poster's credibility?

 

You are correct on the cap hit thing, but if you want to get picky with people, well...

See above.

[dejeanerret]

You lost any credibility with your first sentence. ROR ‘s cap hit is the same for the league year. The bonus meant he arned it all in one day. It didn’t double.

 

yeah were past that.  Whether it's a cap hit or paying $7.5 million cash for a player that is on another teams roster makes no sense, which is why Bots said the anti would go up after tonight.  If that's all you got out of the post then I can't help you.

Edited July 2, 2018 by dejeanerret

[Randall Flagg]

But what if, and I’m just spitballing here, adding four examples of actual NHL talent to the bottom 6 at the cost of one ROR (we really still don’t know what the team looks like opening night) makes the team better? We can complain that the haul didn’t give us anybody better but... maybe spreading competency further down the lineup does us a favor?

We had the league's worst bottom 6, so yes, Berglund will make it better if strictly used as a 3W or in an ideal world a 4C (you know Phil will staple him to Eichel regardless of how much of a drag it is, he did the same thing with Jason for the odd goal every 4 games). Sobotka could but he's apparently fallen off the age cliff so I'm not counting on it. Tage gives you Zemgus-offense (see his thread) and whatever defense you'd expect from a hockey prospect, and we traded someone whose whole package can be argued to be our best player to get this upgrade, when just beating Montreal's offer for Armia gets you a better bottom 6 upgrade than the combined, because he's actively good and actively drives play, and not just a warm body past their prime, with less as far as contract troubles go (4 years! 4!!) 

 

This avenue is objectively suspect. I'm not saying it won't work out but giving a blind pass due to the authority Botts has wrt me (and I'm not saying that's what you're doing) stopped working for me after watching Ron Rolston roll through this organization.

[Two or less]

I like this trade a lot to be honest. Thompson to me is a very intriguing player. I wanted Thomas or Kyrou more, but neither of them are a sure thing anyways. The Blues actually traded up to trade Thompson 26th overall in 2016, and then selected Kyrou with the 35th pick. They were very high on Thompson too.

 

I like Berglund and Sobotka as well. I think Berglund will be one of the more popular players in Buffalo as long as he doesn't go full out Moulson and completely stops skating or scoring goals. He is a teammates best friend, great guy in the locker room and a very great off the ice guy. He's a guy that Buffalo can love. Sobotka is a good energy guy, solid speed, good face offs and occasional goal scorer. Someone wrote we're taking on guys that nobody wants but he's a pretty decent bottom six guy. Theres probably a lot of good bottom six guys in the NHL but our bottom six has been one of the leagues worst for years so, adding him will help.

 

I can't imagine the moves are done, though. Botterill said multiple times they want to add speed to the lineup and i think we're still far away from accomplishing that.

 

But overall, thumbs up to Botterill and his team of scouts.

[dejeanerret]

I think they can absorb it!

You are correct sir.

[3putt]

yeah were past that.  Whether it's a cap hit or paying $7.5 million cash for a player that is on another teams roster makes no sense.  If that's all you got out of the post then I can't help you.

No you probably can’t. The issue I have with the trade and more deeply the Sabres is more rooted in the people being hired to run the show. There seems to be a common theme at both the bills and sabres about having the right people. That may be fine in other endeavors but sport is largely about talent. Some times the most talented aren’t the best people. The deadline to trade ROR was largely artificial. They could have waited a day and other teams who may not have the cash resources could have been brought into play. But the focus should have been on the return. It didn’t need to be the Lindros trade, having watched Berglund and Sobotka get caved for the last 4 years doesn’t seem to be a return that helps us get out of the basement. I am tired of rooting for the draft at Thanksgiving.

[Randall Flagg]

No you probably can’t. The issue I have with the trade and more deeply the Sabres is more rooted in the people being hired to run the show. There seems to be a common theme at both the bills and sabres about having the right people. That may be fine in other endeavors but sport is largely about talent. Some times the most talented aren’t the best people. The deadline to trade ROR was largely artificial. They could have waited a day and other teams who may not have the cash resources could have been brought into play. But the focus should have been on the return. It didn’t need to be the Lindros trade, having watched Berglund and Sobotka get caved for the last 4 years doesn’t seem to be a return that helps us get out of the basement. I am tired of rooting for the draft at Thanksgiving.

This is the big divide I'm seeing. People happy with the trade expect good things here. People I've read the past year as they watch these guys in real time make me think we got hosed. I didn't do either so I can't be certain but I'm inclined to trust a Blues fan's hatred of those guys as much as I trust mine of Jason Pominville.

[Eleven]

See above.

 

I did.  That was my point.  YOU see above.

 

Anyway.  Is tonight the night that no Sabres fan sleeps?

[Derrico]

I did. That was my point. YOU see above.

 

Anyway. Is tonight the night that no Sabres fan sleeps?

This we can all agree on lol.

[pi2000]

When Pegula took over, the team was perpetually on the playoffs bubble. Perpetually drafting in the middle of round 1, with no star players to build around. His directive was to build a team that contends year in and year out FOR THE CUP.. and he said "if you want to watch the Sydney Crosby's you have to get the Sydney Crosby's."

 

Enter Tim Murray and the tank wars. Draft Eichel and Reinhart, trade for O'Reilly... this team was set down the middle for the next decade, which is something ALL Championship teams have in common.

 

Fast forward to today.... JBOTs trades away one of the best 2way centers in the game for bag of turds. This was a last place team WITH O'Reilly, it will be a last place team without him.

 

O'Reilly wasn't holding this team back. Larsson, Girgensons, Pouliot, Josefson, Bogo, etc... those are the guys that need to be replaced NOT the second best player on your roster. Those bottom sixers could've been replaced last season, if not last summer, then at the deadline for a late round pick or whatever... thats how you change the culture. Move out the guys that have been poisoned by the tank and let them start fresh elsewhere.

 

I feel sick about this O'Reilly trade. This puts BUF back to where they were before the tank.... with the likes of Larsson, Girgensons, Bogosian still poisoning the bench, etc.

[Sabel79]

We had the league's worst bottom 6, so yes, Berglund will make it better if strictly used as a 3W or in an ideal world a 4C (you know Phil will staple him to Eichel regardless of how much of a drag it is, he did the same thing with Jason for the odd goal every 4 games). Sobotka could but he's apparently fallen off the age cliff so I'm not counting on it. Tage gives you Zemgus-offense (see his thread) and whatever defense you'd expect from a hockey prospect, and we traded someone whose whole package can be argued to be our best player to get this upgrade, when just beating Montreal's offer for Armia gets you a better bottom 6 upgrade than the combined, because he's actively good and actively drives play, and not just a warm body past their prime, with less as far as contract troubles go (4 years! 4!!) 

 

This avenue is objectively suspect. I'm not saying it won't work out but giving a blind pass due to the authority Botts has wrt me (and I'm not saying that's what you're doing) stopped working for me after watching Ron Rolston roll through this organization.

First of all, shake the roster up enough and I know nothing about who Phil staples to who. Second of all, the idea has to be ROR suffered because there was literally nobody else to do the work. Any other line, or indeed any other center meant chaos. And, frankly, there was a fair amount of chaos with ROR on the ice. Why not spread what talent is available around. Place fewer players in impossible positions...?