Trade: Ryan O'Reilly to St Louis Blues

[7+6=13]

Based on what? This the weirdest take on this whole trade. The issue isn’t who is the problem the issue is the solution didn’t make the team better. Say it was Jack and they traded him for this “haul”. Is the team better? No. GM Bobblehead didn’t get assets back to make this team better today. Maybe he trades picks or whatever or gets lucky in the draft. Great. But trading an asset like ROR should get back quality not quantity. Winnipeg is looking for a center, what about Ehlers straight up? That helps us today. The only thing I am certain of in this deal,is that Bobblehead felt he had to move him. Why? I have no idea. And frankly I don’t care. But to panic because of some facetious deadline about the bonus and garner a return that doesn’t help today is ludicrous.

 

If ROR orchestrated this, then even less reason to accomodate him. Sakic waited out he market on Duchesne and got twice the haul as part of the solution.

 

We shouldn't be doing things to get better today.  It's all about tomorrow because that's where we are as an organization.  Our best players will be great tomorrow not today.  Eichel is ready now and I hate that he has to wait but the vets on this team grossly let him down.  

[TrueBlueGED]

I really don't like that we are now penciling in a guy with 6 NHL games to be our 2C and a stud for us. It might be true and everything works out and he becomes the first Sabre in a long time to put up 70 points, and when Eichel is injured for 20+ games again he steps up to the 1C...

 

But it feels like nothing has changed in 5 years. We are rushing our prospects into positions to fail in. Vanek played on the third line his rookie season and it worked very very well

 

I definitely don't expect 70 points out of Mittelstadt this season. But I absolutely think he's going to be an all-star level player (if we're ever good enough to have more than the mandatory 1 player sent to the game) in a few years.

Edited July 2, 2018 by TrueBlueGED

[shrader]

You're coming dangerously close to a Pi-level line of thought here :p

 

Anyway, I think every athlete is a me-first guy when it comes to contracts. And I don't begrudge them that at all. I admire those who take discounts to help the team, but by no means should it be the expectation, nor should we infer that those who want to maximize their value are inherently bad teammates.

Not to many in the NHL take it to the point of a hold out though. I can understand why someone might have some red flags for him. Hold out may not be the proper term for that whole fiasco coming out of the lockout, but it was definitely unique.

[GASabresIUFAN]

So we trade a 1C for two 3rd liners in their 30s, a low first, low second and a B grade prospect.

 

Pominville, Moulson, 1st, 2nd and Pu for McDavid?

 

Man I despise this return. I hope Armstrong at least used lube.

 

Well Eichel, this is your team now. Let's see if you have any desire to play defense, as you now have no help for those tough minutes.

 

JBot... you are on the clock. This is your team now, and you only have a 18.5% shot at Hughes.

 

For once can we get a GM who doesn't just throw away our assets for free? Who would have thought the best GM by a country mile in the last decade as Regier

I bitched about the Kane deal and people here told me to relax and see how it plays out after it was “the only offer” we got. Fortunately for us long-term Kane re-signed and the 2nd became a 1st. Right now we don’t know what we got. Yes we gave up the best player. However we also might have moved out a huge lockerroom problem. We also don’t know what Thompson is at this point. He is 20 and only has 1 pro season under his belt. We also have no idea where the 1st will be. Frankly Stl is on the decline. Odd favors a more reasonable 12-18 type choice. The NYI got wahlstrom and Dobson at 11 and 12 this year.

 

Also our bottom 6 was the worst in the NHL last year. Almost zero production. Sobotka and Berglund will help there. Both are also excellent in the faceoff circle. Other the ROR, who could the Sabres trust last season to win a draw. We also have to take into account Berglund helping fellow Swede Dahlin adjust to NHL hockey. Furthermore, we have no idea what Jbot is going to do next. I doubt guys like Larsson, Girgensons and some other are part of this team come October.

 

Oh yeah, no way ROR is a 1C on a good team. He really wasn’t here on a terrible team.

Edited July 2, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[Trettioåtta]

We shouldn't be doing things to get better today.  It's all about tomorrow because that's where we are as an organization.  Our best players will be great tomorrow not today.  Eichel is ready now and I hate that he has to wait but the vets on this team grossly let him down.  

 

When he scores more than a PPG and plays more than 70 games and actually earns his contract, then I will pity Eichel

[Darryl Shannon's +/-]

I'm absolutely picking Eichel over O'Reilly as well. I just quibble with the notion it was an either-or proposition while suggesting that if it had to be an either-or proposition, that probably doesn't speak well of leadership of the guy who remains.

For a really young leader, if he made mistakes in the past a clean slate (though maybe not deserved) might be best for all parties.

 

I could absolutely see a locker room dynamic significantly altered by a move like this.

[TrueBlueGED]

Not to many in the NHL take it to the point of a hold out though. I can understand why someone might have some red flags for him. Hold out may not be the proper term for that whole fiasco coming out of the lockout, but it was definitely unique.

 

Personally, I think the very notion of flagging somebody for signing an offer sheet is a problem. I totally get that it's unique and its uniqueness may raise an eyebrow, but I think that's more of a systemic thing than an individual player thing. Did anyone ever call Shea Weber a me-first guy for signing the Philly offer sheet? Or question his locker room presence as a result?

 

I'm always fascinated by how some players get stuck with a label, while others do the same thing, and escape it. 

[LTS]

I feel like some people on here would blast the reigning world Grand Champion Chess Master for moving his pawn to start the game.

 

There's a truly sick and twisted side of me that wants all the overexaggerated takes on here to be true.  It's a small part of me, but I can't help but wonder just how far it could go. 

 

 

Tomorrow I am going to practice yelling at paint for not drying fast enough.  I feel it's the only way I can build my skills.

[Doohicksie]

The others who had the A are still here, though. If one guy was that big of an influence, does it really speak well to the others who wore the letters? Put differently, is somebody who has to be told "it's your turn" to lead much of a leader? Don't true leaders grab the bull by the horns?

 

Maybe they tried but were overruled by the old, more experienced A in the room.  That A is gone, which sends a message. 

[Derrico]

Minny did buy him out. Frankly, I view that trade as Scandella for Foligno, as Ennis and Pominville are a wash for terribleness. If we needed the cap space, I suspect Pominville might also have been bought out.

Agreed. My point is several posters have included pomiville as a bad contract botts took on. Well sure, technically, but we basically just swapped him out for another terrible contract.

[TrueBlueGED]

For a really young leader, if he made mistakes in the past a clean slate (though maybe not deserved) might be best for all parties.

 

I could absolutely see a locker room dynamic significantly altered by a move like this.

 

I think that's a given. Where I conflict with other people is with respect to how that dynamic manifests itself on the ice. I don't even disagree that the locker room last year was a tire fire. I suspect it was. I also suspect it's that way for any team that finishes with fewer than 60 points. Many people think the locker room contributed to that record. I think the causality is reversed: the terrible team led to a dysfunctional locker room. It's a debate that I doubt goes away any time soon.

[Eleven]

Now we're on 16 pages and I certainly can't read all of them.  I really think everyone needs to relax, take a look at this tomorrow, and see if the Sabres got value.  I think they may have done so.  Three roster players and two picks isn't horrible.  It might immediately shore up the Sabres' bottom six, which REALLY needed it, and the Sabs now have three (maybe two*) first-round picks next year.  Think it through.

 

 

 

*SJ will make the playoffs.  But in that rough Central Division, Saint Louis might not.

[TrueBlueGED]

Agreed. My point is several posters have included pomiville as a bad contract botts took on. Well sure, technically, but we basically just swapped him out for another terrible contract.

 

Aaaaahhhh gotcha. Definitely missed your point there. 

[shrader]

Personally, I think the very notion of flagging somebody for signing an offer sheet is a problem. I totally get that it's unique and its uniqueness may raise an eyebrow, but I think that's more of a systemic thing than an individual player thing. Did anyone ever call Shea Weber a me-first guy for signing the Philly offer sheet? Or question his locker room presence as a result?

 

I'm always fascinated by how some players get stuck with a label, while others do the same thing, and escape it.

No it’s not the offer sheet alone, it’s also the timing. He stuck around in Russia while the rest of the league returned from the lockout. The whole thing was odd.

 

On a side note, I really wish that Colorado hadn’t matched it and then Calgary would have lost him anyway to waivers.

[TrueBlueGED]

Now we're on 16 pages and I certainly can't read all of them.  I really think everyone needs to relax, take a look at this tomorrow, and see if the Sabres got value.  I think they may have done so.  Three roster players and two picks isn't horrible.  It might immediately shore up the Sabres' bottom six, which REALLY needed it, and the Sabs now have three (maybe two*) first-round picks next year.  Think it through.

 

 

 

*SJ will make the playoffs.  But in that rough Central Division, Saint Louis might not.

 

It did shore up the bottom six, insofar as it upgraded it.. It just did so while also blowing a giant hole in the top-6. Not great.

No it’s not the offer sheet alone, it’s also the timing. He stuck around in Russia while the rest of the league returned from the lockout. The whole thing was odd.

 

On a side note, I really wish that Colorado hadn’t matched it and then Calgary would have lost him anyway to waivers.

 

I definitely forgot about the Russia thing. I suspect he was acting on his agent's advice, but who knows. On the second point, we definitely agree. That would've been freaking hilarious.

Edited July 2, 2018 by TrueBlueGED

[Derrico]

I'm absolutely picking Eichel over O'Reilly as well. I just quibble with the notion it was an either-or proposition while suggesting that if it had to be an either-or proposition, that probably doesn't speak well of leadership of the guy who remains.

I don't always take Paul Hamilton seriously but he's been quoted as saying Eichel has no problem with ROR but ROR has a problem with Eichel. Could be a scenario ROR just wanted out.

[Randall Flagg]

So little of what you’re describing is Botterill though. He’s been on the job one year now. Are you counting anything beyond Kane-O’Reilly to that bad asset management? Yeah, I realize those are two big fish right there if you are in fact right, but I’m trying to get a feel for anything else you might be talking about.

 

What’s becoming very obvious is that this team is coming dangerously close to bills territory where the actions of each GM can easily wind up being lumped together into one giant ball of crap... the new guy automatically gets lumped in with his predecessors

My problems with Botterill are well-defined, don't worry. They start with Phil, whose dubious resume had me questioning the hire from day 1. Our two key weaknesses got worse (no, I'm not harping on him for replacing Nilsson with Johnson, but it's not a positive checkmark either) and most importantly, we watched the departure of our 3rd line, widely known in these parts to have absurdly good ES scoring compared to our stars accounting for the minutes they got get "replaced" with waiver fodder (17, 25) and buyout trash (67) and the result was pacing for nearly 30 goals fewer from our depth the entire season, tracked with dismay by yours truly. We finished with fewer points from non-top-6 scoring forwards than any other team in the league, and it was something that a bunch of us were yelling at Jason about last summer. Then, as I've outlined with the ROR saga and how Jason's coach handled it, loads of tiny missteps that don't mean much in the grand scheme of things but suggest lack of asset maximization or complete control and understanding of on and off-ice situations (Antipin) right up to the return we got on artificially suppressed value, and you start to ask questions that don't even require looking at the massive standings cliff we jumped off of under his watch.

[3putt]

We shouldn't be doing things to get better today.  It's all about tomorrow because that's where we are as an organization.  Our best players will be great tomorrow not today.  Eichel is ready now and I hate that he has to wait but the vets on this team grossly let him down.

 

There is no reason we have tomwait for tomorrow. None at all. Good managment doesn’t wait they do everything they can to be competitive in the moment. Dahlin isn’t tomorrow he is here today. Same with Casey. Make the team, talent wise better today. That is Bobbleheads job.

 

I will hope that more trades are coming. Flip these picksmto TB for Johnson or to Ott for Stone but there is no reason we should be setting the bar low today. That ship has sailed.

[Derrico]

I think that's a given. Where I conflict with other people is with respect to how that dynamic manifests itself on the ice. I don't even disagree that the locker room last year was a tire fire. I suspect it was. I also suspect it's that way for any team that finishes with fewer than 60 points. Many people think the locker room contributed to that record. I think the causality is reversed: the terrible team led to a dysfunctional locker room. It's a debate that I doubt goes away any time soon.

This is a good take and could be just as likely. I just think on paper that team should be more than a 60 point team.

[Trettioåtta]

Who is the next problem in the Sabres locker room?

 

We got rid of Kane, and now ROR. Who is next on the list? Maybe Reinhart?

[TXSabresFan]

I’m a pretty new hockey fan and am still learning the ins and outs of it. The situation the Sabres are in right now is eerily familiar to another team I’m a fan of. I’ve lived in Houston my entire life and have been a lifelong Astros fan. It’s well known by now that the Astros purposely stripped down the team, built through the draft and shrewd acquisitions and endured several years of bad baseball. They had a painful history very similar to that of the Sabres and fans were rightfully upset with the fact that the new GM and new ownership were purposefully stripping the team down and rebuilding. There were great draft picks that have become the foundation of the Astros 2017 Championship team and their future. For the Sabres that can very well be Eichel, Reinhart if he puts it all together, Dahlin, Mittelstadt and whoever they get with their 1st round picks next year. There were plenty of times where the Astros traded some of the most promising and talented players on an otherwise awful team. They knew that they needed to rebuild from the ground up and that those players weren’t going to be around by the time the team was actually ready to compete. Fans weren’t always happy with the returns of those trades. Heck, several of those trades didn’t necessarily materialize the way that management would have liked. I guess what I’m trying to get at is that there was all the reason in the world to disagree with some of the moves they made, but in the end, their decision to strip it down and build a great locker room culture paid off in a big way. They wouldn’t have won the World Series if it weren’t for the decision to be a cheap team for several seasons. I don’t see any reason why that can’t work for the Sabres. Eichel, Reinhart, Dahlin, Mittelstadt, Guhle and Co. can very well be the future Altuve’s, Correa’s, Springer’s and Bregman’s so to speak. Not all rebuilds go according to plan. From what I can tell there’s been multiple failed “rebuild” attempts in Buffalo over the past decade. But maybe this will finally be the one that changes the history of the franchise.

[Doohicksie]

I don't always take Paul Hamilton seriously but he's been quoted as saying Eichel has no problem with ROR but ROR has a problem with Eichel. Could be a scenario ROR just wanted out.

 

Sounds plausible.  Part of the reason he wanted out of CO was that he wanted to be *the* leader.  Well he didn't get that here either.

[Sabel79]

Then, as I've outlined with the ROR saga and how Jason's coach handled it, loads of tiny missteps that don't mean much in the grand scheme of things but suggest lack of asset maximization or complete control and understanding of on and off-ice situations (Antipin) right up to the return we got on artificially suppressed value, and you start to ask questions that don't even require looking at the massive standings cliff we jumped off of under his watch.

You are assuming so much about things based upon facts you can not possibly know with this.

[Randall Flagg]

Who is the next problem in the Sabres locker room?

 

We got rid of Kane, and now ROR. Who is next on the list? Maybe Reinhart?

I think Kane and Lehner were the big ones, closely followed by ROR, whose "problem" was less-known, defined, and certain. 

 

Then you have the party kids who hopefully grow out of it, Jack and Reino. Then, Risto, nobody knows what his problem is but somebody said once he might not listen to coach. 

 

But really, if we were competent at team-building, this stuff has a remarkable ability of smoothing over during not-disgusting seasons

[Eleven]

It did shore up the bottom six, insofar as it upgraded it.. It just did so while also blowing a giant hole in the top-6. Not great.

 

 

Maybe Botterill thinks that Reinhart or Mittlestadt is ready.  Maybe he's right, and maybe he's wrong.  And a center came back in the trade, too.

 

Who is the next problem in the Sabres locker room?

 

We got rid of Kane, and now ROR. Who is next on the list? Maybe Reinhart?

 

I don't think there are dressing room problems.  And even if there are, it's time for EIchel to put up or shut up, and close the problems down.