The Expansion Draft Revisted

[Iron Crotch]

Clearly an expansion draft hurts stronger teams more than weaker teams. Nashville has 4 excellent defensemen they had to protect, so they could only protect 4 forwards. On a really deep team that is a killer. They protected Calle Jarnkrok since his is a young center and top penalty killer with a good contract... so they lost a 30 goal winger in James Neal. Then they ended up landing Kyle Turris and Nick Bonino. Had they know that they probably would have let Jarnkrok walk and protected Neal. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Drunkard]

I think we're talking past each other. My take is, Vegas had a shopping list. If the name wasn't on the list, the sweetener didn't matter. We weren't moving those guys to Vegas.

We definitely see it differently. He may have had a shopping list but they were at least open to taking whomever other teams wanted as long as the price was right.

 

I can't copy/paste on my phone but the 4th paragraph from this link said it flat out.

 

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/19256694/vegas-golden-knights-open-making-deals-expansion-draft

 

I feel like it was a missed opportunity. But either way it's spilled milk. The dirt cheap years of Eichel and Reinhart are over and we'll start burning up the cheap years for Mittelstadt and Dahlin this season. Tick tock.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Alkoholist

[nfreeman]

We definitely see it differently. He may have had a shopping list but they were at least open to taking whomever other teams wanted as long as the price was right.

 

I can't copy/paste on my phone but the 4th paragraph from this link said it flat out.

 

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/19256694/vegas-golden-knights-open-making-deals-expansion-draft

 

I feel like it was a missed opportunity. But either way it's spilled milk. The dirt cheap years of Eichel and Reinhart are over and we'll start burning up the cheap years for Mittelstadt and Dahlin this season. Tick tock.

You keep saying JBott missed an opportunity like it’s a fact. As if paying Vegas to take Moulson or Bogo never occurred to him, despite him being an NHL GM and literally the entire hockey world acutely interested in which teams were going to be able to make exactly that kind of deal.

 

Do you not think JBott asked McPhee about this? It’s almost certain that he did and the price was too high.

[Sabel79]

You keep saying JBott missed an opportunity like it’s a fact. As if paying Vegas to take Moulson or Bogo never occurred to him, despite him being an NHL GM and literally the entire hockey world acutely interested in which teams were going to be able to make exactly that kind of deal.

Do you not think JBott asked McPhee about this? It’s almost certain that he did and the price was too high.

It's worth noting that XGMTM screwed JBOTS (or whomever) so hard with his "Jobs for the boys" strategy so hard that initial struggle was inevitable. He's dealing with other teams from a position of weakness off the bat. This can not be discounted.

 

 

I'ma leave the duplicate "so hard" in there for emphasis.

[Brawndo]

George McPhee is Mrs Moulson’s Godfather and the Moulson’s Son George is named after him. The was a report circulating on Twitter around the expansion draft that Moulson was asked if he wanted a fresh start in Vegas and he said no, he did not want to uproot his family. ( Oops) McPhee obviously respected this wish.

 

On a side note the Moulson’s Sold their Amherst Home today. Will he be bought out or loaned to Ontario again?

[Drunkard]

You keep saying JBott missed an opportunity like it’s a fact. As if paying Vegas to take Moulson or Bogo never occurred to him, despite him being an NHL GM and literally the entire hockey world acutely interested in which teams were going to be able to make exactly that kind of deal.

 

Do you not think JBott asked McPhee about this? It’s almost certain that he did and the price was too high.

I'm sure they did discuss it and Botteril balked at the price and opted for the smaller deal instead of protecting Ullmark and going with the clean slate for everyone left. There was opportunity to unload some dead wood though, it just means Botterill wasn't willing to pay the price.

 

I can be disappointed in the final outcome without having all the facts in the same way others who also don't have all the facts can defend it. If the price was too high to move a particular player there were no shortage of other bad contracts to attempt to move and I would assume, based on all the other deals they made, that there was a sliding scale depending on the dump.

 

They may have demanded a 1st and 2nd to take Bogosians 3 years (which even I would pass on) but only required a second to take Gorges single year. We'll never know for sure but we do know that the Sabres spent about $15 million in cap space (around 20% of the total) this season on Moulson, Bogosian, and Gorges who all combined to play 66 games for a whopping 3 points. That's a huge part of why this team sucked despite getting great value for the ELC's of both Eichel and Reinhart.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Alkoholist

[Sabel79]

George McPhee is Mrs Moulson’s Godfather and the Moulson’s Son George is named after him. The was a report circulating on Twitter around the expansion draft that Moulson was asked if he wanted a fresh start in Vegas and he said no, he did not want to uproot his family. ( Oops) McPhee obviously respected this wish.

On a side note the Moulson’s Sold their Amherst Home today. Will he be bought out or loaned to Ontario again?

Buying Moulson out now actually costs money on the cap as opposed to leaving him buried this coming season. His actual salary as opposed to his cap hit makes me wonder if Arizona might nibble... otherwise, leave him in the AHL.

[Randall Flagg]

You keep saying JBott missed an opportunity like it’s a fact. As if paying Vegas to take Moulson or Bogo never occurred to him, despite him being an NHL GM and literally the entire hockey world acutely interested in which teams were going to be able to make exactly that kind of deal.

 

Do you not think JBott asked McPhee about this? It’s almost certain that he did and the price was too high.

Psh, this is the GM who had no interest in trying to get anything for Kane and just randomly decided to take a bad offer, duh. Why would that occur to him?

[Drunkard]

Psh, this is the GM who had no interest in trying to get anything for Kane and just randomly decided to take a bad offer, duh. Why would that occur to him?

This is twisting my previous statements into a pretzel. I never said he just decided to just take a bad offer. I said he set the price too high earlier on in the season and it's possible that his 4 pieces demand that had to include a first round pick may have caused some teams to look elsewhere. Sometimes one good piece is better than 4 smaller ones and by the time he came down from his ridiculous demand for a rental winger Kane was no longer producing at a ppg clip and the San Jose offer was the only serious offer left on the table.

[nfreeman]

I'm sure they did discuss it and Botteril balked at the price and opted for the smaller deal instead of protecting Ullmark and going with the clean slate for everyone left. There was opportunity to unload some dead wood though, it just means Botterill wasn't willing to pay the price.

 

I can be disappointed in the final outcome without having all the facts in the same way others who also don't have all the facts can defend it. If the price was too high to move a particular player there were no shortage of other bad contracts to attempt to move and I would assume, based on all the other deals they made, that there was a sliding scale depending on the dump.

 

They may have demanded a 1st and 2nd to take Bogosians 3 years (which even I would pass on) but only required a second to take Gorges single year. We'll never know for sure but we do know that the Sabres spent about $15 million in cap space (around 20% of the total) this season on Moulson, Bogosian, and Gorges who all combined to play 66 games for a whopping 3 points. That's a huge part of why this team sucked despite getting great value for the ELC's of both Eichel and Reinhart.

But saying that JBott missed an opportunity means that the price wasn’t too high — ie if the price was too high, it wasn’t an opportunity.

 

If the price to acquire Karlsson from Ottawa this summer is Eichel, Dahlin and Mittelstadt, is JBott missing an opportunity to get Karlsson if he says no?

[LGR4GM]

I'm sure they did discuss it and Botteril balked at the price and opted for the smaller deal instead of protecting Ullmark and going with the clean slate for everyone left. There was opportunity to unload some dead wood though, it just means Botterill wasn't willing to pay the price.

 

I can be disappointed in the final outcome without having all the facts in the same way others who also don't have all the facts can defend it. If the price was too high to move a particular player there were no shortage of other bad contracts to attempt to move and I would assume, based on all the other deals they made, that there was a sliding scale depending on the dump.

 

They may have demanded a 1st and 2nd to take Bogosians 3 years (which even I would pass on) but only required a second to take Gorges single year. We'll never know for sure but we do know that the Sabres spent about $15 million in cap space (around 20% of the total) this season on Moulson, Bogosian, and Gorges who all combined to play 66 games for a whopping 3 points. That's a huge part of why this team sucked despite getting great value for the ELC's of both Eichel and Reinhart.

This number is inaccurate. Well technically true the Sabres could exceed the cap each game bogo did not play by $62,717 because he was on LTIR. So well technically that did take up that cap space, we had additional capspace due to Bogo being injured.

 

I would not have given any picks to clear Gorges off the team for 1 year. This team has a serious lack of depth at every position except maybe center. That 2nd round pick is more valuable than have 1 less year of Gorges, especially when the Sabres didn't need the cap room this season. 

[LGR4GM]

The Sabres currently have 55million against the cap and roughly 24million in space depending on the new limit. There are 13 players under contract on the NHL roster. there are 32 player contracts.  I would guess that at least 2 players in that 13 are traded this offseason. Botterill survived the worst year as far as our cap goes. It gets better every year going forward now. 

[LTS]

Why should I care about any of this? Actually nevermind. I will be nothing but supportive of my hockey fan brethren from all other teams (even the Bruins because gosh golly, they deserve to be happy, too) and I'm truly sorry for my micro agressions.

 

You don't have to care at all.  It's your choice, it always is.

 

I think the point you are missing is that there's a world of difference between a little good-natured ribbing and being a complete jackhole.  Being happy for someone doesn't have to equate to you throwing them a party.  I have friends who are fans of other teams I personally can't stand but when their teams win I don't go up to them and tell them to F off.  

 

Are all your friends only fans of the team you root for?  Do you not have friends who root for another team?  I despise the Bruins but I was happy for friends of mine from Boston who got to celebrate their winning.  

 

From the way you are coming across, at least to me, you'd punch your friend in the face for being happy about his team winning and telling you about it.  If that's how you want to be perceived then congratulations, you've succeeded.

 

 

[nfreeman]

I would not have given any picks to clear Gorges off the team for 1 year. This team has a serious lack of depth at every position except maybe center. That 2nd round pick is more valuable than have 1 less year of Gorges, especially when the Sabres didn't need the cap room this season. 

 

Exactly.  And once the price drops below a 2nd, McPhee probably has no interest in taking a lower pick plus Gorges -- he'd rather have Carrier.

 

 

You don't have to care at all.  It's your choice, it always is.

 

I think the point you are missing is that there's a world of difference between a little good-natured ribbing and being a complete jackhole.  Being happy for someone doesn't have to equate to you throwing them a party.  I have friends who are fans of other teams I personally can't stand but when their teams win I don't go up to them and tell them to F off.  

 

Are all your friends only fans of the team you root for?  Do you not have friends who root for another team?  I despise the Bruins but I was happy for friends of mine from Boston who got to celebrate their winning.  

 

From the way you are coming across, at least to me, you'd punch your friend in the face for being happy about his team winning and telling you about it.  If that's how you want to be perceived then congratulations, you've succeeded.

 

 

 

Boom!

[SwampD]

You guys make me giggle.

[Radar]

You don't have to care at all.  It's your choice, it always is.

 

I think the point you are missing is that there's a world of difference between a little good-natured ribbing and being a complete jackhole.  Being happy for someone doesn't have to equate to you throwing them a party.  I have friends who are fans of other teams I personally can't stand but when their teams win I don't go up to them and tell them to F off.  

 

Are all your friends only fans of the team you root for?  Do you not have friends who root for another team?  I despise the Bruins but I was happy for friends of mine from Boston who got to celebrate their winning.  

 

From the way you are coming across, at least to me, you'd punch your friend in the face for being happy about his team winning and telling you about it.  If that's how you want to be perceived then congratulations, you've succeeded.

 

I amen this. Thank you!!

[Drunkard]

The Sabres currently have 55million against the cap and roughly 24million in space depending on the new limit. There are 13 players under contract on the NHL roster. there are 32 player contracts. I would guess that at least 2 players in that 13 are traded this offseason. Botterill survived the worst year as far as our cap goes. It gets better every year going forward now.

We've been basically the worst team in the league almost every season over the last half decade. Biding our time and idly waiting for these bad contract to lapse over time just perpetuates the losing. Waiting 2 more seasons to replace Bogosian essentially wastes 2/3 of Mittelstadt's and Dahlin's ELC. If that how GMJB chooses to play it that's his perogative but I see it as a waste.

[nfreeman]

We've been basically the worst team in the league almost every season over the last half decade. Biding our time and idly waiting for these bad contract to lapse over time just perpetuates the losing. Waiting 2 more seasons to replace Bogosian essentially wastes 2/3 of Mittelstadt's and Dahlin's ELC. If that how GMJB chooses to play it that's his perogative but I see it as a waste.

 

No.

 

Living with a couple of bad contracts -- like every team in the NHL does -- doesn't mean that the Sabres are writing off the season.  It just means that JBott has determined that the team is better off living with those contracts than it would be if it paid the price to another team to take those contracts.

 

If teams were unable to win with a couple of bad contracts, then no team would win.

[GASabresIUFAN]

We've been basically the worst team in the league almost every season over the last half decade. Biding our time and idly waiting for these bad contract to lapse over time just perpetuates the losing. Waiting 2 more seasons to replace Bogosian essentially wastes 2/3 of Mittelstadt's and Dahlin's ELC. If that how GMJB chooses to play it that's his perogative but I see it as a waste.

If we were spending to the cap I might agree with you, but because of our youth we can afford Bogo for another year or two even if he plays sparingly or not at all. Between Dahlin, Nelson, Scandella, Risto, Guhle, McCabe, and Pilut we have the makings of a capable and young D group with or without Bogo. If Bogo remains injured he goes on LTIR and we regain his cap hit if we spend to the cap. If he passes his physical soon Jbot may also be able to buy him out saving us $4 mill in cap each of the next two years if necessary.

 

On the other side, if this surgery proves successful, there actually is a chance we might get some value from this contract. Regardless Bogo’s deal isn’t holding the Sabres back at this point. It’s really more a symbol of TM’s bad judgement as a GM.

Edited May 22, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[Drunkard]

No.

 

Living with a couple of bad contracts -- like every team in the NHL does -- doesn't mean that the Sabres are writing off the season. It just means that JBott has determined that the team is better off living with those contracts than it would be if it paid the price to another team to take those contracts.

 

If teams were unable to win with a couple of bad contracts, then no team would win.

Other teams can win with deadwood. Probably because those guys ride the pine 9r 4th line/bottom pairing in good organizations while they get penciled in for the top 4 and/or PP time for us. Expecting Zach Bogosian to handle top 4 minutes entering a new season is flat out irresponsible at this point and GMJB did that with his clean slate.

 

3 players, $15 million for 66 games and 3 points of production doesn't look like trying to win to me. They waived one bum. I think they should be more proactive in ditching the others. If you can't trade them you can still demote them.

 

2 AHL defensemen and an AHL forward on 1 year deals to take their places would likely produce better results. I don't know who officially replaced Moulson but whoever it was only had to score a single point to outscore him.

[nfreeman]

Other teams can win with deadwood. Probably because those guys ride the pine 9r 4th line/bottom pairing in good organizations while they get penciled in for the top 4 and/or PP time for us. Expecting Zach Bogosian to handle top 4 minutes entering a new season is flat out irresponsible at this point and GMJB did that with his clean slate.

 

3 players, $15 million for 66 games and 3 points of production doesn't look like trying to win to me. They waived one bum. I think they should be more proactive in ditching the others. If you can't trade them you can still demote them.

 

2 AHL defensemen and an AHL forward on 1 year deals to take their places would likely produce better results. I don't know who officially replaced Moulson but whoever it was only had to score a single point to outscore him.

 

But they did use 2 AHL defensemen and an AHL forward instead of the guys you're referring to.  They waived Moulson, Bogosian played 18 games and Gorges played 34 games.

 

No one is disagreeing with the premise that the Sabres would be better off without those 3 contracts.  I just think you're well underestimating the difficulty/price involved in unloading them and well overestimating the harm suffered by failing to ditch them.

[LGR4GM]

Other teams can win with deadwood. Probably because those guys ride the pine 9r 4th line/bottom pairing in good organizations while they get penciled in for the top 4 and/or PP time for us. Expecting Zach Bogosian to handle top 4 minutes entering a new season is flat out irresponsible at this point and GMJB did that with his clean slate.

 

3 players, $15 million for 66 games and 3 points of production doesn't look like trying to win to me. They waived one bum. I think they should be more proactive in ditching the others. If you can't trade them you can still demote them.

 

2 AHL defensemen and an AHL forward on 1 year deals to take their places would likely produce better results. I don't know who officially replaced Moulson but whoever it was only had to score a single point to outscore him.

They did demote them. Moulson went to the AHL. Bogo was injured. Gorges barely played. Gorges average TOI was 14:56 this past season compared to an 8 year average of 20:29. Bogosian literally cannot be demoted because he is injured. Gorges no longer is on the team. Moulson is effectively gone because of his permanent demotion. Literally what more do you want Botterill to do? I have no ill will towards Botts for spending a couple months at the beginning of the season seeing who would sink or swim. At least now I don't have to listen too, "they should have played Moulson more than Baptiste because Moulson was good 2 years ago and just needed another chance". I don't have to listen to it because Moulson effectively burned that bridge. Gorges looked slow and out of place, he burned that bridge. Bogo was injured so we have no idea there. 

 

This is the 2nd post where you tossed out the 3 players 15million for 66 games thing. The issue again with this number is that you are not taking into account the money we got back all season basically for Bogo being on LTIR. That wasn't wasted money because we could have used it. Moulson once demoted only counted like 3.85 or something against the cap. Gorges was 3.9 million. So you are upset over roughly 7.8mil in dead cap which would have done what for us? The teams problems aren't cap problems, they are a lack of depth and talent due to poor drafting over the past 10 years withe exception of hopefully Murray's last 2 years. 7.8mil in dead cap on team where it's leading scorer made 925k plus bonuses really isn't the reason we finished last. 

[apuszczalowski]

What's incredible about Vegas is most of their roster and top players were guys that were given away, and some their previous team actually paid Vegas to take. Then throw in their coach had been fired and not even given a ride home after being fired while on the road. They are basically the team of misfit players.