The Expansion Draft Revisted

[LGR4GM]

We gave up Carrier to protect Ullmark. Other teams gave up more to protect less. Florida for example, basically dumped a contract and the price was Marchessault. Looking back do you like what Buffalo did? Are there specific teams you think absolutely blew the draft? And seeing the results in Vegas, did they make any single mistake in the draft? 

 

List of the Vegas players and where they come from. 

https://www.nhl.com/news/how-2017-18-golden-knights-were-built/c-298715092

[Randall Flagg]

I would do the same exact thing again. It helped get us scandella. And the only way our goalie outlook could be any worse is if Ullmark disappeared.

[GASabresIUFAN]

We did fine, but you wonder if Boston would have traded us Colin Miller for a 3rd instead of Baloo. Ana, Minn, Fla and CBS really blew it.

 

I wonder why we couldn’t get Theodore from Ana.

Edited May 21, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[WildCard]

We did fine, but you wonder if Boston would have traded us Colin Miller for a 3rd instead of Baloo. Ana, Minn, Fla and CBS really blew it.

I mean the thing is, everyone knew when it was happening that Minnesota and Florida were up. CBJ just got unreal unlucky 

[LTS]

Agreed.  I think the Sabres play was perfect on this.  Other teams had painted themselves into corners and then compounded the problem by making really poor decisions.

 

Let's be honest.  Florida is the team to blame the most here right?  They unceremoniously dumped Gallant and then provided the Knights with solid players. 

The Wild are second in the honors of assisting the Knights with their sheer ignorance.

 

Everyone basically agrees that CBJ gets a pass because there was no indication Karlsson would explode as he did. 

 

Even considering the Penguins letting Fleury go as a coup for Vegas it was only a few years back when the knock on Fleury was that he couldn't help a team win in the playoffs.  Well, that seems to have changed now.

 

I'm not sure Seattle will get that same luck as we have to hope GMs will have learned a lesson (of course, we always hope they have learned a lesson and they never seem to).

[Winston]

Columbus got hosed with some awful NMCs. They had to protect Dubinsky and Scott Hartnell. That left Josh Anderson exposed. And they were so concerned with losing him that they paid a first rounder to have Vegas take Karlsson and Clarkson's contract.

 

Hindsight is 20-20. Josh Anderson was not 20-20. He put up 19-11-30 this year. You all know what Karlsson did! And Vegas used that 1st rounder (24th) in a deal with Winnipeg to move up and take Nick Suzuki, currently their top-ranked prospect.

 

All of that: OUCH

[Drunkard]

At the time I wish we would have bribed them with a pick/prospect or whatever combo to take Moulson or Bogosian off our hands. I still feel that way even though Moulson has only got one year left.

[Weave]

At the time I wish we would have bribed them with a pick/prospect or whatever combo to take Moulson or Bogosian off our hands. I still feel that way even though Moulson has only got one year left.

It’s quite aparent that Vegas was intent on bulding a real team and weren’t terribly interested in getting bribed into taking bad contracts.

[Drunkard]

It’s quite aparent that Vegas was intent on bulding a real team and weren’t terribly interested in getting bribed into taking bad contracts.

 

Except for the fact that they did accept bribes to take on bad contracts. They were bribed into taking Fleury's contract and they were bribed into taking Clarkson's contract. I'm pretty sure Florida bribed them with Marchessault or however you spell his name into taking another guy Florida considered a cap dump.

Just because some of the dumps they took on ended up panning out doesn't change the fact that there were considered bad contract dumps at the time.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Alkoholist

[Weave]

Except for the fact that they did accept bribes to take on bad contracts. They were bribed into take Fleury's contract and they were bribed into taking Clarkson's contract. I'm pretty sure Florida bribed them with Marchessault or however you spell his name into taking another guy Florida considered a cap dump.

 

Just because some of the dumps they took on ending up panning out doesn't change the fact that there were considered bad contract dumps at the time.

I don’t think they needed to be bribed into taking Fluery. He was at the top of the pile of possible choices. And the bribe for Clarkson was a player that fit in their plans, no?

 

Buffalo would have had to give up value to get them to take Moulson. That’s what I meant. They were working a plan.

[Drunkard]

I don’t think they needed to be bribed into taking Fluery. He was at the top of the pile of possible choices. And the bribe for Clarkson was a player that fit in their plans, no?

 

Buffalo would have had to give up value to get them to take Moulson. That’s what I meant. They were working a plan.

 

Then why did Pittsburgh have to give them a second round pick?

 

Of course we would have had to give up value and I stated that in my initial post. We could have given them a pick or a prospect to entice them (hence the term bribe). Do you think they would have taken Bogosian instead of Carrier in exchange for a prospect like Nylander? I bet they would have.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NHL_Expansion_Draft

Edited May 21, 2018 by Alkoholist

[Lanny]

We did fine, but you wonder if Boston would have traded us Colin Miller for a 3rd instead of Baloo. Ana, Minn, Fla and CBS really blew it.

 

I wonder why we couldn’t get Theodore from Ana.

They traded Theodore to Vegas to protect themselves from losing Fowler, Lindholm or Vatanen in the expansion draft. Stoner's salary also being part of the deal. Sending Theodore somewhere else wouldn't provide that. 

[LTS]

Then why did Pittsburgh have to give them a second round pick?

 

Of course we would have had to give up value and I stated that in my initial post. We could have given them a pick or a prospect to entice them (hence the term bribe). Do you think they would have taken Bogosian instead of Carrier in exchange for a prospect like Nylander? I bet they would have.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NHL_Expansion_Draft

 

Well, I think that's crafty on their part.  Pittsburgh could have lost someone else to Vegas and Vegas knew it.  So they played them into getting just a bit more to confirm that Fleury would be taken.  It's certainly crafty and Pittsburgh guaranteed that a contract was moved out.

[shrader]

Well, I think that's crafty on their part.  Pittsburgh could have lost someone else to Vegas and Vegas knew it.  So they played them into getting just a bit more to confirm that Fleury would be taken.  It's certainly crafty and Pittsburgh guaranteed that a contract was moved out.

 

I'm sure they played a ton of teams like this, Buffalo included.  They were sitting in a great spot where they could threaten anyone with "we'll take so-and-so unless you give us something extra".  It's a hell of a lot easier to do all of this when there is a cap and you're also not splitting an expansion draft with another team.

[Drunkard]

Well, I think that's crafty on their part.  Pittsburgh could have lost someone else to Vegas and Vegas knew it.  So they played them into getting just a bit more to confirm that Fleury would be taken.  It's certainly crafty and Pittsburgh guaranteed that a contract was moved out.

 

Yep. They forced Pittsburgh to bribe them even though just about everyone expected them to take Fleury. I still think we missed an opportunity to dump one of our cap anchors. I hope they don't make the same mistake when Seattle has their draft. By that point the likely dump will be Okposo, unless he seriously rebounds in the next 2 seasons.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Alkoholist

[pi2000]

ANA had to protect Bieksa because of his NMC.    So they protected him, Fowler and Lindholm... 3D, leaving Vatanen and Manson unprotected.    Theodore was exempt.    The only way they could keep Vatanen and Manson was if they traded Theodore to the Knights in return for them selecting Stoner.    

 

What other choice did they have?   If they traded Theodore somewhere else, then VGK turns around and takes one of Manson or Vatanen. 

 

The only other option was to trade Theodore for picks AND trade Vatanen before the draft AND protect 4 D (Bieksa, Manson, Lindhold, Fowler).     They likely didn't many good offers for Theodore or Vatanen because other teams knew they were stuck.    So they would've had to sell low, and would've lost a forward like Silfverbeg (assuming they protect Getzlaf, Perry, Rakell, and Kesler).   

 

I'll say this again, the idea of 7/3 or 4/4, is what killed everybody.    Why not let each team protect 10 skaters regardless?   That was the wrinkle that tilted the scales HEAVILY in Vegas' favor.

[nfreeman]

IMHO, since each team was permitted to protect their best 7 forwards, their best 3 defensemen and their best goalie (or whichever ones they were smart/dumb enough to give NMCs to), VGK's success was in no way "unfair."

 

More broadly, the fact that VGK was able to put together an SCF team with a bunch of 8th-best forwards, 4th-best defensemen and 2nd-best goalies is IMHO an indictment on the state of the game.  Goaltending, deflection/scrum goals and special teams continue to have far too great an impact on outcomes.

[SwampD]

IMHO, since each team was permitted to protect their best 7 forwards, their best 3 defensemen and their best goalie (or whichever ones they were smart/dumb enough to give NMCs to), VGK's success was in no way "unfair."

 

More broadly, the fact that VGK was able to put together an SCF team with a bunch of 8th-best forwards, 4th-best defensemen and 2nd-best goalies is IMHO an indictment on the state of the game.  Goaltending, deflection/scrum goals and special teams continue to have far too great an impact on outcomes.

This is a bit simplistic. Certain 8s, 4s on some teams are other teams 1s and 2s. And Fleury is a 1 on half the league.

It was impossible for the Sabres to screw this up. They had more protects than they had things to protect.

Edited May 21, 2018 by SwampD

[nfreeman]

This is a bit disingenuous simplistic. Certain 8s, 4s on some teams are other teams 1s and 2s. And Fleury is a 1 on half the league.

It was impossible for the Sabres to screw this up. They had more protects than they had things to protect.

 

I see your douchbaggish friendly attitude from the playoffs thread is still going strong, eh?

 

Yes, of course some teams' #8/#4 are better than others'.  The fact remains though that every team in the league got to protect their best players.  No one looked at the list of available players and identified any perennial all-stars -- and in fact plenty of hockey writers predicted that VGK would be terrible.

 

And while the Sabres "won" the expansion draft by not having to lose a good player, that is very cold comfort, because the reason they didn't lose a good player is that they have precious few of those.

[SwampD]

I see your douchbaggish friendly attitude from the playoffs thread is still going strong, eh?

 

Yes, of course some teams' #8/#4 are better than others'.  The fact remains though that every team in the league got to protect their best players.  No one looked at the list of available players and identified any perennial all-stars -- and in fact plenty of hockey writers predicted that VGK would be terrible.

 

And while the Sabres "won" the expansion draft by not having to lose a good player, that is very cold comfort, because the reason they didn't lose a good player is that they have precious few of those.

I read it a bit later and realized it was the wrong word. Should have just changed it.

 

Boy, the PC police have finally won. We now have to be nice to fans of other teams who come to our board to tell how great they have it. Awesome.

[nfreeman]

The guy is and has always been a Sabres fan. 

 

He's also a fan of his city's new team, which plays in the WC and has zero history with the Sabres or any other team, and is excited about their success, especially given the years of relentless suckitude that his hometown team have visited upon all of us.  That doesn't make him a troll or a DB or anything else, and certainly doesn't justify grown men getting their panties in a wringer and telling him to leave their pity party.

 

I've been called a lot of things on this board, but PC hasn't been one of them until now. 

[SwampD]

The guy is and has always been a Sabres fan. 

 

He's also a fan of his city's new team, which plays in the WC and has zero history with the Sabres or any other team, and is excited about their success, especially given the years of relentless suckitude that his hometown team have visited upon all of us.  That doesn't make him a troll or a DB or anything else, and certainly doesn't justify grown men getting their panties in a wringer and telling him to leave their pity party.

 

I've been called a lot of things on this board, but PC hasn't been one of them until now. 

 

Why should I care about any of this? Actually nevermind. I will be nothing but supportive of my hockey fan brethren from all other teams (even the Bruins because gosh golly, they deserve to be happy, too) and I'm truly sorry for my micro agressions.

[Weave]

Then why did Pittsburgh have to give them a second round pick?

 

Of course we would have had to give up value and I stated that in my initial post. We could have given them a pick or a prospect to entice them (hence the term bribe). Do you think they would have taken Bogosian instead of Carrier in exchange for a prospect like Nylander? I bet they would have.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NHL_Expansion_Draft

 

They didn't bribe them.  Vegas wasn't taking Fleury if they didn't think he was one of the preferred goalies in their draft plan.  The pick was to ensure that another, more desirable player wasn't selected instead.

And no, I don't think we could have given them Bogo if Nylander was thrown in unless Vegas had an interest in either Bogo or Nylander to begin with.  They had a plan and stuck to it.  Fleury was part of the plan.  That P-burgh had another player even more valuable to Vegas than Fleury is why a pick was thrown in.

Edited May 21, 2018 by We've

[Drunkard]

They didn't bribe them. Vegas wasn't taking Fleury if they didn't think he was one of the preferred goalies in their draft plan. The pick was to ensure that another, more desirable player wasn't selected instead.

And no, I don't think we could have given them Bogo if Nylander was thrown in unless Vegas had an interest in either Bogo or Nylander to begin with. They had a plan and stuck to it. Fleury was part of the plan. That P-burgh had another player even more valuable to Vegas than Fleury is why a pick was thrown in.

It didn't have to be Nylander though. We could have given them one of our other young guys or draft picks. Maybe they would have gone for a prospect like Bailey, Baptiste, Pu, or Asplund. If not maybe one of those guys coupled with a second round pick.

 

It was an opportunity for a new GM to trim some fat from this underachieving roster and free up some spots to replace them with new blood. Turning Ennis and Foligno into Scandella and Pominville was great but instead of doing more he went with the clean slate mantra.

[Weave]

It didn't have to be Nylander though. We could have given them one of our other young guys or draft picks. Maybe they would have gone for a prospect like Bailey, Baptiste, Pu, or Asplund. If not maybe one of those guys coupled with a second round pick.

 

It was an opportunity for a new GM to trim some fat from this underachieving roster and free up some spots to replace them with new blood. Turning Ennis and Foligno into Scandella and Pominville was great but instead of doing more he went with the clean slate mantra.

 

I think we're talking past each other.  My take is, Vegas had a shopping list.  If the name wasn't on the list, the sweetener didn't matter.  We weren't moving those guys to Vegas.