TO TRADE OR NOT TO TRADE

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Yes.   He hates losing, it eats at him and he speaks the truth... so yeah If you call that a "self-loathing emo bitch", then we need more of them.   

 

A 60 point player, best face-off man in the league, kills penalties, 1st power play unit, great defensively.... yeah I'd say he's worth every penny.

 

I agree with both of these point and also think it would be a mistake to trade ROR.  Now, if he has asked to be traded then that's a different story, but I do not think that he has.

[etiennep99]

Do you really think the Canadiens would offer a + on top of Galchenyuk?  What makes ROR more desirable to the Habs?

 

The Canadiens have been desperately seeking a centre.  They've tried Galchenyuk and Drouin at C, and both failed miserably.

We have 2 great centres with more possible centres on the way (Mittelman, Maloner, Blackwell(on AHL but lighting it up), Asplund, Davidsson, Oglevie, O'Regan, E-Rod, etc.)   So, yeah, Montreal would pay through the nose to get ROR from us.

Agree 100% on the Kane comments.

 

100 per cent agree with the comments on the Kane Komments.

Well it was getting a return or watch him walk as a UFA.   And if he resigns with the sharks a 1st round pick + prospect is what I would have expected anyway.

As on O'Reilly I keep hearing the stars and blues want him.

 

 

I sat down like the Thinker and came up with these two teams too (along with SJ and Montreal).  So, is it a real rumor, or just that obvious who needs centres?

Edited April 13, 2018 by etiennep99

[Robviously]

Ryan OReilly might be the best player for the Sabres this decade.

He is among the best two-way centres in the game.

Sometimes it's fun to pretend Jack Eichel isn't easily our best player.

Yes. He hates losing, it eats at him and he speaks the truth... so yeah If you call that a "self-loathing emo bitch", then we need more of them.

If he hates losing, he wouldn't have found his game in January this season. He's definitely made a big show of trying to be the most sad after losses but he's been as consistent as the rest of the team in terms of showing up.

[7+6=13]

3 things

There are not endless amounts of posters wanting ROR traded. There aren't even a lot of posters. Most say would depend on the return as in, you would need to really make it worth my while. We need to stop this type of hyperbole. It isn't true. I don't want ROR traded unless it was for something ridiculous like 2 firsts, top prospect, and a rostered player. Does that mean I am one of the endless posters who want him traded? I don't think so. 

 

The second thing is the Kane point. We did not run him out of town. Kane left because Botterill deemed his UFA contract was going to be more than he was willing to pay so he traded an asset he planned not to have after July 1. We keep ignoring Kane's contract situation like it didn't exist. It did and it does. Kane is a good hockey player. He just wasn't going to be retained so he was moved.

 

I thought of a 3rd thing because it has been a talking point around here for a few weeks now. "Locker room cancer" and the idea that if we move one player we will magically be better. I have not heard anyone except for people arguing against trading Kane or ROR pull out the magical locker room cancer fix theory.This locker room has more problems than 1 guy being a cancer. It is getting old hearing this tossed out as some thing that a majority of the board believe. A majority of the board does not believe ROR is some locker room cancer and once gone all of our problems will melt away like snow in July. Every time a member of the board says "hey you know, this is not working maybe we should trade player x", they then start getting the response "OOOOO you think he is a locker room cancer and this will fix everything! You are so dumb stop running good players out of town!" That isn't what is happening. What is happening is looking at the season the Sabres just had and asking where can changes be made. ROR would be a possible option. That doesn't mean people are running him out of town. Ristolainen could be traded, I am not running him out of time. Reinhart could be traded, not running him out of town. 

 

The Sabres sucked this past year. Discussing what we could get for some of our players makes sense in that environment and it isn't rooted in the belief that moving 1 guy will magically fix ###### like some sort of magical hockey fairy waving a wand.  

 

I agree with this 100%.  OP, just needed to ignore a few things in an effort to make sense of the rant.  

[dudacek]

Sometimes it's fun to pretend Jack Eichel isn't easily our best player.

If he hates losing, he wouldn't have found his game in January this season. He's definitely made a big show of trying to be the most sad after losses but he's been as consistent as the rest of the team in terms of showing up.

Jack Eichel has been our most talented player since he arrived, and passed O’Reilly for best this year, but most talented isn’t always best. It’s fun to pretend there is no reason for two coaches to have played ROR into the ground ahead of Jack these past three years. Edited April 13, 2018 by dudacek

[Radar]

Sometimes it's fun to pretend Jack Eichel isn't easily our best player.

If he hates losing, he wouldn't have found his game in January this season. He's definitely made a big show of trying to be the most sad after losses but he's been as consistent as the rest of the team in terms of showing up.

Sorry but your posts are really nonsensical at times.

[Robviously]

Jack Eichel has been our most talented player since he arrived, and passed O’Reilly for best this year, but most talented isn’t always best. It’s fun to pretend there is no reason for two coaches to have played ROR into the ground ahead of Jack these past three years.

Jack blew by him last year.

 

Where is all this love for ROR coming from?  No one on this board was over the moon about him during the season.  But now he emotes harder than he's ever emoted when he cleans out his locker and we love him again?  

 

This is two seasons in a row where he muddled his way through the first 3 months of the season and then put up numbers starting in January once we were well out of the playoff race.  He's talented and a good 2nd line center.  But he's not indispensable.  We brought him in and paid him to be a leader and the team has been half asleep for two years.  We can trade him if the right deal is there.

Sorry but your posts are really nonsensical at times.

Two seasons in a row where he start putting up numbers in January.  His game logs are on ESPN.com if you want to check them out.

[dudacek]

Jack blew by him last year.

 

Where is all this love for ROR coming from? No one on this board was over the moon about him during the season. But now he emotes harder than he's ever emoted when he cleans out his locker and we love him again?

 

This is two seasons in a row where he muddled his way through the first 3 months of the season and then put up numbers starting in January once we were well out of the playoff race. He's talented and a good 2nd line center. But he's not indispensable. We brought him in and paid him to be a leader and the team has been half asleep for two years. We can trade him if the right deal is there.

Two seasons in a row where he start putting up numbers in January. His game logs are on ESPN.com if you want to check them out.

During the 18-game span between oct. 24 and dec. 2, where the season was effectively lost, the Sabres went 4-12-2. Jack’s stats were 3/6/9.Ryan’s were 4/5/9.

 

I’m just saying.

Edited April 14, 2018 by dudacek

[Robviously]

During the 18-game span between oct. 24 and dec. 2, where the season was effectively lost, the Sabres went 4-12-2. Jack’s stats were 3/6/9.Ryan’s were 4/5/9.

 

I’m just saying.

One guy is on his ELC and the other is in the prime of his career and was brought in for his leadership.

 

This is illustrating why I'm fine with the Sabres using ROR as part of a big trade this summer. He hasn't led the way. His level of play is generally just there with the rest of the team.

[Taro T]

One guy is on his ELC and the other is in the prime of his career and was brought in for his leadership.

This is illustrating why I'm fine with the Sabres using ROR as part of a big trade this summer. He hasn't led the way. His level of play is generally just there with the rest of the team.

He was brought in for more than leadership. The leadership hasn't panned out, but most of the rest of it has.

 

As long as he isn't actively creating factions in the dressing room, and there is no indication he is, he should not be traded unless they get an absolute can't pass this up offer.

 

He is a very good #2 C and those don't grow on trees. Keeping O'Reilly & letting Mittelstadt grow into the productive 2nd scoring line C that it was hoped Reinhart would develop into would allow the Sabres to actually dictate matchups some. Been far too long since that was true.

 

And his level of play isn't just down w/ his teammates, he's their 2nd best player. Trade that at your own risk Mr. Botterill. ;)

[inkman]

Yes. He hates losing, it eats at him and he speaks the truth... so yeah If you call that a "self-loathing emo bitch", then we need more of them.

The opinion wasn't mine. I'm really not sure what to make of all this.

[stuuuuuuuuu]

Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser. I'm glad ROR is not ok with this past season, we need more who hate losing.

 

That being said I would move him in a Ryan Johanson - Seth Jones type deal in .000090 seconds

[Radar]

He was brought in for more than leadership. The leadership hasn't panned out, but most of the rest of it has.

As long as he isn't actively creating factions in the dressing room, and there is no indication he is, he should not be traded unless they get an absolute can't pass this up offer.

He is a very good #2 C and those don't grow on trees. Keeping O'Reilly & letting Mittelstadt grow into the productive 2nd scoring line C that it was hoped Reinhart would develop into would allow the Sabres to actually dictate matchups some. Been far too long since that was true.

And his level of play isn't just down w/ his teammates, he's their 2nd best player. Trade that at your own risk Mr. Botterill. ;)

Good post.

[mjd1001]

For the record, trading ROR would be a colossal mistake.    He's everything you want in a 3rd line center... Eichel, Mittlestadt, ROR down the middle is how you build a Cup contender.    That could be the best center combination in the league in the not too distant future.... you don't sacrifice that just because ROR has a hard time playing in a losing environment.   

I agree with you on everything except that trading him would be a mistake.  Of course it depends on the return.

 

I do agree that he is everything (almost) that you want in a 3rd line center. But that is my problem with him...right now, he is not getting the minutes of a third line center.  Show me that his EVEN STRENGTH minutes per game will drop down where 2 other centers on this roster will have more than him and I'll be happy.  He is good (not great, but good) on the power play and penalty killing...so give him minutes there.  It is just 5-on-5, he is not a top-2 center...you need more minutes from people other than him.  ROR this year STILL got more 5-on-5 ice time per game than Eichell (it was close though), that needs to change.

 

I'm fine with ROR averaging 3.5 minute per game ice time on the PP, and 1.5 minutes Short handed (like he did this year)  Lets just get him down to 13 minuntes per game even strength (still giving him 18 minutes average).  With a couple minutes less ice time per game, he just might play even better because he won't be so worn out (physically and mentally) by the end of the year.

 

The problem is, who (besides Eichel up front at ANY forward position) do you want playing 15-16 minutes per game even strength? Reinhart is another player who is a LOT better on the PP than he is even strength, and  there was no one on this roster this year that was great even strength....and i'm not sure any of the young guys will be 'ready' next year to handle that workload.  SO, it is either ROR again gets overworked...OR you trade for someone who can handle (and you WANT to handle) those minutes up front.

Edited April 14, 2018 by mjd1001

[Robviously]

He was brought in for more than leadership. The leadership hasn't panned out, but most of the rest of it has.

 

As long as he isn't actively creating factions in the dressing room, and there is no indication he is, he should not be traded unless they get an absolute can't pass this up offer.

 

He is a very good #2 C and those don't grow on trees. Keeping O'Reilly & letting Mittelstadt grow into the productive 2nd scoring line C that it was hoped Reinhart would develop into would allow the Sabres to actually dictate matchups some. Been far too long since that was true.

 

And his level of play isn't just down w/ his teammates, he's their 2nd best player. Trade that at your own risk Mr. Botterill. ;)

Well, yes.  We can't go into next season with Eichel and Mittelstadt are our top 2 centers.  Keeping ROR prevents that if nothing else, and he'd be a great 3rd C to have when both guys are a couple years older.

 

But it really depends on how much you think we need a major shake-up to change things around.  Can you change a team's identity by swapping out role players?  Maybe, but that's what we tried this season and it didn't get us far.  I do have more faith in guys like Mittelstadt and Guhle can change the team than most rookies (the Guhle/Ullmark game against CBJ in January looked like a completely different team).  But if the core of the team is still completely in place come October, chances are pretty good we're lackluster again.

 

I hope we make a hockey trade.  Gratton for Briere.  Warrener/Ballard for Drury.  Do something to change our trajectory and shake things up.  It's worked before.

[Weave]

LOL at ROR as a 3rd line center. There is maybe 2-3 teams in the league that wouldn’t be thrilled to have him as their 2nd line center over what they have now, and an additional few that would welcome him on their first line.

[Robviously]

LOL at ROR as a 3rd line center. There is maybe 2-3 teams in the league that wouldn’t be thrilled to have him as their 2nd line center over what they have now, and an additional few that would welcome him on their first line.

OK, did literally anyone feel this way during the season when we were watching him play 2-3 times a week?  I really don't remember anyone being over the moon about him this year when we were actually watching games.

 

To put it another way, if all you knew about the next 5 seasons of Sabres hockey is that our top 2 centers are Eichel and ROR, how confident are you that we become a contender in that time?  Most of the hope from the last few games of the season was from imagining a future with a top 2 of Eichel and Mittelstadt.

[Weave]

OK, did literally anyone feel this way during the season when we were watching him play 2-3 times a week?  I really don't remember anyone being over the moon about him this year when we were actually watching games.

 

To put it another way, if all you knew about the next 5 seasons of Sabres hockey is that our top 2 centers are Eichel and ROR, how confident are you that we become a contender in that time?  Most of the hope from the last few games of the season was from imagining a future with a top 2 of Eichel and Mittelstadt.

 

Funny, there was a huge call out to judge Sam on the totality of two seasons instead of what he did in the first 40 games, but ROR doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt.

 

I don't think that any of the issues of team competitiveness have anything to do Jack and ROR.  I think the only current playoff team that could match us center-wise is Pittsburgh.

[mjd1001]

LOL at ROR as a 3rd line center. There is maybe 2-3 teams in the league that wouldn’t be thrilled to have him as their 2nd line center over what they have now, and an additional few that would welcome him on their first line.

Ok, WHY do you think all those teams would love him as a 2nd line center?

 

-When I actually WATCH the games (forget about stats), he very leads any kind of transition game through the neutral zone. It is not just everyone SAYING his is slow, but when you watch the game his strength for sure is not leading (or being part of) a transition game.

 

-He is not a great (or even good) goal scorer when not on the Power play. Is he a good power play player? Yes, but look at how he performs at even strength...he is NOT a 2nd line center in terms of production on most teams, let alone almost all teams.

 

I see a lot of people on here saying he is a top 2 center, but very few reasons for it.  He should be getting 3rd line center even-strength minutes...and gaining a few extra minutes by being a regular on the PP an penalty kill.  The eye test (for me) AND his even strength numbers (over not just this year, but just about EVERY year of his career) do not show any signs of him being a productive second line center, unless he is getting minutes on the PP..which you can do with a 3rd line center.

 

I am not saying I hate ROR, and that this team will be a lot better without him...it is just he is not a guy that almost every team in the league wants getting 1st or 2nd line center minutes...especially at even strength.  From a 2nd line center...that you expect to put the puck in the net, you need more than mid-teens in even strength goals year after year.  This year he had 9 even strength goals...that puts him in a tie for 105th place among players listed as a center in the league.

Edited April 14, 2018 by mjd1001

[LGR4GM]

He played the second toughest 5v5 minutes in the league last year and still put up over half his points at even strength. You saying he should be getting 3rd line 5v5 minutes is, just incorrect.

 

He had 34 even strength points. He scored 61 total points. On the worst team in the league. That's pretty solid.

 

Teams would love a 25 min a night 2nd line center like ROR that they can put against other teams best lines.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Skurk Liger

[Drunkard]

There seems to be some sort of cognitive dissonance going on that says you can cut his even strength ice time and still give him the most difficult match ups.

 

If you're going to match O'Reilly up against the opponents best line you're not going to be able to cut his minutes without cutting into his special teams time. The Crosbys and Ovechkins of the league and going to play top line minutes so if you want them matched up with O'Reilly he's going to have to get a ton of ice time.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Alkoholist

[LGR4GM]

There seems to be some sort of cognitive dissonance going on that says you can cut his even strength ice time and still give him the most difficult match ups.

 

If you're going to match O'Reilly up against the opponents best line you're not going to be able to cut his minutes without cutting into his special teams time. The Crosbys and Ovechkins of the league and going to play top line minutes so if you want them matched up with O'Reilly he's going to have to get a ton of ice time.

I can't see how this team replaces ROR 5v5 minutes and ends up better next year. Once Reinhart and him clicked it was good. They just needed a lw who didn't suck.

[Swedesessed]

Some thoughts:

 

1. I was a Kane supporter, but let's be fair: Was Kane going to stay in Buffalo with UFA on the horizon? The odds were very high that he was going to leave Buffalo, so I won't completely fault JBot for getting something back for a player who was most likely leaving town.

 

2. Lock Room Culture: The Truth? Stanley Cup winning teams all the way down to the Sabres have moments where the lock room culture is good, and then not so good, there are flows to it as the season goes on. When a team is winning, generally any issues are squashed because winning does that. Ever notice how bad teams always seem to have some locker room issues? Why? Because when a team does not win, it comes out. Plain and simple. Notice how EK9 isn't an issue with San Jose right now?

 

3. Name me one really bad team where it was said consistently 'oh the locker room culture here is so good' Its rare, if at all. Winning helps create culture. Always thought this angle was very overrated.

Edited April 14, 2018 by (E5)

[dudacek]

OK, did literally anyone feel this way during the season when we were watching him play 2-3 times a week?  I really don't remember anyone being over the moon about him this year when we were actually watching games.

 

To put it another way, if all you knew about the next 5 seasons of Sabres hockey is that our top 2 centers are Eichel and ROR, how confident are you that we become a contender in that time?  Most of the hope from the last few games of the season was from imagining a future with a top 2 of Eichel and Mittelstadt.

I thought O’Reilly had more down games this season than the previous seasons, but he still performed better than any other Sabre at his role, except Jack and that’s not a slam-dunk. He is the least of our problems.

And I believe we can absolutely be a contender with Eichel and O’Reilly is our top two centres, assuming Eichel is the 90 point guy his talent says he should be.

[Drunkard]

I can't see how this team replaces ROR 5v5 minutes and ends up better next year. Once Reinhart and him clicked it was good. They just needed a lw who didn't suck.

Yep. I was one of the few people on here that wasn't over the moon when we traded for O'Reilly but I'd prefer to keep him now. The only way I'd trade him would be for either a younger center in return (on par with a Monahan or Mittelstadt) or really good defenseman on par with someone good enough to play in Nashville or Minnesota's top 4 that is is young and cost controlled or has plenty of term on their contract while still being 27 or younger. If he doesn't get that keep him until Mittelstadt proves he can supplant him and then re-assess next offseason or wait for someone to completely overpay.