Kane traded to San Jose for a Cond. ‘19 1st, Dan O’ Regan and Conditional 4th

[Marvelo]

 

Too young to remember Punch?

 

(of course he did waste a pick on a non-existent Asian player once just for giggles)

 

Read "Heaven and Hell in the NHL" by Punch. He tells all and in retrospect, there were plenty of problems with his management. 

[carpandean]

Has anyone posted this:

 

 

Starting at 0:10, Jack pursues Harvard player coming out of their zone and forces him to cough up the puck to ... Rodrigues, who steals the puck and makes a beautiful backhand pass to ... O'Regan, who roofs in the double-OT semi-final game winner!

[SDS]

On a rental? Sure.

 

Paul Hamilton tried to make the point that Botterill sent a message to the fans when he mentioned player preparation as being very important to the organization. He then went on to say how Kane is last one on and first one off the ice, as well as spending no extra time at the rink.

 

http://www.wgr550.com/media/audio-channel/2-26-schopp-and-bulldog-hour-4

 

Go to the 7:00 minute mark to hear Hamilton's remarks. At 11:50 it is actually Bulldog who tries to connect the dots between Boterrill's PC preparation remarks (and Hamilton's previous remarks) and Kane.

[Stoner]

IMHO, this isn’t a bad look for Botterill as much as it is a horrible look for Evander Kane. He is the asset. He is the one no one would pay anything for.

What kind of look is it for the NHL? There's an elephant in the room here that no one wants to talk about. How much does his skin color play into his valuation around the league? Kane's a bum, but ROR isn't? What of Patrick Kane? Would he be a pariah on the open market?

 

On a rental? Sure.

 

Paul Hamilton tried to make the point that Botterill sent a message to the fans when he mentioned player preparation as being very important to the organization. He then went on to say how Kane is last one on and first one off the ice, as well as spending no extra time at the rink.

Players prepare differently. Maybe that's what works for him. Would he be better if he showed up really early and went out and meditated while staring at the ice? Miller did that and at times was known for losing his focus.

 

Has anyone posted this:

 

 

Starting at 0:10, Jack pursues Harvard player coming out of their zone and forces him to cough up the puck to ... Rodrigues, who steals the puck and makes a beautiful backhand pass to ... O'Regan, who roofs in the double-OT semi-final game winner!

This could be the greatest highlight in Sabres history.

 

Missed this. It squares with my main beef with the guy: One of the lowest-hockey-IQ NHL hockey players I’ve seen.

This is a stretch. He chooses to prepare the way he chooses to prepare. It didn't stop him from being near the top of the league in even-strength goals over a decent course of time recently (too lazy to look it up). It doesn't make him a dumb-dumb.

[North Buffalo]

What kind of look is it for the NHL? There's an elephant in the room here that no one wants to talk about. How much does his skin color play into his valuation around the league? Kane's a bum, but ROR isn't? What of Patrick Kane? Would he be a pariah on the open market?

 

 

Players prepare differently. Maybe that's what works for him. Would he be better if he showed up really early and went out and meditated while staring at the ice? Miller did that and at times was known for losing his focus.

 

 

This could be the greatest highlight in Sabres history.

 

 

This is a stretch. He chooses to prepare the way he chooses to prepare. It didn't stop him from being near the top of the league in even-strength goals over a decent course of time recently (too lazy to look it up). It doesn't make him a dumb-dumb.

No but may be the reason he is unable to adjust his game... one trick pony kinda deal. Cant pass worth beans.

[Sabre fan]

This makes one wonder what Kane will actually get this summer...maybe he will be lucky to get signed anywhere

[LTS]

The Hawks got more for Hartman the we got for Kane says it all.

 

You love to ignore the differences...

 

The trade still sucks.

 

You've made your point and despite people bringing up additional items to consider you're completely unwilling to listen or consider them.  What's the point of continuing to comment?  Given no evidence that a better option EVER existed you are willing to hang onto this mantra.  Find evidence there was a better trade out there and bring it to the thread.

 

What kind of look is it for the NHL? There's an elephant in the room here that no one wants to talk about. How much does his skin color play into his valuation around the league? Kane's a bum, but ROR isn't? What of Patrick Kane? Would he be a pariah on the open market?

 

Players prepare differently. Maybe that's what works for him. Would he be better if he showed up really early and went out and meditated while staring at the ice? Miller did that and at times was known for losing his focus.

 

This could be the greatest highlight in Sabres history.

 

This is a stretch. He chooses to prepare the way he chooses to prepare. It didn't stop him from being near the top of the league in even-strength goals over a decent course of time recently (too lazy to look it up). It doesn't make him a dumb-dumb.

 

I'll talk about it.  Provide some evidence to support your assertions.  You have none.  You are just trying to stir up controversy even if none exists.  If you want to bring up a serious subject then at least come to the table with some evidence that would indicate that Evander Kane is being targeted because of his race.

 

You mention ROR.  ROR does not have the legal trouble Evander Kane has nor does he have the same locker room issues.  ROR has a potential locker room issue with some players and had one incident at a Tim Hortons.  He has not tried to create the same persona that Evander Kane certainly has by posting pictures of himself on social media with stacks of cash.  He has not been accused of assault, choking a woman, etc.  Has he?

 

Patrick Kane wasn't on the open market so we have no idea if it would compare.  If Evander Kane gets his FA signing of $8M are you going to claim he should have received $10M like Patrick Kane did and it's racism if he does not?  Evander Kane and Patrick Kane are not equals on the ice, not even close. Kane was listed as a party boy at one point but I haven't heard his name in a few years now.  We'll see if Evander can keep his name out of the press.  He did a great job of it this year and maybe he's turned a corner as well.  Either way, you need to find a true comparable before you can really compare.  Patrick Kane isn't it and neither is ROR.

 

But to claim pariah status because of race?  Chris Stewart was claimed off waivers as was Johnny Oduya.  How does that fit your narrative?  Or because they haven't had the kind of past that Kane was it doesn't quite work? 

 

I'm not here to say racism doesn't exist or that it's not relevant.  However, just because Evander Kane is black does not make this a race issue.  Injecting the discussion of racial discrimination into a conversation without any evidence of it not only undermines the conversation but also undermines the integrity of actual, serious, racial discrimination discussion.

[That Aud Smell]

This is a stretch. He chooses to prepare the way he chooses to prepare. It didn't stop him from being near the top of the league in even-strength goals over a decent course of time recently (too lazy to look it up). It doesn't make him a dumb-dumb.

 

He chooses to prepare by spending the least amount of time possible on the ice? K.

 

Last on, first off is not indicative of a guy who thinks (correctly) to himself, "the difference between success and mediocrity in this league is how you do dozens of the little things; I should get some extra time on the ice to work on those things." No. That is consistent with him being a guy who has supreme physical gifts -- like, probably, top 10% in the league -- and a motor that pretty reliably runs at 110 mph. And that's it. He thinks that's enough. And, honestly, he may not be capable of doing more or different than that.

 

I can't recall which game it was that I attended this season -- first half (third?) for sure. I know I posted this take at the time - maybe in the game thread. I sat in a section with which I've become familiar over the past 3 years. There's a good, fun collection of long-time STHs there -- people dating back to the 70s and 80s. Smart fans. Kane was skating on Eichel's line. The third time that Kane got needlessly gummed up with Eichel by moving to space that Eichel was moving to occupy (with the puck), one of those fans just screamed in frustration "GET OUT OF HIS DAMN WAY, KANE!" This section is about 15 rows up in the lower bowl, shoots twice end, between the face-off dots and the end line. The play was right in front of us. I am SURE the players heard this guy.

 

Anyhoo. If you've been watching Sabres hockey and have not concluded that Kane has really low hockey IQ, then I'm not sure what to say.

 

Yes, he can score at even strength. He's fast, strong, and generally gives a full effort. That's how and why he's had some success in the league. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by That Aud Smell

[SwampD]

I think race played a part in his return. Don't know how much and don't really even care or need proof. it's just how I feel. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

 

And PA, it has been talked about.

[darksabre]

This makes one wonder what Kane will actually get this summer...maybe he will be lucky to get signed anywhere

I think it's going to depend on his performance down the stretch and in the playoffs. If he really lights it up in the playoffs he could drive his value up. 

[nfreeman]

It’s just much easier for a troll to accuse people of racism than it is to put the time into real thought and analysis.

 

“Different outcomes for black person A and white person B? It must be racism!”

 

Weak.

[Gramps]

From the Sharks perspective ... 

 

https://www.fearthefin.com/2018/2/27/17057144/from-the-editor-on-covering-evander-kane-san-jose-sharks

[GASabresIUFAN]

You love to ignore the differences...

 

 

You've made your point and despite people bringing up additional items to consider you're completely unwilling to listen or consider them.  What's the point of continuing to comment?  Given no evidence that a better option EVER existed you are willing to hang onto this mantra.  Find evidence there was a better trade out there and bring it to the thread.

 

 

 

I've read and heard all the contrary opinions including Jbot's self serving statement that this was his only offer.  I wasn't in the office to hear the other trade offers, but it's pretty clear that other UFAs with similar stats, many of which were older and one dimensional received higher value at the trade deadline then Kane.  That's a fact.  You can chalk it to lack of playoff experience, past conduct or whatever.  You can chalk it up to 100 different excuses, but the fact remains, one of our prime assets just left town and in return we received three "assets", none of which are likely to make an impact on this team now or in the near future.  You can spin that fact anyway you want by saying that was the best Jbot could do in a difficult situation or that there still is a chance to get a 1st for Kane etc...., or look at how much cap space we'll save etc..... However, that doesn't replace his 5 on 5 production for the worst scoring team in the NHL.   

 

However, if you want additional evidence of the basis for my correct opinion here you go.  

 

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-sharks-get-kane-at-bargain-price-1.1011741

 

Also break down the trade into it's pieces

1) a 2nd rd pick in 2019 that will likely be around pick 45  to 55.  We have drafted there in recent years and hit on Guhle at 51, but also drafted Cornel at 44, Karabacek at 49, Luukkonen at 54, Bailey at 52 and the great Hurley at 38.  Not exactly the core of the Sabres.  Cullen says 33% or less of getting an NHL player who plays 100 games.  Also players like Luukkonen could take another 5 years to make an impact.  Ullmark is 2012 draft picks who may finally make the Sabres in 2018-19 season.  We also don't get to make this pick until after next season diminishing it's value as well.

2) 4th rd pick in 2019.  Again a pick that won't be made for 17 months, that has about a 15% chance of becoming a player. Foligno in 2009 is the last 4th rd pick to make the Sabres.

3) Danny O'Regan.  - A 24 year old "prospect."  We acquired a similar player earlier this year who is an NHL roster player with a Stanley Cup ring and only 25 for a 5th rd pick in Wilson.  Could Danny Boy become a better player then Wilson.  Sure it's possible, but it's much more likely that he is Griffith then Wilson.

 

The Bottomline is that the odds favor that we will actually have nothing to show long-term for Kane.  I'm not sure how you spin that into a positive.

Edited February 27, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[Randall Flagg]

Kane had plenty of value when we spent a haul to get him. He's just a low-IQ player, and NOT a low IQ person.

 

Also, I can't believe some people keep trucking on with some of their particular trade takes despite what has been pointed out about them.

I've read and heard all the contrary opinions including Jbot's self serving statement that this was his only offer.

 

However, if you want evidence of the basis for my correct opinion here you go.

 

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-sharks-get-kane-at-bargain-price-1.1011741

So TSN guys were tapping the phones and know all the stuff you've taken for granted and repeatedly had pointed out as being illogical to assume, especially since it goes against the grain from guys like those insiders and what they've been tweeting for the last year about the league's interest in Kane?

 

Okay, Mr. "We will never know...therefore Botterill took a catastrophic risk and failed. And that is my correct opinion." Guy.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[nfreeman]

I've read and heard all the contrary opinions including Jbot's self serving statement that this was his only offer.

 

However, if you want evidence of the basis for my correct opinion here you go.  

 

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-sharks-get-kane-at-bargain-price-1.1011741

 

There is zero evidence in the piece you linked that the Sabres could've gotten more for Kane.

[SwampD]

It’s just much easier for a troll to accuse people of racism than it is to put the time into real thought and analysis.

 

“Different outcomes for black person A and white person B? It must be racism!”

 

Weak.

When there were actual race related issues directed and black players at NHL games this year, it's also easier to just pretend that racism doesn't exist or that it played no part.

[jlevnhv]

The question isn't, "What is Kane worth," the question is, "What is 20 games of Kane worth?" If there were no other, better offers, do you just stick with Kane and keep him? San Jose felt he was worth a conditional 2nd round/4th round pick with a prospect for 20 games, and Buffalo agreed. Nobody else felt the rental was worth that much, even. His slumping form certainly didn't help.

 

It's not like keeping him for 20 games was going to help this club substantially either. A 2nd round pick with a 1 in 3 chance of becoming an NHL player is probably worth a little more to Buffalo than a 20 game player who can't do anything but get us a worse draft pick.

Edited February 27, 2018 by jlevnhv

[Stoner]

It’s just much easier for a troll to accuse people of racism than it is to put the time into real thought and analysis.

 

“Different outcomes for black person A and white person B? It must be racism!”

 

Weak.

Is this for me? If so, I didn't accuse anyone of anything. It's a fair question.

 

"Troll." The last bastion of message board POSes.

[nfreeman]

Ah yes.  The old "I didn't say 'speculate that' -- I said 'speculate whether'" compounding.  It really takes the original trolling up a notch. 

[bunomatic]

The question isn't, "What is Kane worth," the question is, "What is 20 games of Kane worth?" If there were no other, better offers, do you just stick with Kane and keep him? San Jose felt he was worth a conditional 2nd round/4th round pick with a prospect for 20 games, and Buffalo agreed. Nobody else felt the rental was worth that much, even. His slumping form certainly didn't help.

 

It's not like keeping him for 20 games was going to help this club substantially either. A 2nd round pick with a 1 in 3 chance of becoming an NHL player is probably worth a little more to Buffalo than a 20 game player who can't do anything but get us a worse draft pick.

Thats a good take and spot on. We only had him for another 20 games. He could have and would have walked. JBot got what the market would bare.

[darksabre]

Thats a good take and spot on. We only had him for another 20 games. He could have and would have walked. JBot got what the market would bare.

And JBot was never going to make a play for re-signing him, and wont be doing so this summer. Count on it. 

[That Aud Smell]

It’s just much easier for a troll to accuse people of racism than it is to put the time into real thought and analysis.

 

“Different outcomes for black person A and white person B? It must be racism!”

 

Weak.

 

This is as tired a trope as the one you're decrying.

 

The question isn't, "What is Kane worth," the question is, "What is 20 games of Kane worth?" If there were no other, better offers, do you just stick with Kane and keep him? San Jose felt he was worth a conditional 2nd round/4th round pick with a prospect for 20 games, and Buffalo agreed. Nobody else felt the rental was worth that much, even. His slumping form certainly didn't help.

 

It's not like keeping him for 20 games was going to help this club substantially either. A 2nd round pick with a 1 in 3 chance of becoming an NHL player is probably worth a little more to Buffalo than a 20 game player who can't do anything but get us a worse draft pick.

 

BOOM.

 

Is this for me? If so, I didn't accuse anyone of anything. It's a fair question.

 

"Troll." The last bastion of message board POSes.

 

How about we NOT allow that into the vernacular around here.

 

"POS" is a nasty term that should be reserved for actual PsOS. No one who posts here regularly is a POS, as far as I can tell. Qwk lobbed a "POS at the mod(s) it in a post that appeared to have been made while he was under the influence of something -- alcohol or maybe just a dark humour. Let's nip that right here, please.

[Stoner]

Ah yes.  The old "I didn't say 'speculate that' -- I said 'speculate whether'" compounding.  It really takes the original trolling up a notch. 

How do you get away with lying about what someone wrote and launching personal attacks? Seriously? Who polices the police.

 

I might owe qwk an apology.

[nfreeman]

When there were actual race related issues directed and black players at NHL games this year, it's also easier to just pretend that racism doesn't exist or that it played no part.

 

So because some d-bag fans yelled a slur at a black player, that means that 30 NHL GMs decided that black players are worth less in trade than white players?  Really?

 

Again:  these GMs are paid to win, and get canned when they don't.  Black players are traded for high yields, and are signed to fat contracts, quite frequently.  THIS black player has had multiple issues with multiple teams, as well as multiple legal scrapes involving assaults on women, and we are now in the middle of a major societal upheaval centered around that very issue.

 

The starting point should be that race is irrelevant unless there is evidence to the contrary. 

[Stoner]

This is as tired a trope as the one you're decrying.

 

 

BOOM.

 

 

How about we NOT allow that into the vernacular around here.

 

"POS" is a nasty term that should be reserved for actual PsOS. No one who posts here regularly is a POS, as far as I can tell. Qwk lobbed a "POS at the mod(s) it in a post that appeared to have been made while he was under the influence of something -- alcohol or maybe just a dark humour. Let's nip that right here, please.

One can easily be a message board POS and walk rescue dogs and read to the blind IRL.