Buffalo Bills 2018-2019

[Hoss]

24 minutes ago, FuhrUrsinne said:

My issues with trading McCoy:

1. 45 carries spread over 4 games is not a large enough data set to make a determination on McCoy's current ability. He's been averaging 3.8 yards per carry while injured, behind perhaps the worst OL in the league, and up against defenses that have been stacking the line because they do not fear a rookie QB throwing to inarguably the worst WR corps in the NFL.

2. Neither Ivory nor Murphy can replace what McCoy brings to the offense. Ivory is a completely different type of RB (old school north-south power back), and Murphy so far appears to be not nearly as good against defenses in the regular season as he is against defenses during the preseason.

3. Three fellow future Hall of Fame RB's older than McCoy are still getting it done in the NFL as feature backs: Peterson, Lynch, and Gore.

4. Perhaps the most important aspect to this season is the development of Josh Allen. Not only is McCoy the best playmaker on the offense, but he appears to be developing good locker room chemistry with Allen. It makes more sense to make an honest effort to establish a running game this season and relieve some of the pressure on Allen in having to win games through the air.

5. Rumors have the Eagles not interested in offering more than a 5th round draft pick for McCoy. This is quite simply not a high enough pick to justify losing McCoy.

6. The extra cap space is not at all needed. Beane will probably not get anywhere close to spending up to the current $90+ million cap space limit for 2019.

7. Six weeks into the season, the Bills could realistically be tied for first place in the division upon completing what many consider to be the toughest part of their schedule. Deshaun Watson is day-to-day with a chest injury. The Pats play the Chiefs on Sunday. The Dolphins play the Bears. The Buffalo defense is trending toward "elite" status and is already top-10 in several important statistical categories despite that disastrous start to the season. Buffalo's special teams feature the best kicker in the NFL. Like SwampD said, it is the nature of many Buffalo sports fans to always be thinking about building for a more hopeful future rather than living in the present moment and focusing on winning now. It's a mindset that has been molded in part by a 17-year NFL playoff drought and a 7+ year NHL playoff drought. But it's one that needs to stop. Franchise rebuilding projects need not be based on stockpiling super-high draft picks over geological timespans. If Beane, McDermott, JB, Housley, and the Pegulas really want to talk about changing locker room cultures...start by winning games and raising expectations.

1. This is fine. Their best offensive game was without McCoy and they’re terrible with or without him but more time could be needed.

2. I think what McCoy has done to this point is extremely easy to replace.

3. You say 45 carries in four games isn’t enough for McCoy but then call Gore a “feature back” despite him only having 47 carries in five games. Also, as an AP fantasy owner, I can tell you he also isn’t REALLY “getting it done.” He had six yards this week. 20 in week two. He had 96 and 120 in the other weeks which is great but he’s clearly well over the hill.

Note that all three of those guys are also not reliant on their speed and shiftiness (Lynch being the third).

4. I’m not sure I want McCoy leading my rookie QB.

5. The report was by Clayton and he was just guessing on what the cost would be. He seems to be the only one thinking the price would be this low.

6. You can never have enough cap space when you’re trying to flip a roster.

7. This team can win the next two games but after that they’ll run into a wall. They’re not near last year and last year’s team was a terrible group that lucked into the playoffs.

[PalmTreeMafia]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

1. This is fine. Their best offensive game was without McCoy and they’re terrible with or without him but more time could be needed.

2. I think what McCoy has done to this point is extremely easy to replace.

3. You say 45 carries in four games isn’t enough for McCoy but then call Gore a “feature back” despite him only having 47 carries in five games. Also, as an AP fantasy owner, I can tell you he also isn’t REALLY “getting it done.” He had six yards this week. 20 in week two. He had 96 and 120 in the other weeks which is great but he’s clearly well over the hill.

Note that all three of those guys are also not reliant on their speed and shiftiness (Lynch being the third).

4. I’m not sure I want McCoy leading my rookie QB.

5. The report was by Clayton and he was just guessing on what the cost would be. He seems to be the only one thinking the price would be this low.

6. You can never have enough cap space when you’re trying to flip a roster.

7. This team can win the next two games but after that they’ll run into a wall. They’re not near last year and last year’s team was a terrible group that lucked into the playoffs.

1. Yes, as you admit, more time might be needed. It is very possible that a rookie QB, first-year OC (for the Bills), and an OL with two new interior starters will get better at their respective jobs as the season progresses beyond 5 games. Their improvements should, in turn, help increase McCoy's production. 

2. My point was that McCoy's influence on the offense also goes beyond his own actual production. His mere presence on the field changes how the defense aligns itself pre-snap. McCoy adds new dimensions to a playbook that Ivory's presence can't replicate. And no DC in the NFL fears Murphy, while many still do gameplan specifically for McCoy.

3. Fair enough, but I'm only saying that I'm not sure McCoy has quite hit that infamous RB "age wall" just because he is on the wrong side of the arbitrary number of 30. I need more data. And I'm not suggesting that McCoy can return to his first-team all-pro days. But is he still a top-10 NFL RB? Very possible.

4. Is this a reference to his alleged off-the-field troubles with trashy women? None of those allegatons will stick in a court of law. The fundamentals of the American legal system haven't changed, even in the #MeToo era. In the locker room, McCoy is unanimously praised for his work ethic and professionalism. Coaches and teammates love the guy and elected him as their captain.

5. Thanks for the clarification on that one. I remember a time when trading Lynch for a 4th and a conditional 5th looked like an absolute steal for the Bills. Maybe this haunting memory clouds my judgment on any prospective McCoy trade.

6. Yes you can. We can have a very detailed debate on this one...maybe some other time...but in short, I think the Bills are a high-priced #1 WR, a high-priced G, a few relatively inexpensive filler free agents, another draft like the previous two, a Jared Goff-like sophomore year development trajectory for Allen, and a Brady physical decline from being a Super Bowl contender next season. All of this won't require $90+ million of cap space.

7. They'll hit a wall for their final 9 games? For one thing, 6 of those are at home and all 9 are in the Eastern time zone. Brady is the only elite QB they will face. The defense has been performing like a top-5 unit for the past 14 quarters. Like I mentioned above, there is reason to believe the offense can progress from "historically bad" to "good enough." The 2018 Bills are the same or better than the 2017 Bills at every position except QB, LG, and C. More experience in the Daboll system for Miller and Bodine can help narrow that gap in OL talent. If Allen can cut down on the interceptions, he will easily surpass Tyrod Taylor's low QB ceiling.

Edited October 10, 2018 by FuhrUrsinne

[nfreeman]

Good stuff Fuhr.

I too have no desire to trade Shady for futures or to write off this season.  I think McCoy still has plenty left to give, and getting rid of one of their few good offensive players would not be good for Allen.  More broadly, they have a winnable game on Sunday.  If they get to 3-3, a repeat of last season is possible.  And no one who has observed the Sabres in recent years should want a team that he or she cares about to bottom out ever again.

[That Aud Smell]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Good stuff Fuhr.

I too have no desire to trade Shady for futures or to write off this season.  I think McCoy still has plenty left to give, and getting rid of one of their few good offensive players would not be good for Allen.  More broadly, they have a winnable game on Sunday.  If they get to 3-3, a repeat of last season is possible.  And no one who has observed the Sabres in recent years should want a team that he or she cares about to bottom out ever again.

I am somewhat surprised to find myself at a tipping point with this as well. Typically, I'd be all for moving a player on an expiring contract under these kinds of circumstances (i.e., the Bills are almost certainly going nowhere because, to date, they have one of the worst offences in modern NFL history).

But ... man. The message such a trade would send to the team. That's a lot of players. Many of them are gonna be around for a while. I know that arm chair asset managers feel like they know what's best as an abstract matter. But I really get the sense that this sort of thing matters to the players. And this seems a sight different than Watkins and Darby.

[darksabre]

3 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I am somewhat surprised to find myself at a tipping point with this as well. Typically, I'd be all for moving a player on an expiring contract under these kinds of circumstances (i.e., the Bills are almost certainly going nowhere because, to date, they have one of the worst offences in modern NFL history).

But ... man. The message such a trade would send to the team. That's a lot of players. Many of them are gonna be around for a while. I know that arm chair asset managers feel like they know what's best as an abstract matter. But I really get the sense that this sort of thing matters to the players. And this seems a sight different than Watkins and Darby.

My preference would be to trade him in the offseason. But I don't think that's necessarily the right time to get the best value for him. 

It would absolutely change the character of the team. They'll just have to get over it. 

[That Aud Smell]

I also just realized he's got a year left on his deal, after this one.

[Randall Flagg]

My one concern wouldn't be the football quality, which has been historically bad with him, it would be what Aud mentions about the locker room.

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

My one concern wouldn't be the football quality, which has been historically bad with him, it would be what Aud mentions about the locker room.

Are you saying he hasn't been a good player for Buffalo?

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

Are you saying he hasn't been a good player for Buffalo?

This season, due to many things outside of his control, he hasn't been effective.

I don't mean for that to extend to the past. He's probably, what, the second best Bills player I've ever seen? How good was Peters when he was here? And Mario at his peak. 

[That Aud Smell]

48 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

He's probably, what, the second best Bills player I've ever seen? How good was Peters when he was here? And Mario at his peak. 

[nfreeman]

I'll just point out for the record that for an old guy, Aud Smell's GIF game is razor sharp.

[TrueBlueGED]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

This season, due to many things outside of his control, he hasn't been effective.

I don't mean for that to extend to the past. He's probably, what, the second best Bills player I've ever seen? How good was Peters when he was here? And Mario at his peak. 

Peters is the best Bill of the post-Kelly era. I don't even think it's especially close. 

[WildCard]

5 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Peters is the best Bill of the post-Kelly era. I don't even think it's especially close. 

Kyle Orton

[shrader]

Just now, WildCard said:

Kyle Orton

Brian Moorman

[Randall Flagg]

37 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

My first season watching was 2005. What glaring names am I missing? 

15 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Peters is the best Bill of the post-Kelly era. I don't even think it's especially close. 

Thanks. Since I was 10-13 in the stretch he was here, the nuances of the offensive tackle position escaped my awareness. 

 

[shrader]

4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

My first season watching was 2005.

 

Why would anyone do that willingly?  I can find some acid for you to pour into your eyes while you're at it.

[That Aud Smell]

27 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

My first season watching was 2005.

[nfreeman]

Eric Wood in the Athletic today:

Quote

 

[Trading McCoy] would be really tough to stomach in the Bills’ locker room. It would bring back a similar feeling to last year, when they traded Sammy Watkins and Ronald Darby at the end of training camp.

The players will wonder, “If we’re trying to field the best team we can and we really believe we can make a run at the playoffs again, then why are we trading our best player?”

...

If they get to 3-3, that locker room will be thinking, “Hey, can we make the playoffs two years in a row, playing sound defensive football and efficient offense?”

That’s something they’ll need to consider in trading LeSean because they are worse without him, and so much more of the responsibility would fall on the rookie quarterback’s shoulders.

 

 

[Randall Flagg]

The rookie QB's best game was when shady was in street clothes

 

but the points are fair.

 

tangent, but is Tre White our best current player? I think he could be.

[That Aud Smell]

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

tangent, but is Tre White our best current player? I think he could be.

cold gotsta be.

[inkman]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The rookie QB's best game was when shady was in street clothes

 

but the points are fair.

 

tangent, but is Tre White our best current player? I think he could be.

As a recent first round draft pick should be

[TrueBlueGED]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The rookie QB's best game was when shady was in street clothes

 

but the points are fair.

 

tangent, but is Tre White our best current player? I think he could be.

I think Jerry Hughes and McCoy have to be in the conversation, but I'm not really going to argue against White. 

[Hoss]

The gap between Tre White and the current second-best player on the team is bigger than the gap between Jason Peters and the second-best Bills player during the post-Kelly era.

[PalmTreeMafia]

2 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

My first season watching was 2005. What glaring names am I missing? 

Thanks. Since I was 10-13 in the stretch he was here, the nuances of the offensive tackle position escaped my awareness. 

 

 

I think McCoy is the best performing Buffalo Bill since 2005. He spearheaded the clear #1 rushing offense in the NFL during his first 2 years here and made the Pro Bowl all 3 seasons. Greg Roman was very innovative and did an outstanding job of maximizing the skill set of McCoy and complementing him with a running QB (Taylor) and a power RB (Karlos Williams, Gillislee). Daboll should have taken some game film notes from those 2 years.

Owens, Peters, and Lynch are future Hall of Famers, but they weren't performing at elite levels while with the Bills (Peters was beginning to do so, but it didn't seem to lead to any actual results on the field due to the incompetence of Jauron, Losman, and Trent).

Moorman was the best punter in the NFL for quite a while, but some may be biased against special teamers in this discussion.

Maybe Schobel? He seemed to perform at a consistent Pro Bowl level for his entire career. Very underrated.

How about the Buffalo Bills Cold Front from 2013-14? Wood and Incognito from 2015-16? The Hyde/Poyer/White secondary?

We also saw singularly great seasons from Byrd (2009), Spiller (2012), and Alexander (2016).

Maybe I'm missing some other names....a whole lot of bad football was played here in the 21st century, so a lot of these seasons tend to blur together for me. The 1990's Bills are so much clearer in my memory. My first year following this team was 1989. I remember the Bickering Bills well and how down I was about the state of my team...

[Randall Flagg]

2 minutes ago, FuhrUrsinne said:

 

I think McCoy is the best performing Buffalo Bill since 2005. He spearheaded the clear #1 rushing offense in the NFL during his first 2 years here and made the Pro Bowl all 3 seasons. Greg Roman was very innovative and did an outstanding job of maximizing the skill set of McCoy and complementing him with a running QB (Taylor) and a power RB (Karlos Williams, Gillislee). Daboll should have taken some game film notes from those 2 years.

Owens, Peters, and Lynch are future Hall of Famers, but they weren't performing at elite levels while with the Bills (Peters was beginning to do so, but it didn't seem to lead to any actual results on the field due to the incompetence of Jauron, Losman, and Trent).

Moorman was the best punter in the NFL for quite a while, but some may be biased against special teamers in this discussion.

Maybe Schobel? He seemed to perform at a consistent Pro Bowl level for his entire career. Very underrated.

How about the Buffalo Bills Cold Front from 2013-14? Wood and Incognito from 2015-16? The Hyde/Poyer/White secondary?

We also saw singularly great seasons from Byrd (2009), Spiller (2012), and Alexander (2016).

Maybe I'm missing some other names....a whole lot of bad football was played here in the 21st century, so a lot of these seasons tend to blur together for me. The 1990's Bills are so much clearer in my memory. My first year following this team was 1989. I remember the Bickering Bills well and how down I was about the state of my team...

Interesting thoughts. Mario's 2014 season in particular is one that I"ll remember for a long time.