TrueBlueGED Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 If I had asked you the same question about Favre or Marino or others before they were drafted, what would you have said ? And how did they turn out ? Well, I wasn't born yet when Marino was drafted, so I don't think I'd have said much of anything. And when Favre was drafted, I was 5, so not much there either. Are you capable of coming up with examples of players who aren't currently in the HoF? Because if you're not, then you're basically arguing Allen is going to be a HoFer based on 2 historical examples of incredible outliers. The overwhelming majority of QBs who are inaccurate in college continue to be inaccurate in the pros. Quote
Gramps Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 (edited) Well, I wasn't born yet when Marino was drafted, so I don't think I'd have said much of anything. And when Favre was drafted, I was 5, so not much there either. Are you capable of coming up with examples of players who aren't currently in the HoF? Because if you're not, then you're basically arguing Allen is going to be a HoFer based on 2 historical examples of incredible outliers. The overwhelming majority of QBs who are inaccurate in college continue to be inaccurate in the pros. Has nothing to do with whether Allen will become a HOFer. Has all to do with the translation of college accuracy # to the pro level. Jim Kelly is another - have a look at his stats at the U. Warner another. How many examples do you need of highly-rated accurate college QBs that were busts in the pros ? There are hundreds I'm sure. Start with Bortles. Would you have wanted Bortles on the Bills ? Flacco ? Tannehill ? All pretty good college stats. You have no idea if Allen will be Elway or Favre or Ryan Leaf. Same as me. Edited March 5, 2018 by Gramps Quote
TrueBlueGED Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 Has nothing to do with whether Allen will become a HOFer. Has all to do with the translation of college accuracy # to the pro level. Jim Kelly is another - have a look at his stats at the U. Warner another. How many examples do you need of highly-rated accurate college QBs that were busts in the pros ? There are hundreds I'm sure. Start with Bortles. Would you have wanted Bortles on the Bills ? Flacco ? Tannehill ? All pretty good college stats. You have no idea if Allen will be Elway or Favre or Ryan Leaf. Same as me. So you're saying college stats are useless? I agree! Allen is not an accurate passer. He doesn't throw with anticipation. He doesn't make quick decisions. That's not all getting fixed. I will happily bet any amount of money you'd like on a charity bet that he doesn't sniff Elway's jock. Quote
Randall Flagg Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 Then why does the NFL even hold a combine for QB's ? but you are probably right about this. If the bills stick with pick 20 and Allen is the only one available, would you take him or pass ? Yeah but for the same reason I 'd stay away from Darnold, even mayfield is in doubt if you guy by these assumptions. Lamar jackon's stock went up a lot then. So you only trade up for rosen and pick jackson if he drops to 21 ? I think the combine is good for some things, I just have an issue with leaning on the throwing drills when game tape heavily suggests the opposite conclusions. I would pass on Allen in the first two rounds. Darnold's throwing motion has me against moving up for him when I was previously willing to do so, but I would probably take him if we stayed put and he somehow fell (he won't). I would trade up for Rosen or Mayfield (not as high) and I would not pick Jackson until the 4th round or later because I also think he has a lot of accuracy issues. If we don't get Mayfield or Rosen in the first round then I simply don't take a QB unless it's late and some guy fell a lot. But I try as hard as possible to go and get Mayfield/Rosen. His stats says quite the opposite. 44 TDs to 21 Ints in his two years as a starter, 16/6 last season on a mediocre team. Show me a scouting report from a reputable source that agrees with you. I haven't seen one and I've looked. Don't simply base your opinion on completion %. We have shown you two small time college QBs with similar numbers (Farve and Warner) that did ok in the pros. I can't even tell you Allen's completion percentage. I don't give a about his stats. I WATCHED him play, and his lack of anticipation and decision-making, and inability to hit his receivers in stride when he does throw, and just plain fear in the face of pressure, was alarming considering how weak his opponents were. You're the only one looking at stats like they mean anything. I'm talking about how the dude plays football. Favre wasn't the smartest QB but he was far more accurate and consistent with his ability to hit his guys in stride in all regions of the field, and Favre had touch, and Favre was the opposite of afraid when rushed. He made his decision and threw the ball, and was good enough at throwing it that the net result was positive, even if as a "gunslinger" he also threw a lot of picks and made a lot of questionable decisions. I quite frankly can't imagine how someone can watch Allen play football, watch Favre play in the NFL OR college, and compare them in any way, shape, or form. Allen looks like Losman's arm/head with post-concussion Trent Edwards' pocket presence. Quote
JujuFish Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 Has nothing to do with whether Allen will become a HOFer. Has all to do with the translation of college accuracy # to the pro level. Jim Kelly is another - have a look at his stats at the U. Warner another. How many examples do you need of highly-rated accurate college QBs that were busts in the pros ? There are hundreds I'm sure. Start with Bortles. You have no idea if Allen will be Elway or Favre or Ryan Leaf. Same as me. I had to dig this up from a Numberfire article I remember reading about Bortles leading up to his draft: For Bortles, none of his statistics really jump out of the page at you. Of the 52 quarterbacks in the study, Bortles ranked 14th in games played, 14th in adjusted QBR (out of 24), 21st in passer efficiency rating, and 28th in adjusted yards per attempt. It's about as blah as you can get. The obvious reason that Bortles is so highly sought after is the fact that he is just a large human being. However, you would think that, if this height was such a grotesque advantage, it would have translated into grotesque stats as well. Quote
Gramps Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 (edited) So you're saying college stats are useless? I agree! Allen is not an accurate passer. He doesn't throw with anticipation. He doesn't make quick decisions. That's not all getting fixed. I will happily bet any amount of money you'd like on a charity bet that he doesn't sniff Elway's jock. Sorry, don't bet anymore after losing my Buff State student loan money in the late 70s. Time will tell on Allen. I hope he succeeds wherever he ends up. And I don't know who the right QB is for the Bills to draft ... but guaranteed some folks on this board will not be happy. I had to dig this up from a Numberfire article I remember reading about Bortles leading up to his draft: For Bortles, none of his statistics really jump out of the page at you. Of the 52 quarterbacks in the study, Bortles ranked 14th in games played, 14th in adjusted QBR (out of 24), 21st in passer efficiency rating, and 28th in adjusted yards per attempt. It's about as blah as you can get. The obvious reason that Bortles is so highly sought after is the fact that he is just a large human being. However, you would think that, if this height was such a grotesque advantage, it would have translated into grotesque stats as well. On the right team, Bortles is fine. And height is a good thing for a QB to a point - IMO, I don't think Tom Brady would've been drafted at all if he was 5'11". Edited March 5, 2018 by Gramps Quote
JujuFish Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 On the right team, Bortles is fine. And height is a good thing for a QB to a point - IMO, I don't think Tom Brady would've been drafted at all if he was 5'11". So which is it? Bortles is fine, or Bortles is an example of a "highly-rated accurate college QB" that was a bust in the pros? Quote
Gramps Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 So which is it? Bortles is fine, or Bortles is an example of a "highly-rated accurate college QB" that was a bust in the pros? Depends who you ask. Bortles might win a SB with the Jags like Flacco did with the Ravens. Most would say Tom Coughlin is a pretty astute football mind and he resigned Bortles. Must see something. Quote
JujuFish Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 Depends who you ask. Bortles might win a SB with the Jags like Flacco did with the Ravens. Most would say Tom Coughlin is a pretty astute football mind and he resigned Bortles. Must see something. I'm asking you. You said Bortles was a highly-rated accurate college QB who turned into a bust, then followed that by saying he is fine. Quote
Gramps Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 I'm asking you. You said Bortles was a highly-rated accurate college QB who turned into a bust, then followed that by saying he is fine. You're right - he's a bust that would be great on the right team. Just like Flacco and Trent Dilfer. Quote
WildCard Posted March 5, 2018 Author Report Posted March 5, 2018 You're right - he's a bust that would be great on the right team. Just like Flacco and Trent Dilfer. Trent Dilfer was never great Quote
Randall Flagg Posted March 5, 2018 Report Posted March 5, 2018 (edited) Accuracy as measured by completion percentage has gotten better from college to NFL, but Matt Ryan throwing whatever he did that's in the same ballpark as Allen doesn't mean that Allen is close to Matt Ryan's accuracy/ball placement/touch. If you watch each of them in college you see a guy that obviously has the tools (not brute arm strength, but ability to read defenses and make decisions) and a guy that is a complete wreck. The guys whose low completion percentages translated showed far more in the tape than Allen ever has. Edited March 5, 2018 by Randall Flagg Quote
Brawndo Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Peter King and Mike Florio have reported a team has made the offer of a second to Philly for Nick Foles. This is from Incarcerated Bob **BREAKING NFL NEWS** Bills are confirmed as team that offered 2nd rd pick for Foles Two more teams are monitoring situation and offers could be imminent #Eagles listening, likely will try to get teams into bidding war #NFL Quote
TrueBlueGED Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Peter King and Mike Florio have reported a team has made the offer of a second to Philly for Nick Foles. This is from Incarcerated Bob **BREAKING NFL NEWS** Bills are confirmed as team that offered 2nd rd pick for Foles Two more teams are monitoring situation and offers could be imminent #Eagles listening, likely will try to get teams into bidding war #NFL Please stab me in the face. Quote
Brawndo Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Please stab me in the face. I know, I do not want this at all. I would rather over draft Kyle Lauletta or Mike White then make this move Quote
Gramps Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 I know, I do not want this at all. I would rather over draft Kyle Lauletta or Mike White then make this move Didn't IB also report that TT was staying with the Bills ? Quote
Weave Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Please stab me in the face. I almost want this to happen just for the LULZ here. Quote
Randall Flagg Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Maybe he just read it wrong and it's a 5th. Quote
TrueBlueGED Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 I almost want this to happen just for the LULZ here. You're a mean, mean man. Quote
That Aud Smell Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Didn’t Foles almost retire from the NFL in order to become a minister? Yep. I’m sure McDermott wants him. Quote
Brawndo Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Didn't IB also report that TT was staying with the Bills ? Yeah in February 2017 when he re-signed with the Bills Quote
darksabre Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Didn’t Foles almost retire from the NFL in order to become a minister? Yep. I’m sure McDermott wants him. Oh no you didn't Quote
Randall Flagg Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Also that tweet is super suspect. It's some dude named incarcerated bob saying someone offered philly a second, and some other jabroni commenting the single word"Bills" Quote
Gramps Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 Also that tweet is super suspect. It's some dude named incarcerated bob saying someone offered philly a second, and some other jabroni commenting the single word "Bills" IB said it himself here .. https://twitter.com/incarceratedbob/status/970799705801285632 Quote
Randall Flagg Posted March 6, 2018 Report Posted March 6, 2018 IB said it himself here .. https://twitter.com/incarceratedbob/status/970799705801285632 He said that after rando commented "Bills" by itself on the original tweet which didn't say which team. Quote
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