Game Discussion Thread Sabres at Blackhawks, 12/8/2017, 8:30 pm ET

[dudacek]

From this mornings Buffalo News:

 

Hearing the pain in Eichel's voice, Lehner told the media he needed a moment before he spoke. He went across the room to Eichel and tapped him on the knee. Eichel spoke briefly to Lehner about how he had stolen the game and the team couldn't win it for him.

 

"He played great. He was the best player on the ice for both teams, for us and them," Eichel said of Lehner. "We've got to be better for him. We've got to find a way to get two points in this game. He kept us in it."

 

....Lehner has stopped 83 of 88 shots the last two games. There's not much more than can be asked of him.

 

"I felt good today. I've been feeling good lately," Lehner said. "It's tough when we're not getting wins. I work hard in practice to try to improve my game and I think everyone is. That's what matters."

 

"Oh my God. It's been that way a little bit too much," said Jason Pominville, who broke the Sabres' 0-for-30 power play slump with a first-period goal off an Eichel feed. "He's played really well for us. Tonight was a great example of it. He battled, made some great saves and kept us in it."

[Weave]

This is what Buffalo sports message boards seem to be about nowadays: always wanting to lose for higher draft picks, always wanting to trade away players for more draft picks and prospects, always wanting to build for a future that never comes, never actually caring that much about winning games in the moment. I wonder if Buffalo Sabres/Bills internet boards were this bad in the 90's, back when our teams actually did win with some regularity.

 

Personally, I'd much rather go on a few win streaks and have our players begin meeting expectations rather than increase our lottery chances by about 5-10%.

 

Perfect.

 

#cultureoflosing

 

draft picks.  Let's make some hockey trades and start winning again.

 

In 03-04 there wasn't this stupid fan cry for losing to get better picks.  The team was lousy to mediocre until late January when they figured it out and went on an 8-1 streak.  They stayed hot until the Conference Finals the next season.

We don't need more picks.  We need this team to find some legs.

[Stoner]

You're doing some good strawmanning, uh, Mick... no one's saying he didn't have a good game. I don't know who you think is blaming him for the loss. It was a bad goal at a bad time, it's his MO. How much energy are we going to put into some kind of goalie controversy? Is there any chance Lehner is going to be back?

[Thorner]

Perfect.

 

#cultureoflosing

 

###### draft picks. Let's make some hockey trades and start winning again.

 

In 03-04 there wasn't this stupid fan cry for losing to get better picks. The team was lousy to mediocre until late January when they figured it out and went on an 8-1 streak. They stayed hot until the Conference Finals the next season.

 

We don't need more picks. We need this team to find some legs.

What's funny is I remember that 03-04 team really well, and I remember thinking they would have done some damage had they made the playoffs, they finished on such a hot streak. And the full-season lockout was the next year. It's been said that 05-06 came out of nowhere, but 03-04 shows it was being built towards, and continued through the lockout.

 

I agree - we need to be hoping for a run. For our guys to finish the season playing well.

 

It certainly seems to have worked for the Jets to end last season/start this season.

 

How many softies from the blue line in the 3rd period (or OT) does Lehner have to give up before people stop apologizing for him?

 

When the Sabres have a lead in the 3rd period, we all know he's going to let one in.

 

He doesn't have what is needed upstairs to close out games.

 

I guaran-damn-tee that he's not their goalie next year.

You're doing some good strawmanning, uh, Mick... no one's saying he didn't have a good game. I don't know who you think is blaming him for the loss. It was a bad goal at a bad time, it's his MO. How much energy are we going to put into some kind of goalie controversy? Is there any chance Lehner is going to be back?

That post there from our own Mr. Freeman read to me like he was blaming Lehner for the loss. I could be wrong, but I'm still interpreting it that way as I re-read it. The context there is that the above was his first take posted on the result of the game.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Bjorn Borg

[nfreeman]

And that's what they got yesterday. A .941 sv%. You can talk about his season numbers all you want, you won't find much argument. But looking at just yesterday's game, he literally kept them in a game they had no business being in. It doesn't matter that he gave up a late goal to lose, in that they shouldn't have even been in that spot in the first place and only were because of him.

 

For pete's sake, pick your battles with regards to Lehner. Chiming in as usual to blame him for the loss yesterday just belittles your entire argument.

 

Blame him when he's at fault, of which there are numerous instances. Not when he's the only reason we had a chance. The average goalie YESTERDAY doesn't make 48 saves, and we lose by more.

 

OK.  If you don't agree with the 'key saves at key times" view, or the likelihood that his teammates know that he's going to give up a softy late in the game, and that that knowledge negatively affects their play, I don't know what else to say.  You are certainly welcome to your opinions.  I just disagree with them. 

 

 

 

On the list of NHL starters I saw, Lehner was 20th in save %, ahead of the defending Stanley Cup champion Matt Murray, best goalie in hockey Carey Price, and guy we should have acquired instead Cam Talbot.

 

He’s not terrible. He’s a mediocre goalie on a ###### team.

Dom’s teams didn’t play well in front of him. His play gave the illusion they were playing well.

 

 

Similarly, I just disagree with this.  These players aren't robots.  Most of what drives success or failure is what is between the ears IMHO.  They play with more confidence -- and thus better -- when they know they have a good goalie behind them.

[Thorner]

OK. If you don't agree with the 'key saves at key times" view, or the likelihood that his teammates know that he's going to give up a softy late in the game, and that that knowledge negatively affects their play, I don't know what else to say. You are certainly welcome to your opinions. I just disagree with them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Similarly, I just disagree with this. These players aren't robots. Most of what drives success or failure is what is between the ears IMHO. They play with more confidence -- and thus better -- when they know they have a good goalie behind them.

I just think it's all about context. Each game has to be viewed individually. I agree that key saves at key times are important, but we have to look at the entire game in context. Before giving up a bad goal, he had made 48 saves out of 50 shots. On the whole, we can't ask for any more from a starter. There are always going to be mistakes, but when a goalie has a .941 SV% he's more than making up for those mistakes.

 

Your average goaltender has us behind by a few goals before that OT even becomes a reality. He gives up a bad goal, but he gave the Sabres more of a chance to win then they deserved, before that point. One bad goal doesn't negate the performance as a whole.

 

Just like one bad shootout attempt from Jack doesn't negate the good game he had.

 

We have to look at the entire body of work for each game.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Bjorn Borg

[nfreeman]

 

That post there from our own Mr. Freeman read to me like he was blaming Lehner for he loss. I could be wrong, but I'm still interpreting it that way as I re-read it.

 

 

I can see why you interpreted my post that way, but my meaning was not to blame Lehner for the loss.  It was simply to point out that a good goalie does not continually let in softies in the 3rd and OT, which Lehner undeniably does. 

[Thorner]

I'll finish it by saying it's tough to hold Lehner responsible for a loss like yesterday when his opportunity for success is almost unacheivable. He's being put in the ridiculously difficult position where his opportunity for success is unfairly minimal. Making 48/51 saves wasn't good enough. If a team is giving up that many shots, it better be because they are playing a freewheeling game and peppering the other goalie with shots as well. They'd have a great chance to win as their goalie is more than holding up their end of the bargain. But that's not what they were doing.

 

I'll take a .941% hands down, every time, regardless of when the goals are being given up. It means the goalie is saving MORE than we can reasonably expect him to, and that he's doing his part to uphold a win.

 

I can see why you interpreted my post that way, but my meaning was not to blame Lehner for the loss.  It was simply to point out that a good goalie does not continually let in softies in the 3rd and OT, which Lehner undeniably does.

 

Fair enough.

 

And your point about the mental aspect re: the other players is a good one. But I'd wager it goes both ways: Lehner is going to be extra nervous knowing his team scores so little. He knows his margin for error is unbelievably thin every game, and those would be tough conditions to play in.

[dudacek]

You're doing some good strawmanning, uh, Mick... no one's saying he didn't have a good game. I don't know who you think is blaming him for the loss. It was a bad goal at a bad time, it's his MO. How much energy are we going to put into some kind of goalie controversy? Is there any chance Lehner is going to be back?

 

I’m trying to point out that he wouldn’t let bad goals in at bad times nearly as much if he wasn’t good enough to keep this horrible team close. If you are up 4-1 and your team is in control, nobody cares if you let in a softie late. As our resident Miller-basher, you should understand that better than most. If you are down 4-1 no one remembers.

 

Call it strawmanning if you want, but I am responding to what I perceive: that the Lehner-bashing every time we lose a tight one is blaming him for the loss. These posts don’t usually happen when it’s Johnson, and they didn’t happen when it was Neuvirth or the horde of other Swedes that have come through here since Miller left.

 

I’m trying to make the point that his play is rarely the reason we lose. People seem to think there are all kinds of goalies floating around out there that would be a significant upgrade. I don’t see it. There’s 10 or 15 and another 20 who are just like Lehner.

 

We might get lucky, but chances are his replacement isn’t going to be an upgrade.

 

I can see why you interpreted my post that way, but my meaning was not to blame Lehner for the loss. It was simply to point out that a good goalie does not continually let in softies in the 3rd and OT, which Lehner undeniably does.

 

I certainly interpreted that way. Clarification understood and mostly agreed with.

He does. Miller did to. Millers usually didn’t matter.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Mick O’Manly

[WildCard]

@ByMHarrington

#Sabres call it a day at practice. Lots of chatter. Hardly morose like you might think.

[Cityo'Rasmii]

Despite what we might think or say or analyze or pontificate, I believe in my heart of hearts that these guys (for the most part) are digging in. . .

 

go Sabres

[Taro T]

OK. If you don't agree with the 'key saves at key times" view, or the likelihood that his teammates know that he's going to give up a softy late in the game, and that that knowledge negatively affects their play, I don't know what else to say. You are certainly welcome to your opinions. I just disagree with them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Similarly, I just disagree with this. These players aren't robots. Most of what drives success or failure is what is between the ears IMHO. They play with more confidence -- and thus better -- when they know they have a good goalie behind them.

While there may be merit to the theory that Lehner being so bad in the SO carries over to the rest of the team as they are practicing them against a guy that will get beat by a move the vast majority of goalies won't be beat by; there was no indication in Friday's game that the team lost because they don't trust him.

 

Teams that don't trust the goalie don't put themselves in the position to give uo a SH goal w/ 3 minutes left - those teams rag the puck in the zone & only try to score if it is a lock. They had a PS in OT that could've won the game 2 minutes before they lost. In that game, IMHO, they weren't distrusting Lehner.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Taro T

[MattPie]

That "softie" was deflected by Risto just a few feet in front of Lehner. Human reaction time isn't fast enough to adjust to that. It's not an excuse. It's a fact. One you obviously are unaware of. That's why NHL players try to deflect shots.

 

It's amazing that after all the turnovers in our end, defensive lapses, giving up a 3P shorty and our star player pulling his pud on a game-winning penalty shot, you decide to hang the loss on our goalie who stood on his head, covering up for his Keystone cops teammates, all game. Wow. Just wow.

 

Lehner played a great game. He also let in a softie in OT. The puck went directly under his pad along the ice, granted while being screened. Screened goalies make saves on pucks along the ice all the time.