Worst Sabres Team Ever?

[eman]

Well Jack is signed for the next 8 years so... can't be to angry

 

Signed means nothing when his agent approaches the GM and requests a trade. Maybe not in the next year or 2, but if we are still bottom feeders after that, expect to "hear things" and "read things" in the media indicating a Sabre player is making noise that he wants out. Other teams may just be willing to cough up for a player of Jack's calibre. Maybe the Sabres eat a part of the contract to move a disgruntled star. It's happened. Anyhow, I don;t want to see that happen. I want Jack here for some good times and some success. Right now, we are watching a star being wasted.

[LGR4GM]

I'm sorry but are you joking? "Others teams may just be willing to cough up for a player of Jack's caliber" that sentence implies they also might not. If a 24 year old Eichel hit the market there would be 30 nhl teams calling on him. And buffalo wouldn't have to eat Jack of that contract. That's 2 firsts. Your best prospect and a rostered player.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Skurk Liger

[LGR4GM]

What are their credentials, please inform me. What have they really done except be part of winning organizations?

 

 

You really are a miserable, rotten SOB.

Jason Botterill is spoken of extremely highly from the pens organization. He worked there for years and did good work. He learned from a successful gm and franchise. Edited April 5, 2018 by Skurk Liger

[Eleven]

What are their credentials, please inform me. What have they really done except be part of winning organizations? 

 

 

You really are a miserable, rotten SOB.

 

I gave you their credentials.  One was the assistant GM of a Cup winner.  The other, an assistant coach on a finalist. (I'll note that the winningest coach in team history came from a similar situation.) As I said, and as you have failed to address, both of those situations are common stepping stones to head jobs.

 

Query what potential GMs and coaches with "credentials" were available.  Were they going to resurrect Toe Blake?  Pay Chicago to get Stan Bowman?  Kidnap Mike Babcock?  And let's not forget that "credentials" don't mean everything anyway.  Remember the coach from last year?  Did he have the credentials you want?

[darksabre]

 

 

You really are a miserable, rotten SOB.

 

[SwampD]

We need 9 more goals in the next two games (highly unlikely), to not fall short of last year's "Dreary Dan play to not lose player coddling style" tally.

 

Ugh.

[eman]

I'm sorry but are you joking? "Others teams may just be willing to cough up for a player of Jack's caliber" that sentence implies they also might not. If a 24 year old Eichel hit the market there would be 30 nhl teams calling on him. And buffalo wouldn't have to eat Jack ###### of that contract. That's 2 firsts. Your best prospect and a rostered player.

 

Basically that's what I'm saying. Don't think because he signed for 8 years he would be staying for the entire duration. If things stay crappy here, he'll want out soon enough and it very well could happen. others seem to believe that just isn't the case. It's my main worry.

[Marvelo]

I gave you their credentials.  One was the assistant GM of a Cup winner.  The other, an assistant coach on a finalist. (I'll note that the winningest coach in team history came from a similar situation.) As I said, and as you have failed to address, both of those situations are common stepping stones to head jobs.

 

Query what potential GMs and coaches with "credentials" were available.  Were they going to resurrect Toe Blake?  Pay Chicago to get Stan Bowman?  Kidnap Mike Babcock?  And let's not forget that "credentials" don't mean everything anyway.  Remember the coach from last year?  Did he have the credentials you want?

 

After changing the horses in midstream last summer, I didn't want assistants, guys who were newbies at their NHL promotion. I wanted guys who had lots of experience at their jobs. Guys who knew the ropes already, not someone being given a chance at getting a promotion. This has been a last place team for years. They needed crisis managers, guys in the top positions who could withstand a lot of pressure, accurately assess the problems and act on it, despite opposition. You notice that it doesn't look like Nashville and the Penguins missed these two guys at all, mainly because they have good organizations.

 

 I don't have answers. This long-time chaotic situation in Buffalo is so perplexing. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Marvelo

[Randall Flagg]

We need 9 more goals in the next two games (highly unlikely), to not fall short of last year's "Dreary Dan play to not lose player coddling style" tally.

 

Ugh.

And yet somehow this horrific team has more even strength goals than Dreary Dan's play not to lose coddling style team did!

 

I think what you're really missing, then, is Bob Woods' power play, no?

 

:nana:  :nana:  :nana: 

 

 

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This isn't even the second worst team in the last 5 years - it is just the most disappointing one. 

[darksabre]

And yet somehow this horrific team has more even strength goals than Dreary Dan's play not to lose coddling style team did!

 

I think what you're really missing, then, is Bob Woods' power play, no?

 

:nana:  :nana:  :nana: 

 

 

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This isn't even the second worst team in the last 5 years - it is just the most disappointing one. 

I think if you look at this season side by side with last season, you see that points production stayed pretty much the same even as we work down through the roster, but that the difference maker was the collapse of our defensive play and goaltending.

 

We assumed this was going to happen with Housley's system, and it did. But we also assumed that more goal scoring would accompany it. It didn't.

 

That's a problem. 

[Randall Flagg]

I think if you look at this season side by side with last season, you see that points production stayed pretty much the same even as we work down through the roster, but that the difference maker was the collapse of our defensive play and goaltending.

 

We assumed this was going to happen with Housley's system, and it did. But we also assumed that more goal scoring would accompany it. It didn't.

 

That's a problem. 

I'm not convinced it was the system. We allowed almost 200 more shots on goal last season than we did this one. We allowed dozens more high danger scoring chances last season than we did this season. Our "expected goals against", which tracks how many goals you should allow based on where shots are coming from, ie it weights league shooting percentage from that spot with how many shots you allow from there, it improved this year as well. 

 

Lehner and Johnson both dropped the ball. We were in plenty of close games that a barrage of craptastic goaltending quickly put us out of, and our power play didn't pull us back into. Look at that Rangers game two weeks ago. We completely dominated them had 20 shots on goal before the first was over,, but they scored 3 times in 4 shots. We outshot teams more this season by game 50 than we did last season, but the power play got a lot worse and the goaltending got a lot worse and we didn't improve enough at the only other facet of the game that could offset that, even strength scoring, even though we did improve, to account for those things. 

 

Ie, that's with Jack, ROR, Sam etc. improving their ES numbers to the best they've been as Sabres. But we spent two months with three lines of trash by losing two players (Kane, Eichel). ROR and Sam are not going to cover for line two being Girgensons- Rodrigues- Baptiste, Line 3 being Larsson with Okposo and Pouliot, and line four being Nolan, Josefson, and Griffith.

I'm not trying to champion Phil or his system or anything, but I don't think the idea that we played run and gun to our downfall is correct, and the numbers seem to support that. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[darksabre]

I'm not convinced it was the system. We allowed almost 200 more shots on goal last season than we did this one. We allowed dozens more high danger scoring chances last season than we did this season. Our "expected goals against", which tracks how many goals you should allow based on where shots are coming from, ie it weights league shooting percentage from that spot with how many shots you allow from there, it improved this year as well. 

 

Lehner and Johnson both dropped the ball. We were in plenty of close games that a barrage of craptastic goaltending quickly put us out of, and our power play didn't pull us back into. Look at that Rangers game two weeks ago. We completely dominated them had 20 shots on goal before the first was over,, but they scored 3 times in 4 shots. We outshot teams more this season by game 50 than we did last season, but the power play got a lot worse and the goaltending got a lot worse and we didn't improve enough at the only other facet of the game that could offset that, even strength scoring, even though we did improve, to account for those things. 

 

Ie, that's with Jack, ROR, Sam etc. improving their ES numbers to the best they've been as Sabres. But we spent two months with three lines of trash by losing two players (Kane, Eichel). ROR and Sam are not going to cover for line two being Girgensons- Rodrigues- Baptiste, Line 3 being Larsson with Okposo and Pouliot, and line four being Nolan, Josefson, and Griffith.

I'm not trying to champion Phil or his system or anything, but I don't think the idea that we played run and gun to our downfall is correct, and the numbers seem to support that. 

I'll take your analysis on the advanced metrics. 

 

I just know we didn't score as much as we wanted to, and we got scored on way more. 

 

I figured the last one would happen. I didn't assume the first. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by darksabre

[GASabresIUFAN]

Bad goaltending, injuries, bad lower half of the roster doomed this season. This team would have failed no matter who coached. However, Wowie screwed with the PP, didn’t adjust to his talent and Jbot was slow to react when the team stumbled out of the gate.

 

It was an entire organization failure. Moulson and Gorges should have been waived/bought out after last season. I even made buying out Gorges my signature. I got some pretty nasty flack for saying that. People said you don’t treat respected vets like that etc... what a bunch of crap.

 

If Jbot wants this team to move forward, we need to move on from Pommers, Bogo, Baloo and other dead weight regardless of cost. Buyouts, trades, waivers whatever. None of these should be on the roster next year. I’d rather take my lumps with the kids next season then watch another year like this one. I’m also trading Larsson and maybe Girgensons.

 

Jbot strip it down.

Edited April 5, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN

[Eleven]

After changing the horses in midstream last summer, I didn't want assistants, guys who were newbies at their promotion. I wanted guys who had lots of experience at their given jobs. Guys who knew the ropes already, not someone being given a chance at getting a promotion. This has been a last place team for years. They needed crisis managers, guys in the top positions who could withstand a lot of pressure, accurately assess the problems and act on it, despite opposition. You notice that the Preds came in first overall this year and the Penguins near the top...doesn't look like these teams missed these two guys at all.

 

Granted, Buffalo has become a very unattractive place for GMs, coaches (and players) because of this long-time chaotic situation. I don't have answers as to who specifically could lead this team. I'd bribe Trotz to come here in a heartbeat if he becomes available.

 

Who was available that fits your description?  Certainly not Barry Trotz.

[Rasmus_]

Bailey, Baptiste and Fasching could slip into this lineup right now for Wilson, Nolan, Larson, Josefson, Girgensons, Rodrigues and Pouliot without any drop-off at all. They are stronger and faster than most of those guys already.

 

They are in the minors to improve their detail so that when they do replace some of those guys they might actually represent an upgrade.

 

At least two of them will be Sabre regulars next year; bank on it.

 

I agree with you on all of this except Rodrigues, he showed better than the rest of these listed players when given proper line mates and ice time.  Josefson, Pouliot and Nolan are gone.  Girgensons and Larsson on the block.  With Wilson being a complimentary bench / 4th line player.  I do believe Baptiste showed enough with his skating and hustle to warrant starting the season on the third or fourth line. 

[Randall Flagg]

Bad goaltending, injuries, bad lower half of the roster doomed this season. This team would have failed no matter who coached. However, Wowie screwed with the PP, didn’t adjust to his talent and Jbot was slow to react when the team stumbled out of the gate.

 

It was an entire organization failure. Moulson and Gorges should have been waived/bought out after last season. I even made buying out Gorges my signature. I got some pretty nasty flack for saying that. People said you don’t treat respected vets like that etc... what a bunch of crap.

 

If Jbot wants this team to move forward, we need to move on from Pommers, Bogo, Baloo and other dead weight regardless of cost. Buyouts, trades, waivers whatever. None of these should be on the roster next year. I’d rather take my lumps with the kids next season then watch another year like this one. I’m also trading Larsson and maybe Girgensons.

 

Jbot strip it down.

Agree with all of this.

[SwampD]

And yet somehow this horrific team has more even strength goals than Dreary Dan's play not to lose coddling style team did!

 

I think what you're really missing, then, is Bob Woods' power play, no?

 

:nana:  :nana:  :nana: 

 

 

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This isn't even the second worst team in the last 5 years - it is just the most disappointing one. 

Do we also give up more goals 5v5 than we did last year, though? It seems like we have given up more odd man rushes and breakaways this year that I can remember in a long time.

[bunomatic]

Bad goaltending, injuries, bad lower half of the roster doomed this season. This team would have failed no matter who coached. However, Wowie screwed with the PP, didn’t adjust to his talent and Jbot was slow to react when the team stumbled out of the gate.

 

It was an entire organization failure. Moulson and Gorges should have been waived/bought out after last season. I even made buying out Gorges my signature. I got some pretty nasty flack for saying that. People said you don’t treat respected vets like that etc... what a bunch of crap.

 

If Jbot wants this team to move forward, we need to move on from Pommers, Bogo, Baloo and other dead weight regardless of cost. Buyouts, trades, waivers whatever. None of these should be on the roster next year. I’d rather take my lumps with the kids next season then watch another year like this one. I’m also trading Larsson and maybe Girgensons.

 

Jbot strip it down.

Yeah I'm with you on this. 

[Randall Flagg]

Do we also give up more goals 5v5 than we did last year, though? It seems like we have given up more odd man rushes and breakaways this year that I can remember in a long time.

Yeah, our save percentage is way worse despite giving up fewer shots, scoring chances, and shots from high danger areas (not sure how that definition is different), by dozens if not hundreds.

 

Wish I had the odd man rush numbers, not sure anyone counts those.