darksabre Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 Be careful. You will summon him. YOLO
That Aud Smell Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 Package Kane and Reinhardt It occurs to me what the issue is with #23: He's missing ... THE D.
Eleven Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 The problem with this is no contenders or playoff bubble teams are going to "thin their ranks" with players they will need for the playoffs. The best we can hope for are near ready prospects. They aren't going to give us roster players other than people they'd prefer not to have on their roster come playoff time. Didn't two contenders just pull off a "hockey trade" yesterday?
mjd1001 Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) very likely I fear, especially cause without Kane we will really be bad and jack will really pout I don't know about Jack pouting, but without Kane I think this team will be much worse than most even fear: I have said in many threads that is team is WAY too slow. Okposo, Reinhart, and O'Reilly are relied on to be top forwards...but not only are they not legit top scorers overall...they are actually pretty bad 5-on-5. They are really only useful on the powerplay. They get dominated when they can't set up on the zone..and are almost liabilities in the transition game. Look at the numbers: -Eichel and Kane are 2 of the fasted players on the team (if not the fastest). Many games, their line is the ONLY like that doesn't get dominated in Corsi. But even look at goal production. In the last 2 seasons, they have totaled 71 goals....with only 14 on the Powerplay. They rely on the powerplay for only 19-20% of their goals. -Reinhart, O'Reilly and Okposo have totaled 71 goals also (between the 3 of them). However, 31 of them have been on the Powerplay. Almost 44% of their goals are on the Powerplay. When playing 5-on-5, not only do they not control play at all, but they really aren't productive. By the way, the NHL average is about 20% of all goals are on the Powerplay. Take Kane off this team, and the ONLY player you have that is even above average 5-on-5 is Eichel...thats it. Reinhart isn't going to be a player who can take control of a game. Okposo has his best days behind him. OReilly is good on the PP and penalty killing, but below average for the majority of the game 5-on-5. Who else is left on this team? If you think this team is brutal to watch now as far as skating and the transition game goes...when Kane is gone...wow. Edited November 30, 2017 by mjd1001
bob_sauve28 Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 Maybe he's already told them he's testing the free agent market? Stop. You know everyone wants to play here
3putt Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 Didn't two contenders just pull off a "hockey trade" yesterday? None of the assets were UFA's to be. I think that is the challenge. Not insurmountable though.
nfreeman Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 I have precisely the same sense with Kane. It's difficult to express, and even difficult to prove with numbers or data, but it feels like there is something amiss. He scores goals. He's said to be a full-effort sort of player. He'll stand up for teammates if there's trouble on the ice. And yet, I have come to conclude that there is something rotten about the current core of this team. And Kane appears to be at the center of that core. He is not the only player I would like to see moved out for other players or prospects, but he's chief among them. I'm also open to the idea that Reinhart and/or ROR have to go as well. For other NHL-caliber players, I should think. I just think the whole garden really needs to be turned over in a comprehensive way because the current roster seems deeply flawed -- not just in terms of talent but also attitude, heart, and/or professionalism. I'm totally on board with the "rotten core" theory. Not quite there that Kane is in the middle of it, but he certainly could be, and more importantly it seems pretty likely that he doesn't want to stay. I think some core pieces need to be moved, and I'd be surprised if JBott and Howie don't think so as well. Trade Kane for futures, Reinhart for a defenceman and sign Johnny T Approved, except that if Tavares is willing to come to the worst team in the NHL for his prime, that means he's all about the Benjamins, so I don't want him. I was recalling earlier how Reinhart missed that team meeting or workout session and bristled in the media about how "###### happens." I wonder if Botterill is itching to break up the Rat Pack and get Evander and Sam away from Jack? Very, very plausible. It's gonna really suck when we move them and Jack still has 20% effort and a ###### attitude Uh-oh.
Drunkard Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Didn't two contenders just pull off a "hockey trade" yesterday? Yes, they did. It's wasn't one team selling a pending UFA like we're looking to do with Kane though. Apples and Oranges. There's a reason the vast majority of rentals get sold off for picks and prospects. Teams fighting for the playoffs generally want to load up rather than ditching roster players under contract for rentals. Edited November 30, 2017 by Drunkard
LGR4GM Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 Lol ROR isn't good 5v5... That's hilarious
WildCard Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 Grubauer anyone? Granted Washington would need to give up more, but eating salary for Kane sounds like a team that would fit, they're in win now mode, and I'm sure they have some other prospects we're interested in
That Aud Smell Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 Lol ROR isn't good 5v5... That's ###### hilarious As someone who thinks he's seeing ROR as behind the play a lot (or at least not driving the play), I am interested to hear a take to the effect that all is well with the gritty toothless wonder.
Eleven Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 Yes, they did. It's wasn't one team selling a pending UFA like we're looking to do with Kane though. Apples and Oranges. There's a reason the vast majority of rentals get sold off for picks and prospects. Teams fighting for the playoffs generally want to load up rather than ditching roster players under contract for rentals. It's still November for a few hours. He's not exactly a rental yet.
mjd1001 Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Lol ROR isn't good 5v5... That's ###### hilarious I'm not a hockey coach and can't analyze film as well as people who have played the games for years, but how IS he good 5 on 5? -He isn't a great scorer 5-on-5. Take out the PP numbers and 5 on 5 he is ordinary at best. -As far as back-checking and D-play, I think people are holding onto what they thought of him a few years ago. Plus-minus may not be a great stat, but his is awful...and it goes beyond that. Look at the replays of some of the goals he was on the ice for....quite a few of them he was responsible for a give-away OR he was lazy back-checking. I can remember a coupe goals this year (and I posted about them when they happened) where he had Ovechkin-like moments...he glided back into the zone...was only about 2 steps behind the eventual scorer. -His transition game is below average, if not awful. For every time he manages to carry the puck through the neutral zone and into the opponents zone...or make a great pass that allows someone else to transition into the Offensive zone....there are multiple times where it happens against the Sabres when he is on the ice. I just really don't see what others see in O'Reilly. What I see is a slightly above average scorer (that relies on the PP to get him to that level)...who is great at faceoffs...but over-rated as a Defensive forward and average to slightly below average in transition. Can someone tell me specifically what I am seeing wrong when I watch him play? Edited November 30, 2017 by mjd1001
Drunkard Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 It's still November for a few hours. He's not exactly a rental yet. You're splitting hairs. He's a UFA at the end of this season. Teams gearing up to win aren't going to want to part with rostered players under contract/control. Unless you want to help them out by taking guys they don't want on their roster come playoff time. We could still land near ready prospects though. Good prospects that haven't been given a chance to move up because they play on teams with actual depth. A guy like that could probably play in our top 6/top 4 immediately if they came here because we have so many holes on the roster.
MattPie Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 I'm not a hockey coach and can't analyze film as well as people who have played the games for years, but how IS he good 5 on 5? -He isn't a great scorer 5-on-5. Take out the PP numbers and 5 on 5 he is ordinary at best. -As far as back-checking and D-play, I think people are holding onto what they thought of him a few years ago. Plus-minus may not be a great stat, but his is awful...and it goes beyond that. Look at the replays of some of the goals he was on the ice for....quite a few of them he was responsible for a give-away OR he was lazy back-checking. I can remember a coupe goals this year (and I posted about them when they happened) where he had Ovechkin-like moments...he glided back into the zone...was only about 2 steps behind the eventual scorer. -His transition game is below average, if not awful. For every time he manages to carry the puck through the neutral zone and into the opponents zone...or make a great pass that allows someone else to transition into the Offensive zone....there are multiple times where it happens against the Sabres when he is on the ice. I just really don't see what others see in O'Reilly. What I see is a slightly above average scorer (that relies on the PP to get him to that level)...who is great at faceoffs...but over-rated as a Defensive forward and average to slightly below average in transition. Can someone tell me specifically what I am seeing wrong when I watch him play? Seems like when he first got there, if ROR, the puck, and an opponent were in proximity together, you could count on ROR skating away with the puck. Almost without fail. I don't know what happened to that ROR, and that's why people are high on him; that guy should be in there somewhere.
mjd1001 Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 Seems like when he first got there, if ROR, the puck, and an opponent were in proximity together, you could count on ROR skating away with the puck. Almost without fail. I don't know what happened to that ROR, and that's why people are high on him; that guy should be in there somewhere. O'Reilly does lead the Sabres this year in "Takeaways" with 18...just ahead of Pouliet with 16, Eichel with 15 and Larsson with 11. Figure in ice time, and Larsson and Pouliet get more takeaways per total ice time. For reference, league leaders in takeaways by forwards currently is 32. With 18, O'Reilly is tied for 46th in the league among forwards.
Stoner Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 PA don’t you mean Brat Pack? That works too. The Rat Pack is more my generation though.
Thorner Posted November 30, 2017 Report Posted November 30, 2017 I have precisely the same sense with Kane. It's difficult to express, and even difficult to prove with numbers or data, but it feels like there is something amiss. He scores goals. He's said to be a full-effort sort of player. He'll stand up for teammates if there's trouble on the ice. And yet, I have come to conclude that there is something rotten about the current core of this team. And Kane appears to be at the center of that core. He is not the only player I would like to see moved out for other players or prospects, but he's chief among them. I'm also open to the idea that Reinhart and/or ROR have to go as well. For other NHL-caliber players, I should think. I just think the whole garden really needs to be turned over in a comprehensive way because the current roster seems deeply flawed -- not just in terms of talent but also attitude, heart, and/or professionalism. I'm coming around to this line of thinking. I said the same somewhere else. I think it's the case. Sam and Kane would be the guys I move out. And Bogosian, right? Please? It's still November for a few hours. He's not exactly a rental yet. I think Botterill is taking a big risk in waiting to deal Kane. Perhaps his value is maximized by an earlier trade, but especially because of injury concerns. A team that trades for Kane is doing so for immediate impact. If Kane gets hurt come deadline time, he's not getting traded, or the return goes WAY down. I agree with those that have said the Kane trade is a huge moment for Botterill. Makes me nervous knowing we are one injury away, from a guy who doesn't exactly have the best injury history, from that being ruined.
French Collection Posted December 1, 2017 Report Posted December 1, 2017 I think Botterill is taking a big risk in waiting to deal Kane. Perhaps his value is maximized by an earlier trade, but especially because of injury concerns. A team that trades for Kane is doing so for immediate impact. If Kane gets hurt come deadline time, he's not getting traded, or the return goes WAY down. I agree with those that have said the Kane trade is a huge moment for Botterill. Makes me nervous knowing we are one injury away, from a guy who doesn't exactly have the best injury history, from that being ruined. Agree with this. His injury history is not good and he's off to his best start. I'm terrified he has a season ending injury before he is dealt.
CallawaySabres Posted December 1, 2017 Report Posted December 1, 2017 This feels worse than the tank because we still have next year to suffer through with nothing to look forward to either
Thorner Posted December 1, 2017 Report Posted December 1, 2017 This feels worse than the tank because we still have next year to suffer through with nothing to look forward to either I sure hope Botterill is planning for improvement next season. Hopefully we see progress as the year goes on..still holding out hope for that.
Eleven Posted December 1, 2017 Report Posted December 1, 2017 (edited) I think Botterill is taking a big risk in waiting to deal Kane. If the plan is to deal him, I agree 100%. This feels worse than the tank because we still have next year to suffer through with nothing to look forward to either I'm out next year. I'm not doing season share again. F this. I'll get to two or three games on friends' tix (instead of them riding on mine); I'll get to another couple for about $25 apiece, and if, IF, there are playoff tickets, the money I saved will more than pay for them. Edited December 1, 2017 by Eleven
TheAud Posted December 1, 2017 Report Posted December 1, 2017 Kane should fetch more than Vatenen alone, given this market Henrique was signed for this year and next. Kane is pure rental. I think Vantenen alone would have been more than fair return for Kane.
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