What Should The Sabres Goals Be For The Rest of The Season?

[Stoner]

I didn't learn until yesterday when the News ran a piece on the Housley marriage that Phil, until 2013, was a high school coach in Minny. Then an assistant whose stock rose with the Nashvllle run to the final. I'm not trying to be too harsh, but the guy seems to be in way over his head. That story also talked about the compromise he and his wife made regarding their respective careers. He'd have his, and then she'd have hers, basically. Now she's traveling back and forth and has had to put her political ambitions on hold. It's pretty hard to imagine he gets fired after one year, unless things actually somehow get worse and stay worse for the duration, but would he ever step down after realizing he's not an NHL coach, citing family considerations?

Edited November 24, 2017 by PASabreFan

[Sabel79]

PA, your new avatar is terrifying.  

[eman]

In one sense, I agree with you. We’re all evaluated every day.

 

I don’t belief, though, that we’ll have a product that can be evaluated against the standards of winning and making the playoffs until 2019/2020. I belief we’re suffering the effects of “new coach every two years”, in addition to other things.

 

I recognize we asked the following with Bylsma, Nolan, et al. What can you conclude about the GM/HC with this roster? Sure, you can look to compete end effort, whatever that means. Opponents show effort and compete, too. I am not able to conclude it’s missing except in the most obviously situations where a player quits on a situation. I spit fire, snort, and am willing to hurt and offend to win. I’d not win many corner battles in the NHL.

 

Some coaches make the roster better just by arriving. Babcock made the Leafs better day one. They were night and day improved on my television. Babcocks don’t become available that often. Firing lesser lights every two years doesn’t do it for me. You never know where the problem is when you change out organizations, systems and philosophies.

 

This leads me to ... the single biggest miss in the last five years wasn’t Sam, Eichel, Moulson, Lehner ... it was HC Babcock.

 

Bingo Neo! Because we actually do have some talent here that should be better then the abysmal record we have. And I'm sorry if anyone gets offended at this, but there are several nights so far this season, that this club just went out for a skate. That's on the coach. 

 

I got lambasted on this site for suggesting Babcock was way better then Bylsma when Babs went to Toronto. Everyone cited that Babs only won one Cup in Detroit with a stacked lineup as had Bylsma so there really was no difference. I got lambasted suggesting Gallant would have been a better choice as well  and hell, I even wanted Tortorella which really got this crowd frenzied. 

 

Not to say, I told you so, but they are all doing very well and I do believe still, any one of those afrorementioned would have us playing way better then what we are seeing. There is talent here, perhaps not an over abundance of it but we should not be where we are and look how we look.

 

I believe Edmonton will  deal us an embarrassing loss tonight but I am glad Neo, that you see the same thing. coaching makes a huge difference. The Nolan Sabres (when he won coach of the year) were not a greatly talented group, but they were a team and played like a team. They played for each other and their coach and we had an emerging Hasek to boot. But the Nolan team was exciting in that they played hard every freaking night. The Leafs are similar in that regard under Babs.

I didn't learn until yesterday when the News ran a piece on the Housley marriage that Phil, until 2013, was a high school coach in Minny. Then an assistant whose stock rose with the Nashvllle run to the final. I'm not trying to be too harsh, but the guy seems to be in way over his head. That story also talked about the compromise he and his wife made regarding their respective careers. He'd have his, and then she'd have hers, basically. Now she's traveling back and forth and has had to put her political ambitions on hold. It's pretty hard to imagine he gets fired after one year, unless things actually somehow get worse and stay worse for the duration, but would he ever step down after realizing he's not an NHL coach, citing family considerations?

 

I now fear that Phil may be Ron Rolston 2.0! (and I did have high hopes for him)

[Weave]

I got lambasted on this site for suggesting Babcock was way better then Bylsma when Babs went to Toronto. Everyone cited that Babs only won one Cup in Detroit with a stacked lineup as had Bylsma so there really was no difference. I got lambasted suggesting Gallant would have been a better choice as well  and hell, I even wanted Tortorella which really got this crowd frenzied.

 

Your first assertion seems unlikey, as most everyone on this board wanted Babcock, and most everyone on this board were well aware of the reasons for Bylsma's firing in Pittsburgh and were trying for optimism.  We knew Bylsma was a consolation prize.

 

Your second assertion may well be accurate though.  I think your memory is blending the two.

[Iron Crotch]

I didn't learn until yesterday when the News ran a piece on the Housley marriage that Phil, until 2013, was a high school coach in Minny. Then an assistant whose stock rose with the Nashvllle run to the final. I'm not trying to be too harsh, but the guy seems to be in way over his head. That story also talked about the compromise he and his wife made regarding their respective careers. He'd have his, and then she'd have hers, basically. Now she's traveling back and forth and has had to put her political ambitions on hold. It's pretty hard to imagine he gets fired after one year, unless things actually somehow get worse and stay worse for the duration, but would he ever step down after realizing he's not an NHL coach, citing family considerations?

 

The book is still out on whether Housley is a competent coach, but I don't think there is a coach in the game who could win with this roster. I really believe we're so devoid of talent that it isn't possible to evaluate whether Housley's system can/will work.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Agreed. We might get a better feel if we ever get totally healthy on D, but until we are at least 3 lines deep, we’ll never know.

[Thorner]

If he is moved at the trade deadline, it is because a team is trying to add scoring punch for a Cup run. Those teams almost never send useful roster players back in return. And, GMs have not been giving up 1st round picks for rentals the past few seasons. I think a deadline deal at best gets us a 2nd plus prospect(s). IMHO, we have to sign him to get anything useful back in trade.

Yup. The Kane situation is a bit of a head scratcher to me. I've always felt that any extra trade value he drums up this season by playing well is offset by the corresponding closer proximity to rental/UFA status. No matter how well he plays, he's going to be seen as a rental now and I don't believe we'll get much in a trade.

 

They should have dealt him in the offseason if signing him was never an option.

 

I am in complete deferred gratification mode.

Sign Kane and worry the cap in 2019. That maximizes his value. Then, keep or trade later. Worry the cap in 2019. If he declines to sign through March, send him somewhere at the deadline.

Put Reinhart at wing and give him every opportunity to show what he brings. Cold evaluation time.

Leave the kids in Rochester and cheer the Amerks. I’d love to see some playoff experience. Baptiste, Bailey, Ghule, Nylander and Fasching stay put this year. Pu and Asplund get two years in the AHL.

Suffer the current product. Use the word “playoffs” when we see DeLuca .500 at a quarter pole.

Recognize 2019/2020 is evaluation time for Housley and JBot.

TPegs has two franchises that tried bold and splashy rebuilds that missed on some key talent and never formed an identity.

I want two organizations. Individual teams come together therein.

Be entertaining in the meantime. Show up and play, win or lose.

I agree with this. I think with the new "Botterill Timeline", if we are talking playoff bubble next season we are ahead of schedule, and that the 2019/2020 season is the necessary "expiration date" of our playoff drought.

 

Botterill must be able to implement enough that we are good in his third season as GM, right?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Yup. The Kane situation is a bit of a head scratcher to me. I've always felt that any extra trade value he drums up this season by playing well is offset by the corresponding closer proximity to rental/UFA status. No matter how well he plays, he's going to be seen as a rental now and I don't believe we'll get much in a trade.

They should have dealt him in the offseason if signing him was never an option.

 

I agree with this. I think with the new "Botterill Timeline", if we are talking playoff bubble next season we are ahead of schedule, and that the 2019/2020 season is the necessary "expiration date" of our playoff drought.

Botterill must be able to implement enough that we are good in his third season as GM, right?

You would think (hope). By 2019/20, Mittelstadt, Asplund, Guhle, Ullmark and Nylander should be in our lineup full time. That is a serious infusion of talent to a forward group that is already two lines deep plus a desperately smart puck moving D. Edited November 24, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Neo]

To eman ... I’m laughing and grateful. Thank you for the “bingo”, but as We’ve said, the desire for Babcock was hardly mine, alone! I agree with We’ve’s “consolation prize” analogy, rooted in optimism. GoDD and his boundless energy sold me! Not that GoDD missed anything when evaluating the alternatives. I admire conviction. He had it. I voted with the “Yeas” on Disco Dan.

[Thorner]

Agreed. We might get a better feel if we ever get totally healthy on D, but until we are at least 3 lines deep, we’ll never know.

I'm counting today as totally healthy on D. At least until Bogosian is replaced by JBot.

[Hank]

Bingo Neo! Because we actually do have some talent here that should be better then the abysmal record we have. And I'm sorry if anyone gets offended at this, but there are several nights so far this season, that this club just went out for a skate. That's on the coach. 

 

I got lambasted on this site for suggesting Babcock was way better then Bylsma when Babs went to Toronto. Everyone cited that Babs only won one Cup in Detroit with a stacked lineup as had Bylsma so there really was no difference. I got lambasted suggesting Gallant would have been a better choice as well  and hell, I even wanted Tortorella which really got this crowd frenzied. 

 

Not to say, I told you so, but they are all doing very well and I do believe still, any one of those afrorementioned would have us playing way better then what we are seeing. There is talent here, perhaps not an over abundance of it but we should not be where we are and look how we look.

 

I believe Edmonton will  deal us an embarrassing loss tonight but I am glad Neo, that you see the same thing. coaching makes a huge difference. The Nolan Sabres (when he won coach of the year) were not a greatly talented group, but they were a team and played like a team. They played for each other and their coach and we had an emerging Hasek to boot. But the Nolan team was exciting in that they played hard every freaking night. The Leafs are similar in that regard under Babs.

 

I now fear that Phil may be Ron Rolston 2.0! (and I did have high hopes for him)

The Nolan years aren't looked upon too fondly on these boards. That style of play can't be understood or appreciated by most of the self loathing lesser thans...

[qwksndmonster]

The Nolan years aren't looked upon too fondly on these boards. That style of play can't be understood or appreciated by most of the self loathing lesser thans...

This is why it's worth it not to have Hank on ignore (even though it is very tempting). Dude is hilarious.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Anyone have a link to the Jbot interview LTS referenced in the Montreal game thread?

 

Nevermind. Found it. https://www.nhl.com/sabres/video/jason-botterill-112417/t-277437090/c-54955003

Edited November 26, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Crusader1969]

Buffalo's play-off odds are now at 0

 

Bad news:

 

https://twitter.com/coreypronman/status/935175754064842752

 

Good News: 

 

Odd of Dahlin 12.5%

Top 3 pick 36.2%

[MattPie]

This late into the season? We just past the quarter pole. That means 3/4 of the season has yet to be played. This team lies face first flat in the mud. They need to pick themselves up and finish the race. The question is do they walk around the track and give up on the season and accept they they are a losing bunch of steamy smelly .... or do they act like professionals and do everything possible to get back in the race.

 

Admittedly this roster lacks enough NHL talent to be a playoff contender, but there is enough talent here to win at least 25 games the rest of the way and maybe play 500 hockey. 64-69 pts should get us a top 5 pick in a decent draft to add talent. However playing 500 hockey the rest of the way should restore some hope for the future, especially if guys like Guhle, Nylander and Ullmark help lead Roch deep into the AHL playoffs.

 

I'm not sure this team has anything else. At the 1/4 pole, this team probably isn't going to magically get better unless it truly is them getting used to a new system and losing some Badylsma-habits. I just don't see it. There's no race to get back into, they'd have to suddenly become a *very* good team to even sniff the bubble.

[Radar]

Troubling thing is that the talent should be no worst than last season. In fact I would argue on paper it's better. The play has gone down hill. As much as Bylsma was disliked and as much as I liked the idea of hiring Phil I must admit new system or not I'm beginning to look more at the coaching. That's where the big change was.

[WildCard]

Troubling thing is that the talent should be no worst than last season. In fact I would argue on paper it's better. The play has gone down hill. As much as Bylsma was disliked and as much as I liked the idea of hiring Phil I must admit new system or not I'm beginning to look more at the coaching. That's where the big change was.

I still think it's a losing culture. And Jack's at the head of it

[Crusader1969]

I still think it's a losing culture. And Jack's at the head of it

 

 

Didn't Jack win everywhere until he got to Buffalo? I honestly think its talent and depth.  Though, I wouldn't mind seeing a guy who was a leader on a cup winning team brought in for next season.  its nice to hear Jordon Nolan step up but I think a guy like Dustin Brown would have a bigger impact.. I dont mean necessarily Dustin Brown but a guy "like" Dustin Brown without the price tag.

[WildCard]

Didn't Jack win everywhere until he got to Buffalo? I honestly think its talent and depth.  Though, I wouldn't mind seeing a guy who was a leader on a cup winning team brought in for next season.  its nice to hear Jordon Nolan step up but I think a guy like Dustin Brown would have a bigger impact.. I dont mean necessarily Dustin Brown but a guy "like" Dustin Brown without the price tag.

He lost in the finals for NCAA, and the WJC IIRC. His attitude and work ethic has been absolutely pathetic ever since he's been here. 

[Scottysabres]

Bots is doing it right imo.

Developing talent in the system.

A few of these contracts are g9ne next season, and I would argue, a couple of RFA's are not going to see next season as well. I surmise up to as many as 5 roster spots possibly being available.

 

The goal for the remainder of the season is most likely to gauge where the young are at and how they plan to shape the team going forward. There are some intriguing personnel both in the system as well as the roster.

For example, Girgensons and Larsson. What is their future with the organization?

CJ Smith surely has caught at least the attention of the organization given his play in Rochester.

What of Bailey, Baptiste and Fasching? They are approaching a time frame where decisions will have to be made.

 

Bots has a plate full with this organization as of now imo.

[Radar]

I still think it's a losing culture. And Jack's at the head of it

You may be right although I personally don't buy losing culture and if I did isn't coaching important to culture? Do you think Babcock would have the same results we're seeing? I'm not sure. Just think the honeymoon for Phil is shorter than for the GM, at least in my mind, and I'm beginning to question him as head coach. That's subject to change as I'm aware this is new for him. I like him but liking him as a person and as a coach are two different things.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Radar

[GASabresIUFAN]

Phil was brought in partly to coach up the defense, however you have to have decent D to coach.

 

Entering the season the D group was supposed to be Risto, Marco, McCabe, Baloo, Antipin and Bogo with Falk and Gorges competing with Baloo and Antipin for slots 5 and 6.

 

So far those 6 have yet to play a game together.  Bogo has yet to play (missing 24 games).  Risto missed 9.  Baloo and Antipin have only played 17 and 18 games respectively do to injury or benchings.  In addition we have used an additional 5 D who all should be in the AHL (or out of hockey in Gorges case). Tennyson played 14 awful games, Gorges 11, Falk 11, Fedun 7 and Redmond 3.  Not exactly a who's who of capable NHL D.  

 

I think we'll get a much better idea of Phil the coach as the season goes along and he finally gets his D group together. I'm not saying this is going to be a miracle cure for what ails the team, but it should help. 

[Radar]

Phil was brought in partly to coach up the defense, however you have to have decent D to coach.

 

Entering the season the D group was supposed to be Risto, Marco, McCabe, Baloo, Antipin and Bogo with Falk and Gorges competing with Baloo and Antipin for slots 5 and 6.

 

So far those 6 have yet to play a game together.  Bogo has yet to play (missing 24 games).  Risto missed 9.  Baloo and Antipin have only played 17 and 18 games respectively do to injury or benchings.  In addition we have used an additional 5 D who all should be in the AHL (or out of hockey in Gorges case). Tennyson played 14 awful games, Gorges 11, Falk 11, Fedun 7 and Redmond 3.  Not exactly a who's who of capable NHL D.  

 

I think we'll get a much better idea of Phil the coach as the season goes along and he finally gets his D group together. I'm not saying this is going to be a miracle cure for what ails the team, but it should help.

 

I am giving him this season and I hope things turn around but I think he's subject to the same scrutiny any other coach has been. Players are not performing up to their past performances. I'm talking about our core guys and not our defense in particular.

[WildCard]

You may be right although I personally don't buy losing culture and if I did isn't coaching important to culture? Do you think Babcock would have the same results we're seeing? I'm not sure. Just think the honeymoon for Phil is shorter than for the GM, at least in my mind, and I'm beginning to question him as head coach. That's subject to change as I'm aware this is new for him. I like him but liking him as a person and as a coach are two different things.

I don't think Babcock has these results. Partly because Babcock is a much better coach, and partly because people believe in Babcock. 

[Radar]

I don't think Babcock has these results. Partly because Babcock is a much better coach, and partly because people believe in Babcock.

 

I think you and I are saying pretty much the same thing then.