Losing Culture

[mjd1001]

Sounds like the JBot model.

Having the young 'core' brought up together after playing in the AHL is pretty much what the Sabres did back in the mid 2000's...leading up to the presidents trophy and conference finals team.

[Neo]

The one thing that I have heard -- in re winning culture -- is that you have a team that, from top to bottom, takes care of the dozens of "little things" (and not so little things) that ensure each player and the team is ready to do its absolute best.

 

I think a lot of that sort of stuff is behavioral -- routines, habits, etc. The one concrete example I once heard was how Drury got Campbell to ease off on the greasy burgers on game day and go with a simple chicken/pasta dish. I know that probably sounds inane now, but it was a specific example.

 

But there's also the extra work that good players on good teams are apparently putting in. The assistant quality coach (or whomever) loaded this iPad with footage of next week's opponents (including goalies). Have a look, and see what you can learn about how to deal with them.

 

And then there's the on-ice stuff. Is your self-imposed "limit" -- what you can honestly call your 100% -- something that is, in fact, limited by your not really wanting to push past the point of comfort? I get really uncomfortable chirping about this because I know for a feckin' FACT that, in terms of physical exertion, I am in that camp. I watch my one kid (who's inexplicably a really good athlete) push and push and push herself to higher levels of achievement and fitness -- I watched her lay her body OUT this past fall in the high school playoffs (and winced) -- and I knew, I know that, when I was her age, I would essentially reach a point where I was all "yep. nope. okay - you get to win this battle right here."

 

And more on-ice stuff: Are you truly grabbing an oar and pulling in the direction the coach is calling for? Or are you mixing in a fair dose of your own thing, your own agenda?

 

My thoughts on the two on-ice aspects: I think Reinhart is probably an issue re the first category, and I would imagine that Kane (and perhaps Eichel) is an issue re the second category.

 

And I think ROR is an issue re neither such category, but I also think he is probably two steps too slow right now.

I was going to snip for brevity and then applaud. I think I’ll just applaud.

 

At any industry’s highest level. It’s the smallest if things that bring you margin of victory more often over 100 iterations.

[That Aud Smell]

Having the young 'core' brought up together after playing in the AHL is pretty much what the Sabres did back in the mid 2000's...leading up to the presidents trophy and conference finals team.

Except both captains skipped that process entirely.

[LTS]

Well. That’s ... something, anyway.

 

Still a terrible look.

 

It's only a terrible look if you refuse to acknowledge:

• He was on the ice for over 2 minutes already and was not just standing around.
• The player coming off the bench is his defensive cover.
• He's gliding because he did skate hard enough to get back to cover the 3rd guy high.
• He's resting himself to use energy to get the puck out of the zone without having to ice it.

All of these things are done to help prevent a bad situation.  He certainly can't help that they scored.  He can't help that Antipin was caught too low in the offensive zone and forced a slight 2 on 1 that caused Beaulieu to have to play off Williams farther than he should have. Look at this way.  If that puck is a save with a rebound or into the corner then Eichel would have to defend against fresh legs of Carolina.  If the puck does not go in the net and stays live, Eichel is in perfect defensive position to play the 3rd guy entering the zone.

[SwampD]

It's only a terrible look if you refuse to acknowledge:

• He was on the ice for over 2 minutes already and was not just standing around.
• The player coming off the bench is his defensive cover.
• He's gliding because he did skate hard enough to get back to cover the 3rd guy high.
• He's resting himself to use energy to get the puck out of the zone without having to ice it.

All of these things are done to help prevent a bad situation.  He certainly can't help that they scored.  He can't help that Antipin was caught too low in the offensive zone and forced a slight 2 on 1 that caused Beaulieu to have to play off Williams farther than he should have. Look at this way.  If that puck is a save with a rebound or into the corner then Eichel would have to defend against fresh legs of Carolina.  If the puck does not go in the net and stays live, Eichel is in perfect defensive position to play the 3rd guy entering the zone.

I've turned and am with you on this. I think you have it correct.

[That Aud Smell]

It's only a terrible look if you refuse to acknowledge:

• He was on the ice for over 2 minutes already and was not just standing around.
• The player coming off the bench is his defensive cover.
• He's gliding because he did skate hard enough to get back to cover the 3rd guy high.
• He's resting himself to use energy to get the puck out of the zone without having to ice it.

All of these things are done to help prevent a bad situation.  He certainly can't help that they scored.  He can't help that Antipin was caught too low in the offensive zone and forced a slight 2 on 1 that caused Beaulieu to have to play off Williams farther than he should have. Look at this way.  If that puck is a save with a rebound or into the corner then Eichel would have to defend against fresh legs of Carolina.  If the puck does not go in the net and stays live, Eichel is in perfect defensive position to play the 3rd guy entering the zone.

 

He was on the ice for 2 minutes during a power play. I suspect he did a fair amount of standing around during that time.

 

I'll defer on whether and to what extent Eichel had his defensive cover responsibility in mind when he started gliding through the neutral zone. I have my doubts.

 

I did see Eichel give a couple of strides when the play went the other way. Good job there, I guess.

 

I saw him resting while the player with the puck dipsy-doodled for a crucial 2 extra seconds and roofed the puck.

 

Your analysis above seems cogent, and quite plausible. I'm just not convinced that's what actually happened, insofar as Eichel's thought process is concerned. Maybe it did.

[WildCard]

It's only a terrible look if you refuse to acknowledge:

• He was on the ice for over 2 minutes already and was not just standing around.
• The player coming off the bench is his defensive cover.
• He's gliding because he did skate hard enough to get back to cover the 3rd guy high.
• He's resting himself to use energy to get the puck out of the zone without having to ice it.

All of these things are done to help prevent a bad situation.  He certainly can't help that they scored.  He can't help that Antipin was caught too low in the offensive zone and forced a slight 2 on 1 that caused Beaulieu to have to play off Williams farther than he should have. Look at this way.  If that puck is a save with a rebound or into the corner then Eichel would have to defend against fresh legs of Carolina.  If the puck does not go in the net and stays live, Eichel is in perfect defensive position to play the 3rd guy entering the zone.

I've turned and am with you on this. I think you have it correct.

I might buy it if this wasn't the millionth time we've talked about this same issue with him

[Eleven]

It's only a terrible look if you refuse to acknowledge:

• He was on the ice for over 2 minutes already and was not just standing around.
• The player coming off the bench is his defensive cover.
• He's gliding because he did skate hard enough to get back to cover the 3rd guy high.
• He's resting himself to use energy to get the puck out of the zone without having to ice it.

All of these things are done to help prevent a bad situation.  He certainly can't help that they scored.  He can't help that Antipin was caught too low in the offensive zone and forced a slight 2 on 1 that caused Beaulieu to have to play off Williams farther than he should have. Look at this way.  If that puck is a save with a rebound or into the corner then Eichel would have to defend against fresh legs of Carolina.  If the puck does not go in the net and stays live, Eichel is in perfect defensive position to play the 3rd guy entering the zone.

 

This is not an unreasonable view of that one play.  

[LTS]

He was on the ice for 2 minutes during a power play. I suspect he did a fair amount of standing around during that time.

 

I'll defer on whether and to what extent Eichel had his defensive cover responsibility in mind when he started gliding through the neutral zone. I have my doubts.

 

I did see Eichel give a couple of strides when the play went the other way. Good job there, I guess.

 

I saw him resting while the player with the puck dipsy-doodled for a crucial 2 extra seconds and roofed the puck.

 

Your analysis above seems cogent, and quite plausible. I'm just not convinced that's what actually happened, insofar as Eichel's thought process is concerned. Maybe it did.

 

I think we're at a good point.  Anything more and someone is going to have to get that horse.gif out. :)

 

I might buy it if this wasn't the millionth time we've talked about this same issue with him

 

It's the analysis of a single situation.  It's fair to say Eichel is lazy.  It's just not necessarily fair to say he was lazy on that play.  It's like saying Bartolo Colon is not an overall home run hitter, but he did hit a home run.

 

This is not an unreasonable view of that one play.  

 

And it was not meant to be more than that.  :)

[WildCard]

It's the analysis of a single situation.  It's fair to say Eichel is lazy.  It's just not necessarily fair to say he was lazy on that play.  It's like saying Bartolo Colon is not an overall home run hitter, but he did hit a home run.

I mean we're analyzing that situation trying to figure out why he was lazy in that play, and I think it's just him and I'm basing that off of all the other times I've seen it. It's more like saying Bartolo Colon is not an overall home run hitter, so when he doesn't hit one I'm not surprised 

[That Aud Smell]

I mean we're analyzing that situation trying to figure out why he was lazy in that play, and I think it's just him and I'm basing that off of all the other times I've seen it. It's more like saying Bartolo Colon is not an overall home run hitter, so when he doesn't hit one I'm not surprised 

 

Wait - so was Eichel drifting back onto that play tantamount to Colon hitting a home run?

[WildCard]

Wait - so was Eichel drifting back onto that play tantamount to Colon hitting a home run?

Opposite. Eichel routinely drifts back...well everywhere really. Colon routinely does not hit home runs. So when Eichel drifts, and Colon does not hit a home run, I'm not going to analyze the specific factors that go into it, because they're different in every situation. The history shows that Colon is simply a bad hitter, no matter the pitcher he's facing, what his own pitch count is, etc., and that Eichel is simply bad defensively/lazy, no matter the length of his shift or his opponent.

Edited November 21, 2017 by WildCard

[That Aud Smell]

Opposite. Eichel routinely drifts back...well everywhere really. Colon routinely does not hit home runs. So when Eichel drifts, and Colon does not hit a home run, I'm not going to analyze the specific factors that go into it, because they're different in every situation. The history shows that Colon is simply a bad hitter, no matter the pitcher he's facing, what his own pitch count is, etc., and that Eichel is simply bad defensively/lazy, no matter the length of his shift or his opponent.

 

Ah, sorry. My phrasing confused the matter. I was reading that what Eichel did might have looked like drifting back into the play, but it was actually getting back into the play. 

[SwampD]

Just shoot me.

[Sabel79]

Just shoot me.

Nope. You have to go through this with the rest of us.

[Thorner]

I read the thread title as "Logan Couture" every time.

Haha same.

 

Well. That’s ... something, anyway.

Still a terrible look.

Ya. If you are staying out so long that it prohibits you from getting back on D, don't stay out so long. I don't care if it's on the PP. "I had a long shift" is a terrible excuse.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Thorny

[LTS]

Haha same.

 

 

Ya. If you are staying out so long that it prohibits you from getting back on D, don't stay out so long. I don't care if it's on the PP. "I had a long shift" is a terrible excuse.

 

It boils down to this.  Either you understand what happened on that goal and what led up to it or you don't.  I think you can go looking for anything and potentially tie it in to fit some narrative that Jack is lazy.  In this case you now what to call him out for a long shift when most of the PP unit was on the ice for 2 minutes and it was probably a coaching decision as to how long they were out there.

 

You can ignore everything that has been laid out and just call him lazy.  There is no conversation to be had at that point.  If you want to believe he was lazy on that play despite any discussion that states the opposite it's your choice.

 

I used to coach a kid who skated really hard all the time.  ALL THE TIME.  This was great at the younger levels because most kids didn't understand positioning.  As kids began to pass more this kid looked like a chump on the ice because he'd basically be the man in the middle and never be near the play.  Sure he was hauling butt around the ice but he was never in the right position.

 

There are times when skating at 100% top speed is not required and in fact a really stupid idea.  In this case I'm seeing people now saying he was gliding back, yes he was.  It was not an incorrect thing to do at that point.  If he skated hard he'd be out of position.  He's where he needs to be and he's waiting for a opponent to come into his coverage zone.

 

Now get out the damn horse.gif.

[Stoner]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. It read as borderline jibberish to me. But thanks for showing up with a predictable defense of Harrington.

 

I know who Tennyson is — am unfamiliar with that phrase from him.

We need a cat licking itself emoji. (I made up the Tennyson bit.)

[French Collection]

Just want to take a break from Jack's back pressure discussion.

 

This thread was started because of Foligno and Ennis comments.

 

Were they part of the problem? They hadn't won anything except for some World Junior teams.

 

Is Scandella a leader of our turning point, coming from a "winning" culture? He not a #1 minute muncher but he's a good 2-3 D-man who may have some leadership skills.

 

JBot will have to create a culture here, it will take time, you can't drop a Messier into that room and say "fixed". Even Messier sucked in Vancouver.

[woods-racer]

We need a cat licking itself emoji. (I made up the Tennyson bit.)

 

That's not nice at all. Messing with our fragile minds like that. Would your mother be proud of you right now?

 

Just want to take a break from Jack's back pressure discussion.

 

This thread was started because of Foligno and Ennis comments.

 

Were they part of the problem? They hadn't won anything except for some World Junior teams.

 

Is Scandella a leader of our turning point, coming from a "winning" culture? He not a #1 minute muncher but he's a good 2-3 D-man who may have some leadership skills.

 

JBot will have to create a culture here, it will take time, you can't drop a Messier into that room and say "fixed". Even Messier sucked in Vancouver.

 

I keep thinking a Messier will drop from the sky and take hold of this team. It is my hope. But the reality is it takes a long time. It will happen and we won't know it's happening if/when this team starts to win. It will takes us a long time to even realize who our Messier is.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Woods-Racer

[Stoner]

I keep thinking a Messier will drop from the sky and take hold of this team. It is my hope. But the reality is it takes a long time. It will happen and we won't know it's happening if/when this team starts to win. It will takes us a long time to even realize who our Messier is.

Justin Falk.

[inkman]

minute muncher

I can't believe you found out my wife's nickname for me.

[LTS]

I can't believe you found out my wife's nickname for me.

 

Sure it's not her nickname for you?  :)

[WildCard]

I can't believe you found out my wife's nickname for me.

Well played

 

Sure it's not her nickname for you?  :)

That's seconds shover 

[LTS]

Well played

 

That's seconds shover 

 

:)

 

I was thinking more adjectively.