Revisiting the TANK: Was it worth it?

[Jacque Richard]

Not worth it. Playing like a Nolan tank team right now

[jsb]

To me the main problem with the tank wasn't the tank itself but the dearth of talent the club has drafted since 2010. Jake McCabe is the only 2nd rounder or lower that has played 50 games for the Sabres and he's more of a JAG than a difference maker. Jack E. for all his faults is the only guy we could legitimately say we hit it big with.

 

2010 Pysyk is a JAG and no-one else in that class and he's no longer here

2011 Armia is a JAG and no-one else in that class and he's no longer here

2012 Girgensons and McCabe..... JAGs but at least they're in the NHL

2013 Risto........ Bailey and Baptiste........ Risto hopefully becomes someone but the jury is still out on the BA boys

2014 Reinhart and no-one else

2015 Jack and we hope Guhle turns into someone

2016 Nylander, Asplund, Pu and Fitzgerald but no-one at this point is a sure thing

2017 Mittelstadt looks like a sure thing but who knows on the rest

 

Just a terrible waste of very good to decent draft slots the past few years. That's how we got here.

[Skibum]

I see that you refer to the tank in the past tense...

 

Anyway, Darcy missed the golden tank opportunity when he matched Edmonton's offer sheet for Thomas Vanek. Had he just thrown in the towel right there, they would have had two first round picks every year for four straight years! And Edmonton stunk all of those years, so their picks would have been great! You just can't get that kind of value, ever. The actual tank that followed just didn't have that kind of sauce. They blew a whole season just to get prime position for one draft, and they didn't even get the top pick. I love Jack Eichel, but I would rather the Sabres have four guys that are almost as good as him instead. 

 

To me, that will always be the move that killed the team long-term. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Skibum

[Eleven]

I see that you refer to the tank in the past tense...

 

Anyway, Darcy missed the golden tank opportunity when he matched Edmonton's offer sheet for Thomas Vanek. Had he just thrown in the towel right there, they would have had two first round picks every year for four straight years! And Edmonton stunk all of those years, so their picks would have been great! You just can't get that kind of value, ever. The actual tank that followed just didn't have that kind of sauce. They blew a whole season just to get prime position for one draft, and they didn't even get the top pick. I love Jack Eichel, but I would rather the Sabres have four guys that are almost as good as him instead. 

 

To me, that will always be the move that killed the team long-term. 

 

1.  They may not have stunk with Vanek.

 

2.  The Sabres' hands were tied after losing 23 and 48.

[Crusader1969]

Does anyone still think it was the right move?

 

1000% yes! It's the road to winning a cup! You need to have at least 2 elite players - and the only place to get them is the top of the draft

 

Also, it's way too early to say if it's a success or not. You need to wait for Guhle, Nylander, Mittelstadt and maybe the 2018 draft pick (if top 5) to be full timof NHLers to,say yes or no.

[Thorner]

1000% yes! It's the road to winning a cup! You need to have at least 2 elite players - and the only place to get them is the top of the draft

Also, it's way too early to say if it's a success or not. You need to wait for Guhle, Nylander, Mittelstadt and maybe the 2018 draft pick (if top 5) to be full timof NHLers to,say yes or no.

The bolded isn't true.

 

The funny thing about the "have to wait and see" approach with regards to coming talent, is that "the future" is perpetually "a few years away". We never have to actually be good, because it's always "all about the future". It was only a couple years ago after drafting Eichel that we were envisioning playoffs by 2017. Now it's another 3 years away. And so forth.

 

Serious questions:

 

 

- do you think Eichel is a top-3 NHL player? Top 10? Top 20?

 

- do you think the "culture of losing" comments that Foligno and Ennis made in TBN yesterday are valid?

 

 

 

 

Not really. They made the playoffs in 2010 and 2011, missed them in 2012 and commenced the tank the following season instead of trying to rebuild conventionally.

If we are talking strictly about current impact, Eichel doesn't sniff the top 40, never mind any of the options listed.

 

The tanking question is shades of grey. I don't believe tanking is objectively bad, but given who we had in charge at the time we decided to tank, and their ineptitude in terms of filling the spots created through tanking, whether through drafting or other forms of team building, it was the wrong decision for the Sabres at that time.

 

Our tank was a mistake. It didn't have to be. But it was.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Thorny

[pastajoe]

Tank was worth it and I still support it. The goals were Ekblad and McDavid. We still ended up with good consolation prizes. The issue has been the players brought in that fill out the roster, especially the bottom 6 that don't produce and the D to date. Kane, O'Reilly, and Okposo were quality pick ups. Unfortunately they couldn't convince Vesey and Butcher. They have some good prospects like Middlestat, Guhle, Pu, and Borgen.

[bcsaberks]

1000% yes! It's the road to winning a cup! You need to have at least 2 elite players - and the only place to get them is the top of the draft

 

Also, it's way too early to say if it's a success or not. You need to wait for Guhle, Nylander, Mittelstadt and maybe the 2018 draft pick (if top 5) to be full timof NHLers to,say yes or no.

I appreciate this. 

 

I supported the tank, but the last couple weeks have changed my mind.  Our tank is complete, we have 0 elite players.  I'm not buying the "keep waiting".  Chicago - Kane was year 3, Pittsburgh - Crosby year 4.  Where are we, year 3 right and bottom of league?  Our tank failed.  Next, build a competitive team through the farm please.  Red Wings, Ducks, Devils, Rangers, Sharks, Preds. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by bcSaberks

[nfreeman]

1000% yes! It's the road to winning a cup! You need to have at least 2 elite players - and the only place to get them is the top of the draft

 

Also, it's way too early to say if it's a success or not. You need to wait for Guhle, Nylander, Mittelstadt and maybe the 2018 draft pick (if top 5) to be full timof NHLers to,say yes or no.

 

This is the "sell my house to pay for lottery tickets" mindset.

 

It works once in a blue moon but leaves most of its adherents homeless.

 

(The Sabres are in the "homeless" category, BTW.)

[Thorner]

I appreciate this. 

 

I supported the tank, but the last couple weeks have changed my mind.  Our tank is complete, we have 0 elite players.  I'm not buying the "keep waiting".  Chicago - Kane was year 3, Pittsburgh - Crosby year 4.  Where are we, year 3 right and bottom of league?  Our tank failed.  Next, build a competitive team through the farm please.  Red Wings, Ducks, Devils, Rangers, Sharks, Preds.

 

Yup.

 

The Penguins made the cup final in their third Crosby year. That's this year for the Sabres.

[darksabre]

Yup.

 

The Penguins made the cup final in their third Crosby year. That's this year for the Sabres.

 

But the Penguins roster and pipeline wasn't even close to as f*cked as ours was and still is. 

[Thorner]

But the Penguins roster and pipeline wasn't even close to as f*cked as ours was and still is.

 

True. It's not a great comparison as they didn't even really tank. They just got really lucky.

 

It just narrows the list of successful tanks down by 1.

[darksabre]

True. It's not a great comparison as they didn't even really tank. They just got really lucky.

 

It just narrows the list of successful tanks down by 1.

They were really damn bad though. For several seasons before the lockout and the eventually Crosby pick. Maybe today we'd call it tanking. But I think they just sucked and rebuilt and also got lucky. The perfect storm. 

[Thorner]

They were really damn bad though. For several seasons before the lockout and the eventually Crosby pick. Maybe today we'd call it tanking. But I think they just sucked and rebuilt and also got lucky. The perfect storm.

 

Yup. A team couldn't possibly tank better if they tried. HOF level vets who don't produce anymore but are present through the transition to a truly all-time level player, accompanied by two MVP level players acquired through legitimate sucktitude.

 

Good luck replicating that as a blueprint. Even Edmonton is flailing around lately.

[nfreeman]

They were really damn bad though. For several seasons before the lockout and the eventually Crosby pick. Maybe today we'd call it tanking. But I think they just sucked and rebuilt and also got lucky. The perfect storm. 

 

 

Yup. A team couldn't possibly tank better if they tried. HOF level vets who don't produce anymore but are present through the transition to a truly all-time level player, accompanied by two MVP level players acquired through legitimate sucktitude.

 

Good luck replicating that as a blueprint. Even Edmonton is flailing around lately.

 

This is exactly my point -- if your plan relies on a perfect storm, you don't have a plan (or you do, but it's a stupid effing plan).

[Thorner]

This is exactly my point -- if your plan relies on a perfect storm, you don't have a plan (or you do, but it's a stupid effing plan).

I would probably lose it if Murray or Pegula came out and explicitly said McDavid was the plan. Regardless of the current results or whether we agree with it, the plan better have been McEichel. At least that had some inherent logic to it.

 

If it was always based on the hope and a prayer of winning the lottery, yeesh.

[darksabre]

Yup. A team couldn't possibly tank better if they tried. HOF level vets who don't produce anymore but are present through the transition to a truly all-time level player, accompanied by two MVP level players acquired through legitimate sucktitude.

 

Good luck replicating that as a blueprint. Even Edmonton is flailing around lately.

They drafted really well too in the years leading up to Crosby. It's not just that they had a couple years of top 2 picks, it's that they hit before that too. Pittsburgh sucked and drafted to fix it. They might have been successful without Crosby given the guys they picked before they got to him. But adding Crosby was the cherry on top. 

 

Our drafting for the last decade has been goddamn abysmal. Like...no one has panned out for this team or gone on to success later. We're way behind on drafting and development. 

[Thorner]

They drafted really well too in the years leading up to Crosby. It's not just that they had a couple years of top 2 picks, it's that they hit before that too. Pittsburgh sucked and drafted to fix it. They might have been successful without Crosby given the guys they picked before they got to him. But adding Crosby was the cherry on top.

Our drafting for the last decade has been goddamn abysmal. Like...no one has panned out for this team or gone on to success later. We're way behind on drafting and development.

 

Agreed. And tanking - with the wrong people in charge - only exacerbated the issue: created even more holes, that those in charge were/are apparently incapable of filling. (Whether through drafting or timely trades and signings (making them or NOT making them)

 

Maybe late to the party Botterill will prove capable of fixing the mess. I don't envy his position, however.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Thorny

[darksabre]

Agreed. And tanking - with the wrong people in charge - only exacerbated the issue: created even more holes, that those in charge were/are apparently incapable of filling. (Whether through drafting or timely trades and signings (making them or NOT making them)

 

Maybe late to the party Botterill will prove capable of fixing the mess. I don't envy his position, however.

Botterill is in a really tough spot. The best he can do is try to draft well and maybe try to restock our pipeline by taking some chances on prospects in trades. Maybe some college signings. We're in a hole.

[Randall Flagg]

Also, it's way too early to say if it's a success or not. You need to wait for Guhle, Nylander, Mittelstadt and maybe the 2018 draft pick (if top 5) to be full timof NHLers to,say yes or no.

I know PA will yell at me for this (for two reasons) and I don't feel good when I quote things posters have said from the past, because we've all said stupid or incorrect or out-of-context stuff and it's not really cool or relevant most the time, but I have to address this, because you were so adamant during the tank season about how right you were and that attitude is still prevalent here, even if our continuing suckage is making you push things down the road. 

 

Here are things you said during the tank, which were found in 5 minutes of skimming notable tank threads:

 

"If they don`t get McEichel I will predict another bottom 5-7 finish next year (70ish points). With McEichel they finish around 10-12th worst (high 70 possibly low 80s).

 

2016-17 with McEichel they finish over 90 points - ill say 50% chance they get 90 points without him.

 

In 3 years (2017-18) they finish above 90 and make the play-offs with or without McEichel."

 

Robviously: Would the Sabres be able to whiff on McDavid and Eichel (after two years of tanking, mind you) and still win the Cup?

Crusader: "Absolutely they can as this team will eventually have amazing depth and whomever they draft at 3 is going to be a high end top 6 player. I think the biggest difference will be next year because without McDavid or Eichel the team will be near the top of the draft in 2016 as well.

 

No matter how this plays out over the next few days - the Sabres will be playoff / cup contenders by 2017."

 

"Agreed - next year is the stepping stone. 75-85 points would be a great season for such a young team. 2016-17 season play-offs here we come. 

 

I hate line-ups that move Reinhart to the wing. I could see Girgensons moving to wing and being Dustin Brown 2.0.

If the Islanders go out in the 1st round - you better be sure you can sign O'Reilly to an extension. Giving up the 15-20th pick in this years draft plus another prospect for a 1 and done player seems like a steep price to pay.

 

Pysyks's health is a huge factor for this team (and for him obviously) next year - If healthy he will slot nicely into the 2nd pair D. I honestly could see Zadorov in the AHL for a year playing the #1 D role for the team. I could even see Reinhart in the AHL to start the season. Though if Reinhart plays like he did in the WJC he could pressure Eichel for the #1 Center spot.

 

Bottom Line - congrats to all Tankers and to all non-tankers - you are welcome cause you are about to be treated to the best decade in Sabres history."

 

We got the elite talent and just finished watching our sports teams lose 8 games in 11 days during what is widely held to be the worst period of time in Buffalo Sports History. The current suckage is almost 100% due to the decision to tank and its ramifications. Excuse us for not believing you that we just need to wait a couple more years, because when there was still light at the end of the tunnel it was obvious that we'd be good by 2017 apparently. There's no light at the end of the tunnel now like there was then. And we sit exactly where we sat then. 

 

But this was the only way. Just you wait and see in 3 years, and when that time comes, no wait, I meant 3 more after that. It's the only way even if real tanks can only be tied to about 5% of the cup wins in the past 3 decades.

[Thorner]

Bottom Line - congrats to all Tankers and to all non-tankers - you are welcome cause you are about to be treated to the best decade in Sabres history."

 

[ubkev]

Man. Flagg bringing the serious heat. Good post

[North Buffalo]

Wow Flagg, but had my doubts after Lehner trade... look at the Oiler with all their number 1s and still sucking. Think I said it before Sabres are still in show me mode... If this year turns into an accidental tank and Botts can add depth too then maybe we can see results in 2018 but maybe 2019 at this rate before we see playoffs... let the suffering continue :(

[SwampD]

1000% yes! It's the road to winning a cup! You need to have at least 2 elite players - and the only place to get them is the top of the draft

 

Also, it's way too early to say if it's a success or not. You need to wait for Guhle, Nylander, Mittelstadt and maybe the 2018 draft pick (if top 5) to be full timof NHLers to,say yes or no.

Those two were not a result of the Tank. We would have gotten them just by merely sucking.

[Stoner]

I would probably lose it if Murray or Pegula came out and explicitly said McDavid was the plan. Regardless of the current results or whether we agree with it, the plan better have been McEichel. At least that had some inherent logic to it.

 

If it was always based on the hope and a prayer of winning the lottery, yeesh.

They brought Erie and McDavid to the arena for a game during the McEichel Sweepstakes!

Let's also remember that Sawyer and Black were Pittsburgh guys (and Benson had the Pens as a client) (and Terry lived there and was/is a Pens/Crosby fan), so deciding to tank shouldn't have come as a surprise. Buffalo always looks to Pittsburgh. The problem is, as d4rk has pointed out, the Sabres and Pens were not in comparable positions. The Pens didn't really tank, they just sucked. They also had pieces in place before Sid (Fleury, Malkin, solid veterans etc.).

Edited November 22, 2017 by PASabreFan