Revisiting the TANK: Was it worth it?

[LGR4GM]

Ruff was fired in February 2013

Brennan, Leopold, Regehr, Pominville and Sekera all traded between February and June of 2013. 

Vanek traded in October 2013

Miller, Ott, and Halak traded in 2014

 

 

In 2012 we traded:

Kassian for Hodgson (not a tank move)

Gaustad for a 1st (could argue it was tanky but that was a good price)

2 firsts to move up and take Zemgus (again not a tank move)

Roy for Ott and Pardy ( this was done in a misguided attempt to fix our grit issue, not for tanking purposes and Hodgson was brought specifically to replace Roy (which he did not) again not a tank move)

 

That is the extent of every trade we made in 2012 if my source is correct.  We started the tank in 2013. I will concede the tank started at the end of February 2013 with the firing of Lindy Ruff. 

[Pokey Jones]

It's kind of an odd question because it gives an implication that 1) there was an alternative and 2) we actually gave a bunch of assets away in order to tank. We were already a really bad hockey team and all they did is trade away a couple b grade goalies to make sure we didn't string a few meaningless wins together at the end of the year. 

The problem, as mentioned numerous times above was in what Murray did with the draft picks he got, the poor drafting, the non-existent success in late round drafting, and the price he paid for mediocre assets like Lehner. So it's not the tank, it's just bad management.  

 

I get a sense here (and correct me if it is wrong) but people think Regier was a good GM? I never thought that myself and maybe I'm misreading it, but I don't think the team has had good management for a really long time. 

[LGR4GM]

Regier was a bad GM who couldn't draft centers to save his life, or career. 

[woods-racer]

Regier was a bad GM who couldn't draft centers to save his life, or career. 

 

He also had a shoe string budget for his scouting department for years, probably close to a decade. That had to be a large portion of his taking chances on early round prospects that failed and our lack of a deep prospect pool to this day.

 

The tank was a wise move in their situation with generational talent to be had. They just didn't have the GM to oversee it, and  previous years of good prospects on the farm for them to come out of it as quickly.

 

Our tank is trending more like that of Edmonton. We have both tanked hard and fast and got our generational talent early in the process. Pittsburgh and Chicago where really bad for 4-5 years prior to getting their generational player and had a complete farm corps ready when they drafted Kane/Crosby.

 

The last I looked at all the teams that tanked it took them 5 years for the turn around, no matter when their *star* was drafted. We have a year yet. It's just frustrating that 2 or 3 of our high end picks don't look very promising. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

We won't know if the tank was worth it or not.  We needed a generational talent and got one.  The rest of the rebuild has been so badly mismanaged to date, it makes it feel like the tank wasn't worth it.  However as I and others have written, this rebuild isn't close to complete and is not yet a complete failure.  However, we need Jbot to continue to work this roster.  The 11 new players so far have yielded mixed results.  Scandella/Pommers trade has been a major positive and the I think Pouliot, after a terrible start, has been very good of late.  The rest.........

 

If I was the GM Gorges and Moulson would have never made it out of camp.  Both would have been sent down and I'd have eaten their contracts.  This can still be done.  Once Erod and Falk are healthy both Gorges and Moulson need to go.  

  

We'll also need another 10 player turnover next year.  

 

Still there are pieces here to build around starting with Jack, ROR, Risto, McCabe and Scandella.  We need a bit of a miracle by having Nylander, Guhle, Mittelstud and Asplund make an impact and soon (within the next 2 seasons).  We also need some value depth acquisitions.   It also couldn't hurt if one of our deeper prospects, like PU, Baptiste, Malone, Smith, Olofsson etc.. end up making the team and playing well.

 

I'm not going to put odds on any this, but assuming it does work out, then we might look back here in 3 years and say the tank was a good decision after all. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Weave]

Correction, we didn’t get a generational player. Elite, yes. Generational, no.

[Scottysabres]

That's a tough call though, isn't it?  I mean, a lot of us were happy with the selection of XGMTM, particularly because he was the anti-Darcy who would freely wheel and deal to get the players he wanted.  We recognized that crappy coaching was necessary to secure the tank.  But when the Sabres (a) lost the McJesus lottery, then (b) lost the Babcock sweepstakes, the trajectory of the tank dipped significantly.  This was when XGMTM started to earn his money (or not).  He failed to hire a good coach who was a good fit for the team, and the fact that he'd spent a good portion of the assets Darcy had accumulated but failed to accelerate the rebuild meant that the hiring of XGMTM was a miss for TP.  I give him credit for shaking up the front offices of both the Bills and Sabres in the same year. 

 

It looks like the Bills have been successful, but I think they were starting from a more "built up" team than the Sabres, and the Bills have been more successful in filling holes on the team than the Sabres have.  But the Bills' success is a huge surprise; I'm not sure that's a negative reflection on what the Sabres are doing, just that, for a change, we got lucky (and from the standpoint of the Bills, continue to get lucky.  Face it, a good chunk of the 5-2 Bills record stems from their turnover differential, which might be equated to "puck luck" in hockey.  Can they sustain +2 takeaways per game?  Probably not.  Hopefully the rest of the elements continue to come together and they can continue their winning ways.)

I fully concede it is a hindsight conclusion. I don't know what the odds would be coming out of such long tenured time like Regeir and Ruff had at finding successful candidates. And while I don't believe it was a total butcher job, the Lafontaine, Nolan. Murray, Bylsma fiasco was, at the very least, a botched recipe. Imo.

Ruff was fired in February 2013

Brennan, Leopold, Regehr, Pominville and Sekera all traded between February and June of 2013. 

Vanek traded in October 2013

Miller, Ott, and Halak traded in 2014

 

 

In 2012 we traded:

Kassian for Hodgson (not a tank move)

Gaustad for a 1st (could argue it was tanky but that was a good price)

2 firsts to move up and take Zemgus (again not a tank move)

Roy for Ott and Pardy ( this was done in a misguided attempt to fix our grit issue, not for tanking purposes and Hodgson was brought specifically to replace Roy (which he did not) again not a tank move)

 

That is the extent of every trade we made in 2012 if my source is correct.  We started the tank in 2013. I will concede the tank started at the end of February 2013 with the firing of Lindy Ruff.

 

I view it through the lens of "conditions on the ground", which Pu 5hose specific moves post 6/22/12 you mentioned. Trading up for Girgs p8ck while drafting Grigo was an attempt to offset the center depth issue with youth. The Roy trade wasn't so much about grit to me as it was a concession the Hodgson - Roy 1\2 center situation had failed. Scoring continued to be a major issue. Moving Roy was going to happen, then or at seasons end. Imo.

[Doohicksie]

I fully concede it is a hindsight conclusion. I don't know what the odds would be coming out of such long tenured time like Regeir and Ruff had at finding successful candidates. And while I don't believe it was a total butcher job, the Lafontaine, Nolan. Murray, Bylsma fiasco was, at the very least, a botched recipe. Imo.

 

Also bear in mind that TPegs was still a neophyte when it came to running a hockey team at that point.  He's learning from this process too.  His first round of executive hires for both the Bills and Sabres kind of sucked.  I think he did much better this time around.  The Bills are showing it (so far, so good) but the Sabres haven't seen the same success yet.

[Pokey Jones]

Correction, we didn’t get a generational player. Elite, yes. Generational, no.

Sadly, I think this is true. 

[Crusader1969]

Getting Jack Eichel absolutely did not make the tank worth it.

The goal of the tank was to set us up for a decade of cup(s) contention.

 

A repeat of 2006/2011 will not be worth it. We didn’t need the past four years plus this one to achieve that.

What we were aiming for is Pittsburgh/Chicago or a worst-case of Washington.

 

It’s too soon to call it a failure, but for it to be a success most of Kane O’Reilly Reinhart Risto Nylander Mittelstadt Lehner Eichel and a handful of our other 2013-2018 picks will have to comprise the bulk of the core of a cup contender.

 

Since 1/4 of the players you listed are still not on the Sabres, yes its wayyy to early.

[spndnchz]

Again? JFC get over it.

[Crusader1969]

The Eichel tank was worth it one million percent. Perhaps where the Sabres went wrong was ANOTHER tank for the Matthews/Laine lottery should have been done. Imagine Eichel and Laine on this team as an example. And in addition, imagine this roster with better contracts and not ones that are saddling them down and will continue to for awhile.

absolutely correct. They need that 2nd elite level player. I called for the Tank in 2016, I think they had 2 meaningless victories at the end of the year that moved them ahead of the Jets.

 

Should clarify, not an outright Tank where they sold off all their assets but a tank where you start an ECHL level goalie for the last 5 /6 games of the season. The leafs did this by starting Tank Commander Garret Sparks down the stretch.

 

Are we seeing a subtle talk again this year? It would explain a few of the roster decisions we are seeing

[Jacque Richard]

No. Their so far away from being good and consistent. Wasting time doing what.

[Thorner]

absolutely correct. They need that 2nd elite level player. I called for the Tank in 2016, I think they had 2 meaningless victories at the end of the year that moved them ahead of the Jets.

Should clarify, not an outright Tank where they sold off all their assets but a tank where you start an ECHL level goalie for the last 5 /6 games of the season. The leafs did this by starting Tank Commander Garret Sparks down the stretch.

Are we seeing a subtle talk again this year? It would explain a few of the roster decisions we are seeing

No, we aren't tanking. We are just bad. It's not about acquiring a 2nd elite level player and boom we are good. It's about building a cohesive team, something we haven't been close to in years.

 

Bottoming out yet again this year would be the absolute worst thing, regardless of who we draft. These guys are damaged and another brutal season won't do them any good, and would be indicative of just how low the talent level overall is on the team.

 

It's a catch-22. If we are bad enough to deserve to pick top 3, we are so bad that the ensuing player isn't going to be be able to get us out of the hole.

 

We need wins. We need the culture change that comes with that. We'll continue being terrible if we continue finishing at the bottom.

[Crusader1969]

No, we aren't tanking. We are just bad. It's not about acquiring a 2nd elite level player and boom we are good. It's about building a cohesive team, something we haven't been close to in years.

 

Bottoming out yet again this year would be the absolute worst thing, regardless of who we draft. These guys are damaged and another brutal season won't do them any good, and would be indicative of just how low the talent level overall is on the team.

 

It's a catch-22. If we are bad enough to deserve to pick top 3, we are so bad that the ensuing player isn't going to be be able to get us out of the hole.

 

We need wins. We need the culture change that comes with that. We'll continue being terrible if we continue finishing at the bottom.

 

Are there 5 worse line-ups in the NHL right now? 

 

They look like a bottom 5 team to me, lets get Bailey and Baptiste back to Rochester and to help make the Amerks a winning play-off team. 

 

The problem isn`t effort and not having the will to win. Its talent and depth and the only thing that will improve that is time.   

 

I`ll wait for till the 24 game mark or so but if this team is still floundering - sign me up another (semi) Tank.

[Jacque Richard]

If the Sabres had talent the Sabres would fook that up as well and they still wouldn’t win. Zero confidence with the franchise

[Pokey Jones]

No, we aren't tanking. We are just bad. It's not about acquiring a 2nd elite level player and boom we are good. It's about building a cohesive team, something we haven't been close to in years.

 

Yes, I don't think we are going to transparently "tank" again but winning the lottery and getting Dahlin won't hurt.

 

The number of dumb moves and mistakes this team has made over the last however many years you want to go back has to be near the most in the league. You rebuild with solid drafts and numerous players not just one guy. I look at a team like Philadelphia who were never as bad as us, but pretty bad a few years back and they have quietly filled the pipeline and seem poised to build one of the best defensive corps in the league. Sure they lucked into the 2nd overall pick last year but none of the rest of their new people were first or second overall picks, they were just good solid draft choices. Good scouting and patient rebuilding. Just one example.

If JBot does this the right way, it sadly has to be viewed as year one in a long process. I fear we aren't going to be good for a while yet and if he screws it up maybe even longer. 

[nfreeman]

Does anyone still think it was the right move?

[WildCard]

Does anyone still think it was the right move?

Yes

[Eleven]

Does anyone still think it was the right move?

 

I didn't think it was the right move until the Sabres were mathematically eliminated (or nearly so).

Edited November 20, 2017 by Eleven

[ddaryl]

obviously the tank was a failure in hindsight, but we were spinning our wheels in the mud before the tank...  I am speechless about what this team is right now. It makes no sense at all to me that we are actually this bad at this point...

[WildCard]

obviously the tank was a failure in hindsight, but we were spinning our wheels in the mud before the tank...  I am speechless about what this team is right now. It makes no sense at all to me that we are actually this bad at this point...

I don't think the tank was a failure, but I do agree that we are a failure as a whole.

 

As for the bold, I agree. I don't even talk about the team anymore because I've run out of answers 

[nfreeman]

Yes

 

Serious questions: 

 

- do you think Eichel is a top-3 NHL player?  Top 10?  Top 20?

 

- do you think the "culture of losing" comments that Foligno and Ennis made in TBN yesterday are valid?

 

 

obviously the tank was a failure in hindsight, but we were spinning our wheels in the mud before the tank...  I am speechless about what this team is right now. It makes no sense at all to me that we are actually this bad at this point...

 

Not really.  They made the playoffs in 2010 and 2011, missed them in 2012 and commenced the tank the following season instead of trying to rebuild conventionally.

[WildCard]

Serious questions: 

 

- do you think Eichel is a top-3 NHL player?  Top 10?  Top 20?

 

- do you think the "culture of losing" comments that Foligno and Ennis made in TBN yesterday are valid?

 

 

 

Not really.  They made the playoffs in 2010 and 2011, missed them in 2012 and commenced the tank the following season instead of trying to rebuild conventionally.

- Top 10

 

- Yes, I think those comments are valid. Toronto doesn't have a culture of losing though

[R_Dudley]

Serious questions: 

 

- do you think Eichel is a top-3 NHL player?  Top 10?  Top 20?

 

- do you think the "culture of losing" comments that Foligno and Ennis made in TBN yesterday are valid?

 

 

 

Not really.  They made the playoffs in 2010 and 2011, missed them in 2012 and commenced the tank the following season instead of trying to rebuild conventionally.

No I don't think the tank was worth it. I would have preferred the rebuild mode.  

- Eichel, the way he is playing now top 10 but closer to going Top 20 range then top 3.

-Absolutely think those comments are valid but also picked up on the it's not tolerated in those orgs, they are made to practice it till they get it right is what heard. No coddling allowed. 

 

The real problem as others have posited isn't necessarily which road we traveled but who was driving us their. We have all seen examples of teams that consistently reload and stay competitive w/o ever having tanked.

 

Where is that analytics department the Sabre's were supposed to have. An interesting study would be to take the top 2 teams from both conferences in the SC finals over the last 5-7 years and look at how their rosters were built to get there.  How many tank built teams vs. the draft, occasional trade built teams have won cups?  

 

My guess is that it would come out pretty even. Then it just comes down to having a solid competent Hockey GM and scouting staff for whichever road your traveling that can identify good and regularly Very good to great hockey players. 

 

I am also going to speculate that besides being Canadian through and through and wanting the Toronto job, Babcock may just have looked at our pipeline and saw more fools gold then XGMTM and I thought I saw.