18,050

[darksabre]

Thanks for that post.
 

A couple comments. First, I think there is an argument to be made that construction workers, loggers, iron workers, truckers, etc., provide plenty of tangible public service even though they are first and foremost working for private enterprises. The lumber they harvest, the foundations they lay, the goods they transport, are all done for us, and done at a cost that goes beyond just financial. These people work terrible hours for terrible pay in terrible conditions to make sure that rest of us can live comfortable lives. That sounds like public service to me. 

Second, I hope no one is construing my comments as unappreciative towards police, fire fighters, etc. My problem is more with the intense culture of worship that seems to surround them now, whether they want it or not. And I know plenty of ex-soldiers who don't want it. They don't want to be elevated so highly over the people they served. 

I would like to look at this whole thing and believe that there is nothing inappropriate going on. But I can't get there anymore. 

[Stoner]

Smell, sports teams have certainly jumped on the bandwagon of honoring military and first responders, part of which, clearly, is a marketing and PR move. It's golden. (As is teams' footage of sick kids with players; one of the first things Jack did when he got to town was visit Roswell, and the cameras were rolling.)

 

There was only one moment (after the anthem) last night when almost everyone in the building stood, even moreso than the goal, and that's when a member of the military was honored. It's part of the show now. Come to think of it, when did the purpose of playing the anthem become "to honor our men and women in uniform"?

[Eleven]

Smell, sports teams have certainly jumped on the bandwagon of honoring military and first responders, part of which, clearly, is a marketing and PR move. It's golden. (As is teams' footage of sick kids with players; one of the first things Jack did when he got to town was visit Roswell, and the cameras were rolling.)

 

There was only one moment (after the anthem) last night when almost everyone in the building stood, even moreso than the goal, and that's when a member of the military was honored. It's part of the show now. Come to think of it, when did the purpose of playing the anthem become "to honor our men and women in uniform"?

 

Now THAT stuff annoys the hell out of me.

I'm fine. You guys have fun buying into the continued post 9-11 worship nonsense. He's no more deserving of this than the thousands of other people who die on the job in this country every year doing way more dangerous and unsung work. But f*ck them I guess since they opted for a less easily politicized career.

 

Cops are special, but they aren't THIS special. Just like all the other people who helped out at Ground Zero who are still not getting their due and are forever overshadowed. Only cops and firefighters matter, screw everyone else, eh? They're the only heroes.

 

Me?!  You're kidding, right?

 

And it's not about what he does or doesn't deserve.  It's about how many people wanted to go, and the one building in town that could accommodate them.  It's not like he rose from the dead and demanded tribute.  If you pass, and 10,000 people want to go to your funeral, I hope there's a way to accommodate them, as well.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Eleven

[LTS]

Thanks for that post.

 

A couple comments. First, I think there is an argument to be made that construction workers, loggers, iron workers, truckers, etc., provide plenty of tangible public service even though they are first and foremost working for private enterprises. The lumber they harvest, the foundations they lay, the goods they transport, are all done for us, and done at a cost that goes beyond just financial. These people work terrible hours for terrible pay in terrible conditions to make sure that rest of us can live comfortable lives. That sounds like public service to me. 

 

Second, I hope no one is construing my comments as unappreciative towards police, fire fighters, etc. My problem is more with the intense culture of worship that seems to surround them now, whether they want it or not. And I know plenty of ex-soldiers who don't want it. They don't want to be elevated so highly over the people they served. 

 

I would like to look at this whole thing and believe that there is nothing inappropriate going on. But I can't get there anymore. 

 

Construction workers, iron workers, and truckers do not respond to a 911 call when shots are fired.  They may be great people and they may provide tangible value to society through their labor contributions but it is not tied directly to public safety.  They don't have to walk into a burning building to put out a fire.  They could just let it burn to the ground.  I'm not saying they would, but they aren't tasked with that job.  

 

Here's the thing, even if the missing officer was publicized as part of some media agenda are you also implying that 10,000 people are caught up in it and are going to attend to push that agenda?  Are you implying that someone rounded up 10,000 (estimated right?) and convinced them to attend?

 

 

Smell, sports teams have certainly jumped on the bandwagon of honoring military and first responders, part of which, clearly, is a marketing and PR move. It's golden. (As is teams' footage of sick kids with players; one of the first things Jack did when he got to town was visit Roswell, and the cameras were rolling.)

 

There was only one moment (after the anthem) last night when almost everyone in the building stood, even moreso than the goal, and that's when a member of the military was honored. It's part of the show now. Come to think of it, when did the purpose of playing the anthem become "to honor our men and women in uniform"?

 

It is PR.  Although the article says that the Pegulas were not looking for publicity on this one.  When you announce a funeral to be held at KBC I guess the next question from the media is.. who's paying for it?

 

All of this is PR.  There's no denying that.

[That Aud Smell]

My problem is more with the intense culture of worship that seems to surround them now, whether they want it or not. 

 

It's a real problem.

 

For some, it's unwanted.

 

For a majority, I think, it's accepted and/or welcomed. And that dynamic distorts the perspectives of a great many -- those who serve(d) and those who are buying into the idolatry.

 

Smell, sports teams have certainly jumped on the bandwagon of honoring military and first responders, part of which, clearly, is a marketing and PR move. It's golden. (As is teams' footage of sick kids with players; one of the first things Jack did when he got to town was visit Roswell, and the cameras were rolling.)

 

There was only one moment (after the anthem) last night when almost everyone in the building stood, even moreso than the goal, and that's when a member of the military was honored. It's part of the show now. Come to think of it, when did the purpose of playing the anthem become "to honor our men and women in uniform"?

 

Oh, I hear you on the PR angle. (We can leave aside the debate regarding the authenticity or desirability of pro athletes' very public involvement with sick kids for now.)

 

As for the original purpose of playing the anthem at sporting events, I'm too lazy to look up why it was started. I thought I read once upon a time that it was done to honor those who'd died in service? Anyway, in a PSE-controlled pro sports franchise, you can bet your overly-twanged-sangin'-voice that the purpose of playing the anthem is to honor our men and women in uniform.

Here's the thing, even if the missing officer was publicized as part of some media agenda are you also implying that 10,000 people are caught up in it and are going to attend to push that agenda?  Are you implying that someone rounded up 10,000 (estimated right?) and convinced them to attend?

 

Re the above, below

 

It's a real problem.

 

For some, it's unwanted.

 

For a majority, I think, it's accepted and/or welcomed. And that dynamic distorts the perspectives of a great many -- those who serve(d) and those who are buying into the idolatry.

[dudacek]

There’s no doubt that the deification of the armed forces is designed by the powers that be to foster support for their continued use or misuse. There is also no doubt that many make sacrifices worthy of respect and recognition.

 

I don’t think the potential for the propagandization of an event like this outweighs the potential for healing provided by a community mourning together.

[That Aud Smell]

Construction workers, iron workers, and truckers do not respond to a 911 call when shots are fired.  They may be great people and they may provide tangible value to society through their labor contributions but it is not tied directly to public safety.  They don't have to walk into a burning building to put out a fire.  They could just let it burn to the ground.  I'm not saying they would, but they aren't tasked with that job.  

 

And, yeah. I don't think anyone is ever going to make headway with the contention that people who work dangerous jobs in industries like logging, construction, and fishing are as equally deserving of public gratitude as those who take an oath to serve and protect.

[LTS]

And, yeah. I don't think anyone is ever going to make headway with the contention that people who work dangerous jobs in industries like logging, construction, and fishing are as equally deserving of public gratitude as those who take an oath to serve and protect.

 

I mean, that said, I love the guys who look over the airplane before I fly to make sure its in good shape.  You ever think they think about the responsibility on their shoulders?

[Stoner]

And, yeah. I don't think anyone is ever going to make headway with the contention that people who work dangerous jobs in industries like logging, construction, and fishing are as equally deserving of public gratitude as those who take an oath to serve and protect.

Please rise, remove your caps and various headdresses, silence your devices and join Doug Allen in honoring our longshorepeople and electricians... Woooooooo, Duuuuuugggggggiiiiieeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

There’s no doubt that the deification of the armed forces is designed by the powers that be to foster support for their continued use or misuse. There is also no doubt that many make sacrifices worthy of respect and recognition.

 

I don’t think the potential for the propagandization of an event like this outweighs the potential for healing provided by a community mourning together.

It's always occurs to me that the support people show our military would mean so much more if their own kids could be in their shoes. I went to a high school graduation in June at a fairly affluent suburb of The Burgh. The crowd stood and saluted the five or six kids out of a class of 500 who were about to enter the military. Enough said.

[SwampD]

There’s no doubt that the deification of the armed forces is designed by the powers that be to foster support for their continued use or misuse. There is also no doubt that many make sacrifices worthy of respect and recognition.

 

I don’t think the potential for the propagandization of an event like this outweighs the potential for healing provided by a community mourning together.

I'm pretty sure that I believe almost the exact opposite of this.

[Stoner]

I'm pretty sure that I believe almost the exact opposite of this.

Healing for whom, right? I can only imagine that for the family, it's pretty overwhelming.

[dudacek]

Healing for whom, right? I can only imagine that for the family, it's pretty overwhelming.

That’s where I’m going with this, primarily the family of the fallen. I’ve read heard and experienced how community support is what gets them through. But also the families of his peers, for whom this kind of end is a daily concern.

Edited October 25, 2017 by dudacek

[dudacek]

And just as an addendum, my views are shaped largely by my rural Canadian experience.

From my viewings from afar, your rituals tend to be coloured with a far greater nationalistic streak than ours.

[Randall Flagg]

Please rise, remove your caps and various headdresses, silence your devices and join Doug Allen in honoring our longshorepeople and electricians... Woooooooo, Duuuuuugggggggiiiiieeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

It's always occurs to me that the support people show our military would mean so much more if their own kids could be in their shoes. I went to a high school graduation in June at a fairly affluent suburb of The Burgh. The crowd stood and saluted the five or six kids out of a class of 500 who were about to enter the military. Enough said.

I had an interesting experience with this. At my bro's graduation, we weren't supposed to clap until all the names were read and all the students had collected their diplomas, but every year they break that rule for the people who signed up for the military. I got a lot of ###### because I wasn't clapping. I couldn't bring myself to clap for a person that beat another kid into seizures, and then kept on beating, while his buddies who also joined blocked the doors so teachers and other help couldn't get in and stop the fight. For fun, not because the kid had done anything. I also couldn't bring myself to clap for a kid that would play pranks on mentally handicapped students for fun, making their lives a living hell. And so on. So I didn't clap and I got ostracized for it. Meh. 

 

This is in no way meant to imply anything about people who serve. It's more to show that some people really don't like if you don't "respect" the military exactly the same way they do, which is the "objectively right" way to respect the military and therefore the entity of America and therefore Jesus Christ and the creator of the universe himself. I say this last part because the lines between all of these things get blurred a lot. Is CK protesting the troops? Or does he hate America? I've heard people say that he hates God because of his actions during the anthem. But dont' forget that he hates police too. They're all one conglomerate "America ball". 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[North Buffalo]

Been to one military funeral at Arlington Cemetary for a mentor who died due to the mental ravages after years of coping with his Vietnam War wounds... Lou Puller, a marine hit by a booby trap in Vietnam, son of Chesty Puller most decorated Marine in US History, a Pentagon lawyer and father. A good man... those who put themselves in harms way in service for one’s country should be recognized. That sport does it I am of two minds. I see dr4k’s point about it being exploitive, but also see value in the recognition of the self sacrifice. PS My Dad, LT EOD Navy frogman would never join one of these honorings... not the type. Though when we got him a T-Shirt from Bullshirts in Coronado Bay that had a silohet of a frogman with a m16 emblazoned with EOD and “Original Frogman” on it you could see the pride in his eyes. He is 83 and still alive, though would much rather be remembered for his teaching, professor of English at UB and his music jazz trombone and banjo than be genuflected before a sporting event.

 

 

So as far as this discussion, I dont have strong feelings one way or another, but agree it has gotten a bit much lately.

[darksabre]

And just as an addendum, my views are shaped largely by my rural Canadian experience.

From my viewings from afar, your rituals tend to be coloured with a far greater nationalistic streak than ours.

It's always been that way, but the nationalism has become more harsh since 9-11. It used to just be little flags at the cemetery on Memorial Day and firetrucks in parades. Now it's a cudgel used by conservatives and representatives of the state to shame people into not voicing their dissent. 

[North Buffalo]

It's always been that way, but the nationalism has become more harsh since 9-11. It used to just be little flags at the cemetery on Memorial Day and firetrucks in parades. Now it's a cudgel used by conservatives and representatives of the state to shame people into not voicing their dissent.

 

It happened after WWII, understandable.. Edited October 25, 2017 by North Buffalo

[MattPie]

And just as an addendum, my views are shaped largely by my rural Canadian Austrian experience.

From my viewings from afar, your German rituals tend to be coloured with a far greater nationalistic streak than ours.

 

FTFY.

[josie]

It is difficult to construe anything right now as anything but a statement. I think this passed the "this is a really nice gesture for a serving member of the community who passed in a tragic and unusual manner" mark and has turned into spectacle. Articles "urging" people to come out and wave flags on the route, etc... this isn't normal. It either is setting a new standard, or is abnormal for some reason, and at the risk of sounding like a total piece of sh!t, I don't see why this particular event has garnered this magnitude of pomp. Will we see the KBC rented out for every KIA/Officer/Firefighter moving forward? I don't know. Should we? I don't know. I don't feel we should, for most of the reasons presented by others above. 

 

One of my friends is engaged to a man who was best friends with and was part of the deceased small unit (4 guys) in Iraq.

 

They're mourning and have been hounded by the press about his relationship with the Officer. She's remained fairly quiet about the whole thing, and I can't help but feel all of this press rings hollow. Most of these people don't care about Officer Lehner. This isn't for him. This is for national news agencies, to see photos of the former K9 partner loyally staring at the coffin, the arena solemnly filled with good Americans, the streets lined by mourners waiting in the rain as the (rightfully) incredible parade of servicemen/women escorts the body (in a Harley hearse, no less, which I think is a neat personal touch) to the cemetery. I can almost feel those pictures being popped into Photoshop to have big bold soundbite messages written across the tops and bottoms, to circulate and be used as fodder in more polarized twitter fights. Maybe I'm a cynical c*nt. Well, I know I am. But this is worthy of discussion. 

 

He has become a symbol. And Pegulas pouring in the money is certainly eye catching. 

[Drunkard]

I had an interesting experience with this. At my bro's graduation, we weren't supposed to clap until all the names were read and all the students had collected their diplomas, but every year they break that rule for the people who signed up for the military. I got a lot of ###### because I wasn't clapping. I couldn't bring myself to clap for a person that beat another kid into seizures, and then kept on beating, while his buddies who also joined blocked the doors so teachers and other help couldn't get in and stop the fight. For fun, not because the kid had done anything. I also couldn't bring myself to clap for a kid that would play pranks on mentally handicapped students for fun, making their lives a living hell. And so on. So I didn't clap and I got ostracized for it. Meh. 

 

This is in no way meant to imply anything about people who serve. It's more to show that some people really don't like if you don't "respect" the military exactly the same way they do, which is the "objectively right" way to respect the military and therefore the entity of America and therefore Jesus Christ and the creator of the universe himself. I say this last part because the lines between all of these things get blurred a lot. Is CK protesting the troops? Or does he hate America? I've heard people say that he hates God because of his actions during the anthem. But dont' forget that he hates police too. They're all one conglomerate "America ball". 

 

Hey now, there's no reason to bring Casey Mittelstadt into this mess.

 

I like to think I see both sides of this issue. My Dad served in the Marine Corps for 26 years and change and based on his advice I never enlisted but I've grown up around members of the military my entire life. On the surface it seems great to honor the troops but I don't really trust groups who wrap themselves in Patriotism to serve an agenda. As for incorporating it into sporting events, I find that even more of an eyebrow raiser. It's tough to accept that these big money leagues are really honoring the troops when you know they are charging the military good money to do these fly overs and other events. The same goes for whatever they call the pink month in the NFL for breast cancer awareness. I can't remember the figures but only a small portion of the profits (not even revenues if I remember correctly) actually go towards breast cancer research and/or organization that help patients/victims. Sure they are raising awareness, but it's also and easy way to boost sales and pump up the PR machine to make them seem like caring organizations.

[dudacek]

It is difficult to construe anything right now as anything but a statement. I think this passed the "this is a really nice gesture for a serving member of the community who passed in a tragic and unusual manner" mark and has turned into spectacle. Articles "urging" people to come out and wave flags on the route, etc... this isn't normal. It either is setting a new standard, or is abnormal for some reason, and at the risk of sounding like a total piece of sh!t, I don't see why this particular event has garnered this magnitude of pomp. Will we see the KBC rented out for every KIA/Officer/Firefighter moving forward? I don't know. Should we? I don't know. I don't feel we should, for most of the reasons presented by others above. 

 

One of my friends is engaged to a man who was best friends with and was part of the deceased small unit (4 guys) in Iraq.

 

They're mourning and have been hounded by the press about his relationship with the Officer. She's remained fairly quiet about the whole thing, and I can't help but feel all of this press rings hollow. Most of these people don't care about Officer Lehner. This isn't for him. This is for national news agencies, to see photos of the former K9 partner loyally staring at the coffin, the arena solemnly filled with good Americans, the streets lined by mourners waiting in the rain as the (rightfully) incredible parade of servicemen/women escorts the body (in a Harley hearse, no less, which I think is a neat personal touch) to the cemetery. I can almost feel those pictures being popped into Photoshop to have big bold soundbite messages written across the tops and bottoms, to circulate and be used as fodder in more polarized twitter fights. Maybe I'm a cynical c*nt. Well, I know I am. But this is worthy of discussion. 

 

He has become a symbol. And Pegulas pouring in the money is certainly eye catching.

 

(Quietly exits conversation about American politics, reminding himself how his lack of firsthand experience with the situations in being discussed tends to make his observations questionable at best.)

[josie]

(Quietly exits conversation about American politics, reminding himself how his lack of firsthand experience with the situations in being discussed tends to make his observations questionable at best.)

Nah man, I think our main problem is we don't have ENOUGH outside POVs. 

 

But yeah, that's all I had to say, too. I'm gonna back out now too. I have a lot of opinions and this isn't the place to put 'em haha 

[That Aud Smell]

You gotta love how the banished P thread has a way of rearing its ugly head.

[SwampD]

You gotta love how the banished P thread has a way of rearing its ugly head.

I haven't seen a stitch of politics in here. I think that's the problem. We have conflated issues for so long we can't tell them apart anymore.

[nfreeman]

Do we really need the word "conflate?"  Not just in this thread, but in life?  Isn't it just inherently annoying?