So what is Jbot’s plan for the Sabres?

[North Buffalo]

I still think it is overall talent and the D while still developing is not the overall problem imo.  Its lack of scorers on offense.  Kane takes too many shots not to score more, but at least he is... Sam needs a scorer on his wing and the Sabres just have too many quys that are not snipers... KO recovery is a big issue... Not sure it is attitude so much as they need some young guys to step up... I get it the some of the guys the Sabres have drafted recently are not up yet.... Nylander hurt, Asplund still developing and Middlestud too.  Glotov a maybe and same with Pu, but if the Sabres do get a top 5 pick, I expect a scorer either D or winger....  Millbutt was right, they lack overall talent.

[Pokey Jones]

Again, if you can outline exactly what management will do differently once they get scared by the fans "demanding more", that they were hesitant to do before that threshold was crossed, that would be great. 

 

The idea that the mental state of millions of fans spread around the earth are keeping management from doing something they know will fix the team, but won't do until this acceptance of the fans changes (like what, firing coaches? GMs? trading players? tanking? not-tanking? replacing the entire scouting department? our owners have done ALL of this) is completely baseless until you or the other posters that insinuate that the fans have anything to do with the state of the team can describe to me what this thing is. 

I just think if the fans demand more they get more. Especially from the players themselves.

As an example. The hated Bruins. I remember reading an interview with Krug, a little guy, who dropped the gloves his first time saying words to the affect of I felt, as a Bruin I had to, i had to stand up, it's what the fans expect here and after I did that I felt i won them over. 

maybe its a silly example, and its a hated team, but that is the idea. In Buffalo they get bored with booing rather quickly. 

[Weave]

No way of knowing who the real problems are, it'd just be speculation. Maybe its the fans not demanding more? The city? The source of this losing culture might have many forms. As for the players, its anyone who has been here a while and gotten used to losing as something acceptable. It's often the same, if the guy beside you makes twice your salary and he's not busting his butt every night maybe you start taking a little time off too. 

I don't have all the answers to this situation, but I will insist the culture of this team is the biggest problem. If you don't change it, nothing will ever change as a whole. And the proof is in the endless futility we see year after year. 

 

There is a river of green slime in the sewers under the arena.

[LGR4GM]

There is a river of green slime in the sewers under the arena.

only because it is Halloween week

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBTlrZSbsg4

[Randall Flagg]

I just think if the fans demand more they get more. Especially from the players themselves.

As an example. The hated Bruins. I remember reading an interview with Krug, a little guy, who dropped the gloves his first time saying words to the affect of I felt, as a Bruin I had to, i had to stand up, it's what the fans expect here and after I did that I felt i won them over.

maybe its a silly example, and its a hated team, but that is the idea. In Buffalo they get bored with booing rather quickly.

Can you statistically outline the ways in which fans of good teams "demand more", it's correlation to on-ice success, and again, the thing that the team just won't do until they're desperate enough, that they know could make them good now?

[LGR4GM]

You would think the quiet atmosphere and not selling out games would send the message loud and clear that Buffalo fans aren't all happy and sunshine about the way that team plays.  

 

PA did you complain about fans booing at one point?

[Radar]

Pokey, fans demanding more doesn't get more unless their demanding with their pocketbook. I think this team was over evaluated by a lot of fans. The rebuild started from point zero. I do believe there is now something to build around now though.

[MattPie]

Pokey, fans demanding more doesn't get more unless their demanding with their pocketbook. I think this team was over evaluated by a lot of fans. The rebuild started from point zero. I do believe there is now something to build around now though.

 

This still supposes that there's some move out there that A: will make the Sabres better long term B: JBot/etc. knows about C: and somehow isn't being made because the fans aren't mad enough. Yes, moves may get made if the fans get angry enough, but are they really good moves all the time or just "hey, we're doing something" to mollify the fans.

[LTS]

No way of knowing who the real problems are, it'd just be speculation. Maybe its the fans not demanding more? The city? The source of this losing culture might have many forms. As for the players, its anyone who has been here a while and gotten used to losing as something acceptable. It's often the same, if the guy beside you makes twice your salary and he's not busting his butt every night maybe you start taking a little time off too. 

I don't have all the answers to this situation, but I will insist the culture of this team is the biggest problem. If you don't change it, nothing will ever change as a whole. And the proof is in the endless futility we see year after year. 

 

The fans booed the team off the ice in the second game of the season if I recall.  Saying there is a losing culture is easy because the teams (Bills and Sabres) have been unsuccessful for a long time.  Fans can choose to not go to the games but at some point that won't matter.  Let's be real here.

 

Every suggestion of blow it up comes with the implication that you will hire the right person to rebuild it.  They JUST hired a new GM.  There has to be time for that GM to do things.  You don't change a team over in a year.  If Tim Murray was the wrong guy then it set the team back further and now there's a longer distance to recovery. 

 

And again I say, you speak of the culture of the team. Who instills that culture?  The only guys still here are the equipment people, are they the problem? New coach, new GM, 10 new players on the roster.  The guys who have been here longest have been here for 5 years and no one thinks they are the problem.  The next longest has been here 4 years and no one thinks he's the problem.  Where is the problem?  At some point the only thing people are left with is some insinuation that these players who have busted their butts their entire lives to play hockey because they want to win the Stanley Cup somehow become complacent the moment they step foot in Buffalo.

 

If that's the case, if there's some curse of Buffalo that exists then the best bet to recovery is to move the team elsewhere right?  Either that or someone better hire some witch doctor to come and cleanse the city.  It used to be that people would point to Buffalo as a dump but now it continually is noted as a city on the rise, a city that is changing dramatically.  I feel pretty good that you can't even point to Buffalo being a blue-collar town anymore.

 

There are no instant fixes and that's what people have to accept and sometimes changing the remedy in the middle of the recovery can cause a setback.  This is what we are facing.  The change in leadership has temporarily changed the team.  Only time will tell if the change leads to improvement, status quo, or decline.  Personally I think it leads to improvement and I think we all get to see it this year.

 

There is a river of green slime in the sewers under the arena.

 

Nickelodeon had green slime.  Ghostbusters was pink.  :)

[Wyldnwoody44]

Or, it's ooze, and shredder is lurking in the sewers beneath buffalo..... Lauren hall can be April O'Neil, and RJ can be master splinter

[dudacek]

I can’t speak to the mindset of the people of Buffalo, but the Sabres became bad largely because they chose to be bad. And they’ve discovered the law of inertia applies to hockey teams too.

 

The trouble I have with “we have to change the culture” is the unspoken implication that this hasn’t been recognized and nothing has been done about it.

 

Pegula recognized there was a problem with his organization: he decided a lack of discipline, character, communication and structure was at the root.

He dismissed the two most important people in the hockey department and hired a positive, disciplined, organized communicator from a winning culture to fix it.

Botterill, in turn, hired another positive communicator from a winning culture as coach.

He got rid of most of his coaches, most of his scouts, most of his senior administrators and half of his NHL roster.

 

There has been a seismic change in organizational culture.

 

What hasn’t happened is

A) sufficient time for a new culture to cement itself

B) sufficient time to develop and upgrade the talent.

 

It remains to be seen if the culture, and skill level will improve because of the changes, but if the situation is as bad as Pokey and other “realists” suggest, it would asinine to expect to see significant progress one month into the season. Culture is not a switch that can be turned on and off.

Edited October 27, 2017 by dudacek

[Pokey Jones]

Well, the fact that despite this team being a losing s###show for years, I have been viewed as too pessimistic and so on from day one. This illustrates clearly to me that many of you have lowered the bar quite a bit.

This team reminds me of the Harold Ballard era Leafs when fans had just given up..........but they went to the games anyway and so nothing changed for ages.  

 

I don't do any other hockey sites but have been on many football ones. An example of a team that expects winning is the Steelers. They lose 2 in a row on those sites and all hell breaks loose. There is a culture and an expectation and it shows on the field. Players become Steelers. Eichel has said Buffalo has been good to him and he wants to do more, but I think Pominville is the only other guy on the roster who has talked like he wants to bleed blue and gold. 

 

Honestly for me, it all starts with Moulson. He should simply be removed from the equation. You can't have a $5 million dollar man floating around the roster doing nothing and expect to develop a hard working effort filled culture of hockey.   You get rid of the crap even if it means taking a step back and you build with an attitude first. So he goes - anywhere but on the ice - and then you keep removing the slackers and the primadonas for as long as it takes.

[French Collection]

I like your idea of banishing Moulson, there is no bang for your buck and that hurts the culture you want to create.

 

I don't know what fan revolt will accomplish. A GM making a quick trade is risky because others know he is desperate.

 

The Habs fans are up in arms over their start but I don't think their attitude will spark a winning streak. It may get their GM fired, but the season may not be saved.

 

Our GM and Coach are new and need time to turn things around. I'm so fed up with losing it hurts, but I'm willing to give these guys way more time, even if we miss the playoffs again. I hate admitting this but I have to be realistic.

[Pokey Jones]

I knew Montreal made a big mistake when they hired Julien. He is total old school and it's a new era. This was only a matter of time. 

 

I agree that JBot and Phil should get time, but I'm a little discouraged with some of Housley's we were so close type of rhetoric. I know he is trying to win over the locker room, but I'd like to see a little more of a this isn't acceptable any more kind of attitude.

 

A "revolt" is unrealistic, I know that, but complacency is even worse. If you tweak it it'll take a long time, if you make big moves you'll take a step back but then a leap forward. Not a tank, but a full reset.   

[Randall Flagg]

Well, the fact that despite this team being a losing s###show for years, I have been viewed as too pessimistic and so on from day one. This illustrates clearly to me that many of you have lowered the bar quite a bit.

This team reminds me of the Harold Ballard era Leafs when fans had just given up..........but they went to the games anyway and so nothing changed for ages.  

 

I don't do any other hockey sites but have been on many football ones. An example of a team that expects winning is the Steelers. They lose 2 in a row on those sites and all hell breaks loose. There is a culture and an expectation and it shows on the field. Players become Steelers. Eichel has said Buffalo has been good to him and he wants to do more, but I think Pominville is the only other guy on the roster who has talked like he wants to bleed blue and gold. 

 

Honestly for me, it all starts with Moulson. He should simply be removed from the equation. You can't have a $5 million dollar man floating around the roster doing nothing and expect to develop a hard working effort filled culture of hockey.   You get rid of the crap even if it means taking a step back and you build with an attitude first. So he goes - anywhere but on the ice - and then you keep removing the slackers and the primadonas for as long as it takes.

Nobody has thought you are too pessimistic. Well, a majority of people haven't anyway. People took issue with the delivery, not the pessimism. I think you've responded and are now delivering very interesting posts. 

 

But I still disagree with the fan one :lol:

 

As far as the pessimism goes, I think most of this board was quite reserved with regards to Housley and immediate impact, save for the typical opening day excitement. Sam being brought up as a bust or as trade proposals has happened for years, it didn't start with you. (My Sam proposal from the dog days of summer was Aho, Slavin for Reinhart, Risto, Nylander - I don't think that would get it done now haha) I don't think that Forums dot sabrespace dot com has anything to do with this team, and if it did, I don't think we are "too accepting" for changes to happen.

 

The Steelers' on field success has nothing, NOTHING, to do with their forums turning into an unreadable ###### hole after a loss. 

 

And an interesting take on Moulson, but I don't see how fan opinion has impacted their Moulson decision making. Fans hate that guy (on the ice). 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[SwampD]

I knew Montreal made a big mistake when they hired Julien. He is total old school and it's a new era. This was only a matter of time. 

 

I agree that JBot and Phil should get time, but I'm a little discouraged with some of Housley's we were so close type of rhetoric. I know he is trying to win over the locker room, but I'd like to see a little more of a this isn't acceptable any more kind of attitude.

 

A "revolt" is unrealistic, I know that, but complacency is even worse. If you tweak it it'll take a long time, if you make big moves you'll take a step back but then a leap forward. Not a tank, but a full reset.   

Um, aren't we in that step back right now?

[Pokey Jones]

Um, aren't we in that step back right now?

No, not until they unload bodies. We are in the accepting reality phase. The realization that the team Murray left us with is much worse than we thought it was. 

 

Randall Flagg, it's interesting you say my posts have changed, cause I'm not doing anything different. I think first, there is a little bit of getting used to a new voice, maybe a different style, a different way of writing maybe, style you aren't used to. There's a few older posters who have frequent sarcasm that you guys spot right away. Those took me a while and I probably still miss some. It's just familiarity. One cuts the people they know more slack.

The second is I think my view was less optimistic to start and now that we have lost a bunch of games the gap between us has narrowed.

 

In any event, we have a common interest. We all want this team to be better.  

[SwampD]

No, not until they unload bodies. We are in the accepting reality phase. The realization that the team Murray left us with is much worse than we thought it was. 

 

Randall Flagg, it's interesting you say my posts have changed, cause I'm not doing anything different. I think first, there is a little bit of getting used to a new voice, maybe a different style, a different way of writing maybe, style you aren't used to. There's a few older posters who have frequent sarcasm that you guys spot right away. Those took me a while and I probably still miss some. It's just familiarity. One cuts the people they know more slack.

The second is I think my view was less optimistic to start and now that we have lost a bunch of games the gap between us has narrowed.

 

In any event, we have a common interest. We all want this team to be better.  

Don't you get exhausted talking out of both sides of your mouth?

[Brawndo]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/how-the-buffalo-sabres-can-get-back-on-track-it-s-a-long-list

 

From Ryan Kennedy

[LTS]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/how-the-buffalo-sabres-can-get-back-on-track-it-s-a-long-list

 

From Ryan Kennedy

 

Do we trust a writer who actually proposes this as one of the fixes?

 

"Jaroslav Halak is a free agent this summer and he seems like the ideal veteran to help out at this point. Halak could give you 35 games and steal a few victories by himself along the way. Lehner is still The Guy, but there’s a failsafe if things go pear-shaped."

 

The Sabres have better odds of winning the Stanley Cup I would think.

[Pokey Jones]

Don't know why Murray ditched Neuvirth. That guy is still an underrated cheap back up who steals games now and again. We got nothing for him at the time and trading him away didn't really matter to the tank. Halak? I dunno, don't think he'd be cheap enough to make it make sense. 

[Scottysabres]

TRADES TRADES TRADES

 

3 Trades to help right the ship.

 

Kane (5.25) + Minnesota 4th rd 2018

For

Tanev (4.45 mil, 3 yrs)+ Vanek (2 mil, ufa)

Vancouver has reported interest in Kane.

Tanev, RD helps bolster a defense devoid of identity and depth. Vanek is short term scoring help until a couple of the kids come up next season. Also Van is near the cap, B7f absorbs 1.2 mil,

 

Reinhart (894k, rfa) + Moulson (5 mil, 2 yrs) + Fasching (925k, rfa, currently prospect in AHL)

For

Duchene (6 mil, 2 yrs) + Yakupov (875k, rfa)

Colorado gets a center to fall in behind McKinnon, Moulson moves to offset cap costs, 1 yr after this season and Colorado is moving to ELC heavy or 2nd contract after this year. Duchene needs to be moved, re-unites ROR and Duchene who had success together in Colorado. Also, the Avalanche depth in the pipeline is weak, Fasching offsets this even if just a bit.

Obviously Duchene bolsters a much needed finishing type sniper for Buffalo. Yak can slot as a "potential" sniper, send Griffith down. We can retain on Moulson if necessary since we'll have ELC's on the roster next season.

 

Shipachyov (4.50 mil, 2 yrs) + Neal (5 mil, ufa) + 2019 2nd rd pick

for

2018 1st rd pick (protected) slides to 2019 if lottery.

Shipachyov wants out of Vegas, he is a decent player and only 1 yr after this one. Neal is immediate Kane replacement with sniper skills.

 

Now obviously Vanek and Neal are short term this season help. However Neal only just turned 30 and could be re-signed for a 3 or 4 yr contract.

 

Duchene is in his prime.

 

Shipachyov is minimal risk.

 

Yakupov is a ? He still has wheels, can he fit on Jack's RW? Or on a 3rd scoring line RW? With Shipachyov centering?

 

Tanev imo would be a solid 3/4 RD opposite either McCabe or Antipin.

 

So, thoughts? Be brutal :)

[GASabresIUFAN]

I don't what deal can help this squad.  The lack of heart is frustrating.  This was a game they had to win and found a way to lose it.  Sad really.

 

That said something has to be done. I just don't know what.   

 

Maybe the following:

1) Send out Moulson, Griffith, Tennyson 

2) Bring up Baptiste

3) Start fielding offers for everyone except Jack

4) Find some players from winning organizations.

Edited October 29, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[nfreeman]

Keep your pants on. They are not going to make a bunch of trades, at least not until the deadline. They are playing much better and are very close to getting wins.

[Marvelo]

I'm starting to think that the Sabres plan is to lose, lose, lose until the whole damn team are all overall top 5 picks.