WTF is wrong with this team?

[Wyldnwoody44]

The bills are playing with nobodies (mainly)

 

And football and hockey are different

 

But the bills success is only making the Sabres look worse when looking at superstar or star talent

[Pokey Jones]

Jbot needs to get rid of the malcontents regardless of skill and salary.

100% yup. 

[nfreeman]

The job the bills have done is both shocking and amazing. They need their coaches to come in and light a fire under the Sabres. Like the Bills Jbot needs to get rid of the malcontents regardless of skill and salary.

 

Well, we have no way of knowing whether there are any malcontents/mail-it-in guys on the Sabres.  It was much more clear on the Bills with guys like Dareus.

 

The good news is that with both franchises, TP has decided to take the prudent route of hiring highly-regarded guys from strong organizations and letting them build the teams as they see fit. 

 

I think JBott and Howie are going to get the Sabres there, although it probably will take longer than it will take McD and BB with the Bills.  OTOH, the Bills didn't make the terrible decision to tank, which set the Sabres back years.

[LGR4GM]

Well, we have no way of knowing whether there are any malcontents/mail-it-in guys on the Sabres.  It was much more clear on the Bills with guys like Dareus.

 

The good news is that with both franchises, TP has decided to take the prudent route of hiring highly-regarded guys from strong organizations and letting them build the teams as they see fit. 

 

I think JBott and Howie are going to get the Sabres there, although it probably will take longer than it will take McD and BB with the Bills.  OTOH, the Bills didn't make the terrible decision to tank, which set the Sabres back years.

This is still ######. We are still better off with Jack Eichel on this team then if we had what? Dylan Strome, Pavel Zacha, Lawson Crouse?  You can say this until you are blue in the face. You can put it in every single post and it still will not be true. The Buffalo Sabres are better off post tank then they were pre tank. The problem you and others have is that you want the rebuild to be over this year and because of Bylsma and Murray it will take probably another season. If the Sabres don't tank they what? Draft somewhere between 7 and 14 for the last 3 years?  There isn't a player from 2015 who is good enough to not make the tank worth it. 2014 wasn't a good draft. That leaves 2016 in which we finished 8th. Nylander has had 1 year post draft and was injured to start this year.  So that gives us no indication. Mittelstadt was totally worth 8th overall. So tell me again how the tank wasn't worth it. You think this team would have improved in the last 4 years without out? By what, drafting Lucking into Nylander in 2014, taking Meier or Ratanen in 2015, and then taking Nylander again in 2016? 

 

Tanking was still the correct idea and when Asplund and Mittelstadt, and Nylander and Guhle, and Davidsson and Pu are all Sabres you will see the tank wasn't a waste because Jack Eichel will have a really strong team around him that knows the system and things will actually work. 

 

Or you can judge the rebuild on 2 years of Dan's loser system and 10 games of Housley trying to fix it. Your call. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by LGR4GM

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Nothing will convince me and some others that tanking was a good idea.

 

No matter what, like freeman said, the tank has set the Sabres back.

[LGR4GM]

Nothing will convince me and some others that tanking was a good idea.

 

No matter what, like freeman said, the tank has set the Sabres back.

No Murray and Bylsma set the Sabres back. The tank brought us Jack Eichel, the guy leading the team in points with the other tank profit Evander Kane. 

[nfreeman]

Yes.  The Sabres have Eichel -- who is an exciting player and, in his 3rd season, has yet to muscle the team into playoff bubble status, let alone contender status.

 

The point, as always, is not that they could've drafted better in the last 3 years.  The point is that they decided to tank instead of trying to rebuild, and that decision has put them into the wilderness for 6 years and counting.

 

The Sabres embarked on the tank in 2012-2013 -- two seasons after almost beating Philly in the 1st round, in their 2nd consecutive playoff appearance -- when they fired Lindy, hired Rolston, traded Pommer and Darcy announced that there would be suffering.  (They then drafted Risto in the first round.)

 

What they should've done instead was fire Darcy, let the new GM decide whether to keep Lindy, and under no circumstances decide to intentionally bottom out -- because as a factual matter, teams that go to the bottom usually stay there for extended periods -- which is exactly what has happened to the Sabres.

 

If your plan revolves around you winning a lottery -- you don't have a plan.

 

Separately:  assuming Mittlestadt is some kind of game-changing home run draft pick is of a piece with Roy-for-Malkin.

[LGR4GM]

Darren Haynes‏Verified account @DarrenWHaynes

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NHL: Five Worst Teams in Goals-per-Game: 27. Sabres, 2.42 28. Coyotes, 2.36 29. Flames, 2.25 30, Oilers, 2.20 31. Canadiens, 2.00

[7+6=13]

Yes.  The Sabres have Eichel -- who is an exciting player and, in his 3rd season, has yet to muscle the team into playoff bubble status, let alone contender status.

 

The point, as always, is not that they could've drafted better in the last 3 years.  The point is that they decided to tank instead of trying to rebuild, and that decision has put them into the wilderness for 6 years and counting.

 

The Sabres embarked on the tank in 2012-2013 -- two seasons after almost beating Philly in the 1st round, in their 2nd consecutive playoff appearance -- when they fired Lindy, hired Rolston, traded Pommer and Darcy announced that there would be suffering.  (They then drafted Risto in the first round.)

 

What they should've done instead was fire Darcy, let the new GM decide whether to keep Lindy, and under no circumstances decide to intentionally bottom out -- because as a factual matter, teams that go to the bottom usually stay there for extended periods -- which is exactly what has happened to the Sabres.

 

If your plan revolves around you winning a lottery -- you don't have a plan.

 

Separately:  assuming Mittlestadt is some kind of game-changing home run draft pick is of a piece with Roy-for-Malkin.

 

The tank sent us back to Egypt - because we were waiting for the waters to part without Aaron and Moses.  We went back to Egypt to get them and now we're in the wilderness with a shot at the promise land - something we had no shot at sitting on the bank of the red sea.  

[ubkev]

The tank sent us back to Egypt - because we were waiting for the waters to part without Aaron and Moses. We went back to Egypt to get them and now we're in the wilderness with a shot at the promise land - something we had no shot at sitting on the bank of the red sea.

So 37 more years of wandering, or are we farther along in this metaphor?

[nfreeman]

The tank sent us back to Egypt - because we were waiting for the waters to part without Aaron and Moses. We went back to Egypt to get them and now we're in the wilderness with a shot at the promise land - something we had no shot at sitting on the bank of the red sea.

Do you look at this team and see a shot at the promised land?

[7+6=13]

Do you look at this team and see a shot at the promised land?

 

Of course not -  just as you couldn't comprise a team built from the base of the 2012-2013 team, draft picks and available free agents since then. 

 

We're not in a good place - so I get where your coming from.  I just like our chances better than you do with Eichel, O'Reilly, hopefully Kane and our pipeline to have a chance at contending as a percentage vs what we had and building with that.

So 37 more years of wandering, or are we farther along in this metaphor?

 

I don't think we're further along now but I'd put a higher percentage of being able to go further than building from that team.  

 

It's hypothetical for sure and the tank to date has not been worth it from a results perspective (obviously).  If we're strictly talking contending and not better/playoff hockey to watch - then I'm still choosing the tank.

Edited October 30, 2017 by 7+6=13

[Doohicksie]

 

Darren Haynes‏Verified account @DarrenWHaynes

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NHL: Five Worst Teams in Goals-per-Game: 27. Sabres, 2.42 28. Coyotes, 2.36 29. Flames, 2.25 30, Oilers, 2.20 31. Canadiens, 2.00

 

 

Heh.  How 'bout them Eulers, eh?

[Randall Flagg]

 

Darren Haynes‏Verified account @DarrenWHaynes

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NHL: Five Worst Teams in Goals-per-Game: 27. Sabres, 2.42 28. Coyotes, 2.36 29. Flames, 2.25 30, Oilers, 2.20 31. Canadiens, 2.00

 

The only thing this tells me this early in the season is that we just played a Vezina winner, because we were in the top 11 literally 5 days ago

[GASabresIUFAN]

I have zero problem with the general decision to rebuild the team. I agree with Freeman that the rebuild should have started with canning Darcy and then letting the new person decide how to conduct the rebuild. Our managemen has been so bad, we have no idea if the “tank” would have worked sooner in someone else’s hands (not Darcy or TM).

 

That said there is enough here to build a playoff team over the next few years, but we are going to have to get lucky on some player development and hope the Jbot finds some value players that actually help the roster.

 

Jack is the start. He is only 21.

ROR is here and is an effective player for the next 3-5 years.

Risto is here, signed and a solid no 2.

Scandella is here, signed and a solid 2-3.

I also like Zemgus as part of the depth puzzle. We know he can produce when paired with the right players. He is fast and a hard worker.

McCabe is a solid D and is signed cheap.

I also like Pommers vet presence and he clearly has good hockey left in him.

 

Guys like Antipin and Sam still have most of the season to prove they are part of the puzzle long-term. Sam has had 4 pts in Oct in all three of his NHL seasons. Don’t write him off yet.

 

Now we need to hit on Asplund, Mittelstadt and Nylander to make a go of this rebuild. Each must make the team in 2018-19 or by 2019-20 at the latest. Hitting on Guhle would also be nice. It would also be helpful if someone like Pu, Baptiste or Olofson etc make an impact.

 

It becoming obvious that this is a transition year for this franchise and that Housley’s system isn’t a fit for most of players on this roster. 10 players were replaced (with positive results from 3 of them so far - Scandella, Pommers and Pouliot - I like what he has brought recently). 10 more changes are likely this next off-season.

 

I’ll draw an analogy to Kirby Smart at UGA. He went 8-5 last year, lost a bunch of close games and now just one season later, with 2 recruiting classes in place and his system firmly established UGA is 8-0 no.2 in the country and has pounded their SEC competition 212-52.

[Radar]

Yes.  The Sabres have Eichel -- who is an exciting player and, in his 3rd season, has yet to muscle the team into playoff bubble status, let alone contender status.

 

The point, as always, is not that they could've drafted better in the last 3 years.  The point is that they decided to tank instead of trying to rebuild, and that decision has put them into the wilderness for 6 years and counting.

 

The Sabres embarked on the tank in 2012-2013 -- two seasons after almost beating Philly in the 1st round, in their 2nd consecutive playoff appearance -- when they fired Lindy, hired Rolston, traded Pommer and Darcy announced that there would be suffering.  (They then drafted Risto in the first round.)

 

What they should've done instead was fire Darcy, let the new GM decide whether to keep Lindy, and under no circumstances decide to intentionally bottom out -- because as a factual matter, teams that go to the bottom usually stay there for extended periods -- which is exactly what has happened to the Sabres.

 

If your plan revolves around you winning a lottery -- you don't have a plan.

 

Separately:  assuming Mittlestadt is some kind of game-changing home run draft pick is of a piece with Roy-for-Malkin.

As much as I love Eichel and possibly McDavid I think tanking is a bad business plan. That's the route they took and we need to continue with what became a total rebuild.

[Pokey Jones]

But they didn't really give anything of long term value away in the so called tank. They got draft picks, and then they squandered and wasted them. The tank sets you up for a rebuild, but only if you use your picks wisely. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

But they didn't really give anything of long term value away in the so called tank. They got draft picks, and then they squandered and wasted them. The tank sets you up for a rebuild, but only if you use your picks wisely. 

Correct and that is why Timmy is history.  Blowing the 2015 draft with 7 picks entering the draft in the first 61, but only drafting 2 players is the major reason we are where we are.

 

Lets review -

Are we better off with Lehner or had we kept some like Neuvirth and the 1st rd pick?

Would we be better off with McNabb and 2 2nd rd picks or Delo and Fasching?  

Would we be better off with Kane and Bogo or with the picks and players used to acquire them?  

 

I think the answer is easy.  We would be better off long-term without making any of these deals.  

[LGR4GM]

One problem, Kane Bogo trade sealed the tank because Kane was injured. That trade I think we need to make. The rest though, I think you're right.

[dudacek]

Just for context, take a look at the 2014 and 2015 drafts.

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2015e.html

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2014e.htmlh

 

Murray gave up pick 60 in 2014 and picks 21, 25, 31 and 46 in 2015

Alex Lintuniemi, Colin White, Jack Roslovic, Jeremy Roy and Erik Cernak were selected with those picks.

 

He also traded Myers, McNabb, Lemieux, Armia, Compher, Grigorenko and Zadorov

In exchange he got O’Reilly, Kane, Bogosian, Kasdorf, McGinn, Legwand, Lehner, Deslauriers, and Fasching.

 

Also, damn, is the second round of 2014 ever looking like a wasteland.

Edited October 30, 2017 by dudacek

[Pokey Jones]

Are we better off with Lehner or had we kept some like Neuvirth and the 1st rd pick?

Would we be better off with McNabb and 2 2nd rd picks or Delo and Fasching?  

Would we be better off with Kane and Bogo or with the picks and players used to acquire them?  

 

Dumping Neuvirth was dumb. He was available, cheap and servicable. Better back up than Johnson. maybe even better than Lehner. We could have signed him the next year after dumping him too.

McNabb and 2 2nd rounders definitely a bad deal, although the way he drafted those 2nd rounders would have probably been no better than our duds.

Kane and Bogo is trickier. Myers probably needed a reset so I'm not sure you could keep him the way things had gone. They basically ruined his development. He has played decent hockey for Winnipeg though and D men with long reach are useful in this league now. Kane was a gamble but I understand it. In his mind this was a guy with huge upside and the ability to play with and protect McDavid (who he counted on getting) so I see the logic and won't fault that deal entirely. Expected more from Bogo obviously. Also Kane's injury made him perfect for the tank and the future at the same time. So a gamble, but a reasonable one, and if we trade Kane for decent assets this year it might still be a decent deal.

 

Not sure how you evaluate the lost picks entirely since you don't know who they would have drafted. Travis Konecny for example is a speedster with decent scoring touch that might have looked pretty darn good on Eichel's wing. White, Boeser, there are players in that area that might have improved us. 

 

The real key for me is the total failure to find anybody in later rounds. It seems to me every team has at least a few late round finds but us. i know they won't all be gems, but you have to find a few.

[Crusader1969]

The job the bills have done is both shocking and amazing. They need their coaches to come in and light a fire under the Sabres. Like the Bills Jbot needs to get rid of the malcontents regardless of skill and salary.

 

 

much more difficult with Guaranteed contracts to trade over-priced players but you are 100% spot on.

 

I'm hoping once some players get back from injury we will start seeing a purging of the roster.

Do you look at this team and see a shot at the promised land?

 

 

Did you look at this team prior to the tank and ever see a shot at the promised land? The Tank had to happen, it was the only was this team would ever become legit cup contenders year in and year out. Without it, you are just stuck in the middle.

Correct and that is why Timmy is history.  Blowing the 2015 draft with 7 picks entering the draft in the first 61, but only drafting 2 players is the major reason we are where we are.

 

Lets review -

Are we better off with Lehner or had we kept some like Neuvirth and the 1st rd pick?

Would we be better off with McNabb and 2 2nd rd picks or Delo and Fasching?  

Would we be better off with Kane and Bogo or with the picks and players used to acquire them?  

 

I think the answer is easy.  We would be better off long-term without making any of these deal

 

The only trade of those 3 that could have had an impact on Today's sabres is the Lehner for a 1st rounder.   

[North Buffalo]

I can onlybrepeat the above analysis as same as what I thought... In addition I think Murray tried to rush the rebuild, but was ill equipped to fully appreciate the assets he was giving away. His inexperienced showed and it didnt help him having Blysmal as a coach. JBOT appears much more methodical, he has a plan and is not worried this year but will bring in talent if and as cap room allows. Moulson Gorges and to an extent KO are drags on his ability to make deals. Replenishing talent and developing will be the key and again was hoping for more sooner but looks like its gonna be a while.

[nfreeman]

Did you look at this team prior to the tank and ever see a shot at the promised land? The Tank had to happen, it was the only was this team would ever become legit cup contenders year in and year out. Without it, you are just stuck in the middle.

 

I completely disagree.  Has Nashville ever tanked?  Minnesota?  San Jose?  Anaheim?  Boston?  The Rangers? 

 

And yet those teams are good pretty much every year.

 

Just because Pittsburgh caught lightning in a bottle doesn't mean everyone else either needs to duplicate that miracle or be consigned to mediocrity.

[Pokey Jones]

I completely disagree.  Has Nashville ever tanked?  Minnesota?  San Jose?  Anaheim?  Boston?  The Rangers? 

 

And yet those teams are good pretty much every year.

 

Nashville? perennial choke team boosted by having a great goalie until last year when they emerged due to the Subbhan deal and the emergence of their D as a whole - (a D coached by Housley).

Minnesota? Never gets over the hump. Boosted themselves with a big free agent double signing but a team in cap hell with no chance of winning it all.

San Jose? One of the biggest choke teams in the history of hockey. 

Anaheim? Big physical team that always competes but hard for them to win it all in this league now. led by Getzlaf, Perry and Kessler which is how different from Eichel, Kane and ROR?

Boston? We beat them :)  Total overhaul happening due to cap issues and a change in philosophy to fit the new style of the league. Yup, that's a well run organization. 

Rangers? Another great goalie but their time may be over. Not looking good this year at all.

 

L.A. is a team you might want to look at for success. Ottawa and Calgary are underdogs who have done some good quiet drafting. Tampa.

 

the thing about Pittsburgh is the league changed right at the right time for them. half a dozen or so years ago Kessel was deemed a floater, too soft, now he's a star again. He didn't change, the league did. LA and Boston smashed their way to cups and Crosby was mugged by Giroux. None of that holds any more.

 

I'm starting to ramble, sorry. It all comes down to how well you draft. We didn't. We suffer as a result. 

You know, thinking about it the other way, the futility teams, only Phoenix has arguably been as bad as us in terms of building and improving after a bad season. Edmonton, Winnipeg, others have had years of futility but I'd say we are definitely in the running for worst team in the league over the last decade.