2018 - 2019 Lineup

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

How many left handed defenders have we added in the last 6 months? 4 or something? 

We added Connor Sheary for nothing. Not a defender but a piece we needed. 

I was talking about roster additions to the defense.

56 minutes ago, LTS said:

I agree.  But I am looking at what was rumored or what has transpired and I am not sure there's as much out there as there might have been last year.  Making a trade means you have to find a defenseman who will still fit into your longer term plan.

Scandella fit the plan.  I'm not sure who else does that is available at the right price.  I think if we want to critique him for a lack of moves we have to look at what is rumored to be available or what has transpired to see if the Sabres could have made a play.  If there is no reasonable offer out there, it seems misplaced to lay blame at his feet.

I looked at the trades and signings.. there are a few potential signings that might have been possible and perhaps a trade.  I'm not sure those players are what they would be looking for though.
 

I think our perspectives on the value of rumors might explain our difference in take here, then ?

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

I was talking about roster additions to the defense.

I think our perspectives on the value of rumors might explain our difference in take here, then ?

I think yours and Jason Botterill’s perspectives on how much of an upgrade the additions of Matt Hunwick, Zach Bogosian, and Rasmus Dahlin are worth are also different, not to mention you are putting no stock in the maturation of Guhle and Nelson who were obviously slated for Rochester to start last year and looked better than last year’s bottom pairs to finish the year. With Pilut, that is a total of six potential starters this year who were not a significant part of last year’s defence core.

Edited July 20, 2018 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

57 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think yours and Jason Botterill’s perspectives on how much of an upgrade the additions of Matt Hunwick, Zach Bogosian, and Rasmus Dahlin are worth, not to mention you are putting no stock in the maturation of Guhle and Nelson who were obviously slated for Rochester to start last year and looked better than last year’s bottom six to finish the year. With Pilut, that is a total of six potential starters this year who were not a significant part of last year’s defence core.

If Botterill thinks Matt Hunwick was an upgrade addition we're f*cked. 

Guhle and Nelson are part of last years' group even if they didn't start here last year. Neither has shown to be a legitimate NHL defenseman yet, so as far as anyone on planet earth knows, there's no difference yet. 

My whole point is that NHL teams, on principle, have this exact same stuff happening to their rosters, every, single, offseason, and also make moves to make their team better on top of them. We are just sitting here, patting ourselves on the back without these steps having been taken. If it works out, great, and if it doesn't, it looks as monumentally stupid as every sh*t season we've had does.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[dudacek]

Do you think Hunwick is worse than Gorges, Falk, or Tennyson?

By the end of last season, do you think Guhle and Nelson were better than Gorges, Falk, or Tennyson?

 

You don’t have to like the moves we made, but you can’t pretend they didn’t happen.

We drafted Rasmus Dahlin, so if he improves the defence corps, it doesn’t count.

We developed Guhle and Nelson, so if they improve the defence corps, it doesn’t count.

I don’t like Bogosian or Hunwick, so if they improve the defence core, it doesn’t count.

 

[Derrico]

As I asked up thread, what signing or trade happened for a D that you wanted us in on?

[Randall Flagg]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Do you think Hunwick is worse than Gorges, Falk, or Tennyson?

By the end of last season, do you think Guhle and Nelson were better than Gorges, Falk, or Tennyson?

 

You don’t have to like the moves we made, but you can’t pretend they didn’t happen.

We drafted Rasmus Dahlin, so if he improves the defence corps, it doesn’t count.

We developed Guhle and Nelson, so if they improve the defence corps, it doesn’t count.

I don’t like Bogosian or Hunwick, so if they improve the defence core, it doesn’t count.

 

Hunwick is the same or worse as all of those. Those guys themselves, depending on role, have non-negligible differences anyway. He was a cap dump and presumably was taken to be such by Botterill. I am going to be disappointed in the offseason if Hunwick plays before 3 guys get hurt. 

Better at what? Gorges' role was better suited for him this past season, and as a result, at least based on the handful of games I watched for counting purposes, he played better than Guhle, who was truly dreadful at anything but skating the puck from his blue line to the other blue line. 

What moves are you talking about? The guys who were added to the team this offseason that project to play in the top 6 without injuries based on what the established defense group at the end of last season was, taking into account the in-season developments that you yourself outline drive roster changes, are as follows: 

Rasmus Dahlin. 

I don't know how else to word this. On no other teams do we count Bogosian being supposedly healthy (especially mother f*cking BOgosian) an offseason addition or roster move. On no other team is the young kid who played the last half of the season a roster addition and offseason move. Thomas Chabot is not an "offseason move" going into this coming season that Ottawa fans are "claiming didn't happen." Sebastian Aho full-time is not an offseason addition in the Islanders fans discussions. This stuff happens on every team, and when fans criticize their GMS for not making moves, this goes without saying, even though it apparently hasn't in this discussion. 

If you want me to start calling Zach Bogosian, Casey Nelson, Matt Hunwick's cap hit, and Brendan Guhle offseason additions in my criticisms which focus on Botterill's lack of doing enough to fix the defense then fine, I'll do it: In all of Botterill's offseason additions, including bulking up the back end by adding Zack Bogosian, Matt Hunwick, Brendan Guhle, Rasmus Dahlin, and Casey Nelson, I am not satisified with what he has done, I hope he has another move up his sleeve, I wish he had done more, and if the group doesn't perform better, it's completely on his shoulders and he gets another checkmark in a growing negative column.

Have I nuanced this enough? 

[Randall Flagg]

19 minutes ago, Derrico said:

As I asked up thread, what signing or trade happened for a D that you wanted us in on?

I would have given Pateryn a million more than he got. I would have been in on a couple other FA names I don't remember. 

But that's not the point. There was not a single rumor about us "being in on" Scandella until the trade was posted by the blue checkmarks. 

It is not hockey code that there need to have been whispers and rumors for months for the move, trade, addition to have any possibility of happening. I don't get this take at all. 

[Randall Flagg]

The bizarre "what else was there to be done? They've done everything they could, have you heard the rumor mill?" attitude here is new both the posters expressing it and this place in general, and has to be a reaction to the negativity that the reality of our team being awful and our attempts to address it being controversial, or arguable in quantity, has drummed up. I've never seen outlooks like it among fans in a world where players and teams move across the country and all over the standings on a year-to-year basis, except our Sabres, who have finished last 3 of the past 5 years and comprise the only last place teams of the last 5 to not make the playoffs the year after they finish last, which is going to be a triple-crown performance this season. 

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[GASabresIUFAN]

Hunwick is an improvement on Tennyson, Falk and Gorges.  He is actually an NHL player.  

Jbot is also finally doing what I had hoped TM would have done and he is going to let the kids/prospects play.  At some point you have to stop bringing in players from other organizations and play with what you have drafted and developed.  

Last year's most common D lineup was Risto, Marco, Baloo, McCabe, Antipin and Falk.  2 of those guys are already gone and Baloo, unless he figures it out, is relegated to the 7/8 slots.

Dahlin and Pilut are new,.Guhle and especially Nelson earned PT over Baloo and Antipin late in the year.  Add Hunwick and the D will look substantially different then last year with Bogo or without.  

[Randall Flagg]

And maybe Hunwick is better than Falk and Sobotka is better than Nolan, but it is nothing short of bizarre that players who have literal months and months of fans on their message boards begging their team to dump these guys, that it becomes the minority extreme view when literally only two of us (True and I) aren't fawning over how great our depth looks with them added. I respect Weave and his takes to death, but that I get comments about "imagine when he's weave's age" for talking about these dumpster fire contracts on last-leg NHLers to fans who universally were sick of guys like Matt Ellis and tank fodder in general a few years ago doesn't make any goddamn sense. This is the same place that Lindy goddamn Ruff wasn't good enough for because of not enough playoff series wins. I just don't get it. 

[Randall Flagg]

I mean even when the Sheary trade happened it was understood that Hunwick was a cap dump which let us get a guy with more ES goals than any Sabre but Eichel over the last two years for a 4th round pick, and now he's a shrewd addition that will make us better? I GET that maybe he performs better than Gorges, but this possibility being the default take blows my mind! 

I'm done ranting now. I should also probably leave this thread alone because I get the sense the negativity bothers people. 

[Randall Flagg]

This tweet from The Charging Buffalo happened as soon as the trade came through, and was posted here. It was without any Sabre-bias, based on everything we knew about the guy from watching him, from Pens fans, from his situation, and from our situation, and from the context of the trade: 

"Guys,

Matt Hunwick isn’t actually gonna play for the Sabres. 7th D, tops. Maybe even a buyout."

Everyone would have agreed with this at the time. I guess this qualifier is always needed now, but this is not a guarantee that he can't surprise and play decent for us, and no take I will ever post has that guarantee. But we've learned nothing new about Hunwick, haven't seen him play a lick of hockey, and have completely shifted our view of his role on the roster based on posters being grumpy with our defense.

[dudacek]

@Randall Flagg 

I don’t like what Botterill did with the D core. Fair point. I wish Botterill had added another veteran(s) to the D core. Fair point. But saying Botterill did not change up the D core is deliberately obtuse.

Dahlin, Pilut and Hunwick did not play a game for the Sabres last year. Bogosian and Guhle eached played less than 20 games. Two of those guys will likely play in the top four this year. At least one of the other three should be on the roster to start the season. Falk, Gorges and Antipin were in our top six last year in games played. They are gone.

You might not be impressed by it, but that is change.

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

@Randall Flagg 

I don’t like what Botterill did with the D core. Fair point. I wish Botterill had added another veteran(s) to the D core. Fair point. But saying Botterill did not change up the D core is deliberately obtuse.

Dahlin, Pilut and Hunwick did not play a game for the Sabres last year. Bogosian and Guhle eached played less than 20 games. Two of those guys will likely play in the top four this year. At least one of the other three should be on the roster to start the season. Falk, Gorges and Antipin were in our top six last year in games played. They are gone.

You might not be impressed by it, but that is change.

Hunwick is not a d-corps change. He is a bad contract being taken on. I'm reading, rightnow, on two forums and twitter posts from every Sabre pundit there is, the idea that Hunwick is garbage and was taken to sweeten Sheary and can be buried in Rochester, sat, or bought out. It is not obtuse to not count this as making a defensive change. It is emphatically not obtuse that I AM THE ONE NOT CHANGING COURSE in the thought process of adding Hunwick just based on time passing. I'm saying the same thing everyone and I said all along, but now that's wrong and bad and dumb. 

Pilut, according to their own words, and everything I've seen speculated, won't even be playing here to start the year. I hope he does, but this is not the "change" I'm talking about when I'm talking about "we need to make roster CHANGES to the defense on the worst team in the league, moreseo than just drafting Dahlin" which is a sentiment I have not wavered on and had universal support two months ago. 

If my outlining of the Bogosian and Guhle situation did nothing to change your take on what I mean by it, then I give up because I cannot express myself well enough. I do not command my words well enough to articulate any better than I did. 

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[Randall Flagg]

I hope our sparkling, shiny, brand new, changed defense corps of 
Scandella Risto
Dahlin Boglsian
McCabe Beaulieu
Nelson 

And then, after BOgosian's second period injury,
Scandella Risto
Dahlin McCabe
Beaulieu Nelson 

is everything we hoped for, as a stunning difference in the make up of our defense group last year, and looks nothing like what we saw playing last year on balance, as you can clearly see how different and changed it is with all of Botterill's shrewd and nuanced additions

And yayyy Guhle who also played last year so different whoop 30th place here we come

Edited July 20, 2018 by Randall Flagg

[dudacek]

42 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

This tweet from The Charging Buffalo happened as soon as the trade came through, and was posted here. It was without any Sabre-bias, based on everything we knew about the guy from watching him, from Pens fans, from his situation, and from our situation, and from the context of the trade: 

"Guys,

Matt Hunwick isn’t actually gonna play for the Sabres. 7th D, tops. Maybe even a buyout."

Everyone would have agreed with this at the time. I guess this qualifier is always needed now, but this is not a guarantee that he can't surprise and play decent for us, and no take I will ever post has that guarantee. But we've learned nothing new about Hunwick, haven't seen him play a lick of hockey, and have completely shifted our view of his role on the roster based on posters being grumpy with our defense.

For the record, I hope Hunwick never plays a game with the Sabres.

I expect he and/or Beaulieau sits in the press box as the emergency fill while better players develop in Rochester.

I expect Scandella and Risto to play like Scandella and Risto

I expect Bogosian and Dahlin to be a noticeable improvement over Falk and Beaulieu

I expect McCabe and Nelson to be better than McCabe and Antipin

I expect Guhle and Pilut to be better call-ups than Tennyson and Redmond.

That is why I think the defence has been improved.

Edited July 20, 2018 by dudacek

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

I hope our sparkling, shiny, brand new, changed defense corps of 
Scandella Risto
Dahlin Boglsian
McCabe Beaulieu
Nelson 

And then, after BOgosian's second period injury,
Scandella Risto
Dahlin McCabe
Beaulieu Nelson 

is everything we hoped for, as a stunning difference in the make up of our defense group last year, and looks nothing like what we saw playing last year on balance, as you can clearly see how different and changed it is with all of Botterill's shrewd and nuanced additions

And yayyy Guhle who also played last year so different whoop 30th place here we come

 

Are you OK man? ?

[Taro T]

20 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I hope our sparkling, shiny, brand new, changed defense corps of 
Scandella Risto
Dahlin Boglsian
McCabe Beaulieu
Nelson 

And then, after BOgosian's second period injury,
Scandella Risto
Dahlin McCabe
Beaulieu Nelson 

is everything we hoped for, as a stunning difference in the make up of our defense group last year, and looks nothing like what we saw playing last year on balance, as you can clearly see how different and changed it is with all of Botterill's shrewd and nuanced additions

And yayyy Guhle who also played last year so different whoop 30th place here we come

The D IS improved.

Is it improved enough to make up for the forward muddle to get this team much above 84 points.  Almost definitely not.

[Weave]

Randall is my new love.

Not surprisingly, I agree with his take.  Counting Bogo and Guhle as changes is...... weird.  Sure, if they are in the lineup it is 2 bodies different than 85% of last season, but they aren’t changes in the sense that JBot had to actively do something to make the change.  And in a real sense you can say the same about Dahlin.  It’s not like any other choice was going to be made there.

Having said that, I’m not gonna pound on JBott until I see what all this looks like on the ice.  My gut tells me unless Dahlin is a hero out of the gate, its gonna be ugly again.

[dudacek]

Semantics I suppose. They aren’t new faces, but they are players who barely played last year. Maybe changes isn’t the right word, maybe it’s reasons to think we might be better.

In football, you read things like “the Bills expect to be much-improved at LB with the return of Sam Cowart who missed virtually all of last season...” and “big changes at QB where Aaron Rodgers takes over under centre after three years of packing a clipboard...”

Not sure why Bogosian and Guhle don’t parallel those scenarios.

[Weave]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Semantics I suppose. They aren’t new faces, but they are players who barely played last year. Maybe changes isn’t the right word, maybe it’s reasons to think we might be better.

In football, you read things like “the Bills expect to be much-improved at LB with the return of Sam Cowart who missed virtually all of last season...” and “big changes at QB where Aaron Rodgers takes over under centre after three years of packing a clipboard...”

Not sure why Bogosian and Guhle don’t parallel those scenarios.

We also didn’t accept that logic when Darcy famously used it to describe Tim Connolly coming back from injury as changes to the team.  We mocked him for it as I recall.

[dudacek]

To some of Randall’s other points my perception of the board’s tone is different than his. 

I havent noticed anyone talking about a shrewd and nuanced summer from Botterill.

I haven’t noticed anyone expecting more from Hunwick than potentially being a better 7 than Gorges or Falk.

I haven’t seen anyone raving about the team’s great depth - improved sure, great no.

I think people think Sheary, Berglund and Sobotka are going to be better than the people they replace but hardly lifesavers.

And I think people generally miss ROR and don’t think we got enough in the trade.

 

Personally, I’m with Weave, I’m not going to pound on JBot until I see what happens on the ice. Changes had to be made he’s made a bunch in my view.

I am including the development of the kids in the equation because that’s been a major plank in his calculation and his plan since he took over.

We’ll see what happens.

Edited July 20, 2018 by dudacek

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

I think yours and Jason Botterill’s perspectives on how much of an upgrade the additions of Matt Hunwick, Zach Bogosian, and Rasmus Dahlin are worth are also different, not to mention you are putting no stock in the maturation of Guhle and Nelson who were obviously slated for Rochester to start last year and looked better than last year’s bottom pairs to finish the year. With Pilut, that is a total of six potential starters this year who were not a significant part of last year’s defence core.

The fact that Zach Bogosian is being counted on as an addition pretty much sums up my issue with Botterill's approach to the D this offseason.

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Semantics I suppose. They aren’t new faces, but they are players who barely played last year. Maybe changes isn’t the right word, maybe it’s reasons to think we might be better.

In football, you read things like “the Bills expect to be much-improved at LB with the return of Sam Cowart who missed virtually all of last season...” and “big changes at QB where Aaron Rodgers takes over under centre after three years of packing a clipboard...”

Not sure why Bogosian and Guhle don’t parallel those scenarios.

He's not going to play! If by some miracle he plays a full season, it should be seen as found money. To actively plan for it would seem to be madness given past result. 

3 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

And maybe Hunwick is better than Falk and Sobotka is better than Nolan, but it is nothing short of bizarre that players who have literal months and months of fans on their message boards begging their team to dump these guys, that it becomes the minority extreme view when literally only two of us (True and I) aren't fawning over how great our depth looks with them added. I respect Weave and his takes to death, but that I get comments about "imagine when he's weave's age" for talking about these dumpster fire contracts on last-leg NHLers to fans who universally were sick of guys like Matt Ellis and tank fodder in general a few years ago doesn't make any goddamn sense. This is the same place that Lindy goddamn Ruff wasn't good enough for because of not enough playoff series wins. I just don't get it. 

*Raises hand*

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I think people think Sheary, Berglund and Sobotka are going to be better than the people they replace but hardly lifesavers.

I hesitate to lump Sheary in with those other 2, as I think he's going to be a significant improvement in the top 6. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Thorny

[Derrico]

4 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I would have given Pateryn a million more than he got. I would have been in on a couple other FA names I don't remember. 

But that's not the point. There was not a single rumor about us "being in on" Scandella until the trade was posted by the blue checkmarks. 

It is not hockey code that there need to have been whispers and rumors for months for the move, trade, addition to have any possibility of happening. I don't get this take at all. 

I really don't understand your take?  Your making out as if this is on botts that another team wasn't willing to give up another top 4 d for almost nothing.  Top 4 D dont grow on trees.  I would have loved to have got one.  Toronto would have too.  Edmonton too.  Chicago too......there are atleast 25 other teams in the league that need another one but they also weren't able to.  Is that on the other 25 gms as well??

[Derrico]

4 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

The bizarre "what else was there to be done? They've done everything they could, have you heard the rumor mill?" attitude here is new both the posters expressing it and this place in general, and has to be a reaction to the negativity that the reality of our team being awful and our attempts to address it being controversial, or arguable in quantity, has drummed up. I've never seen outlooks like it among fans in a world where players and teams move across the country and all over the standings on a year-to-year basis, except our Sabres, who have finished last 3 of the past 5 years and comprise the only last place teams of the last 5 to not make the playoffs the year after they finish last, which is going to be a triple-crown performance this season. 

 

For the record, never once did I bring up anything to do with the rumor mill.  I agree with your points on what the rumor mill actually is, click bait.  That's why I've always asked an actual signing or trade because everything else is just noise.