Josh Gorges -- A Keeper?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Flagg, We can argue again once JB hires Tocchet.

Randall,

 

Why can't Gorges be all those things you pointed out, in the last paragraph of your post above, with a new coach and new system that would utilise him properly?

Lack of foot speed. Edited May 10, 2017 by GASabresFan

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Lack of foot speed.

 

Spare with that stuff.  Down through the ages most of the best D in the league couldn't skate very well.  Many of them Sabres.  They can't all be named 'wow wee'.

 

EDIT:  DAMN PHONE!!

Edited May 10, 2017 by Sabres Fan In NS

[Randall Flagg]

Randall,

 

Why can't Gorges be all those things you pointed out, in the last paragraph of your post above, with a new coach and new system that would utilise him properly?

Easing in puck support and preference for maintaining possession isn't going to help a player that can't make accurate passes to the correct players, or skate the puck the way the system needs it to be skated. He just has no hockey skills, they've all eroded at this point. 

[TrueBlueGED]

Lukewarm take alert: If Josh Gorges is skating a regular shift with this team next season, then the team isn't serious about making the playoffs, let alone doing anything once there.

[Randall Flagg]

Lukewarm take alert: If Josh Gorges is skating a regular shift with this team next season, then the team isn't serious about making the playoffs, let alone doing anything once there.

I'm almost alarmed by the support he's getting here. NS is the only one I recall defending him during the actual season, but there are several pro-Gorges takes in here. Opinion on his play used to seem the closest-to-consensus an opinion can be on a  message board

 

Maybe we're the ones who are going crazy  :unsure:

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I'm almost alarmed by the support he's getting here. NS is the only one I recall defending him during the actual season, but there are several pro-Gorges takes in here. Opinion on his play used to seem the closest-to-consensus an opinion can be on a  message board

 

Maybe we're the ones who are going crazy  :unsure:

 

I just went back through and I'm not saying you're wrong, but you are not right either ...  ;)

 

JJ and BS (sorry, Bob) were on the Gorges train all season, IIRC.  Physics wasn't around a lot during the season, at least from what I remember (at least on this point) and Radar has always been saying what he has in this thread ... not big support, but not throwing him under the bus either.

 

Seems like everybody else wants to run him out of town, or worse.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Spare with that stuff.  Down through the ages most of the best D in the league couldn't skate very well.  Many of them Sabres.  They can't all be named 'wow wee'.

 

EDIT:  DAMN PHONE!!

However, in today's NHL footspeed is a necessity. What a D looked like in 1945, 1980 or 1995 isn't relevant to what the job description is today.

[Weave]

I just went back through and I'm not saying you're wrong, but you are not right either ...  ;)

 

JJ and BS (sorry, Bob) were on the Gorges train all season, IIRC.  Physics wasn't around a lot during the season, at least from what I remember (at least on this point) and Radar has always been saying what he has in this thread ... not big support, but not throwing him under the bus either.

 

Seems like everybody else wants to run him out of town, or worse.

 

It all comes down to, is he effective enough to be one of the top 7 based on performance?  In a new system I'd like to see the preseason before making judgement.

[LGR4GM]

Why waste a roster spot on a player who isn't good enough to play in the NHL or waste a roster spot in the AHL on a player you won't recall or on who isn't a prospect. We need to clean these kind of players out of the organization.

Why waste cap space in a year you'll need it more?

 

We won't be at max contracts anyways so keeping him doesn't matter. Bench him, send him rochester, trade him. Either way it's better then wasting cap space next year when we may need it.

[Randall Flagg]

I just went back through and I'm not saying you're wrong, but you are not right either ...  ;)

 

JJ and BS (sorry, Bob) were on the Gorges train all season, IIRC.  Physics wasn't around a lot during the season, at least from what I remember (at least on this point) and Radar has always been saying what he has in this thread ... not big support, but not throwing him under the bus either.

 

Seems like everybody else wants to run him out of town, or worse.

Through all of this, I want to emphasize that I do really like Josh the guy and thank him for putting up with the trash he did, particularly in his first year here. That season probably took years off of his career, which sucks.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Shadow,

If you bench him you get his full cap this year and waste a roster spot on a player you aren't going to play. That doesn't make any sense, especially if can use that roster spot on a vet like Quincey or Hainsey or Daley that might actually play and help the team win.

 

If you waive him and send him down you save the cap this year when it doesn't matter, but waste 3.9 mill dollars unnecessarily as well wasting an AHL roster spot that could go to a legit prospect or a player like Fedun or Falk with a small cap hit who you might recall if needed.

 

I don't believe that there is a trade market for him, but if you can find someone to take him. Great!

 

That leaves one option and that is the buyout. As I illustrated above, a 1.3 mill cap hit won't stop us from re-signing any important player. We also have a rebate from CoHo that further lessens the impact.

Edited May 10, 2017 by GASabresFan

[Weave]

We can have 50 contracts.  There is room.

 

We didn't even use all 50 last season.

Edited May 10, 2017 by We've

[GASabresIUFAN]

We can have 50 contracts. There is room.

 

We didn't even use all 50 last season.

An NHL team has a roster limit of 23 players. An AHL team can only dress 18 skaters of which 13 must be developmental players. If you keep Gorges and send him down, he would absorb one of the 5 vet slots. I guess you can send him down and not play him, but that would be a awful thing to do to a classy vet who plays hard every shift, despite the erosion of his skills.

 

How about sending him down, playing him occassionally, but make him a player asst coach?

Edited May 10, 2017 by GASabresFan

[Thorner]

Lukewarm take alert: If Josh Gorges is skating a regular shift with this team next season, then the team isn't serious about making the playoffs, let alone doing anything once there.

Yup, this. We need to improve the defence! Not rely on an already inadequate JG who will be sure as shite be taking another step back next season, due to age.

 

The largest role I can even attempt to be ok with Gorges playing next season is that of a seventh D man who almost never plays. A guy who we we can pretend to believe is making a difference when we mix up causation and correlation and he comes in (and does nothing) as a "spark" in the second round next season when we squeak into the conference finals due to a poor division.

[TrueBlueGED]

Shadow,

If you bench him you get his full cap this year and waste a roster spot on a player you aren't going to play. That doesn't make any sense, especially if can use that roster spot on a vet like Quincey or Hainsey or Daley that might actually play and help the team win.

 

If you waive him and send him down you save the cap this year when it doesn't matter, but waste 3.9 mill dollars unnecessarily as well wasting an AHL roster spot that could go to a legit prospect or a player like Fedun or Falk with a small cap hit who you might recall if needed.

 

I don't believe that there is a trade market for him, but if you can find someone to take him. Great!

 

That leaves one option and that is the buyout. As I illustrated above, a 1.3 mill cap hit won't stop us from re-signing any important player. We also have a rebate from CoHo that further lessens the impact.

Gorges would cost only $3M to bury in the AHL, so a buyout only saves $1.7M. Do you really think we're going to desperately need that this season? I wouldn't mind having it, but we're not in such bad cap shape that it'll be prohibitive to carry.

 

Plus, we can always hope he'd rather retire than spend a year in the A :)

[LGR4GM]

Shadow,

If you bench him you get his full cap this year and waste a roster spot on a player you aren't going to play. That doesn't make any sense, especially if can use that roster spot on a vet like Quincey or Hainsey or Daley that might actually play and help the team win.

 

If you waive him and send him down you save the cap this year when it doesn't matter, but waste 3.9 mill dollars unnecessarily as well wasting an AHL roster spot that could go to a legit prospect or a player like Fedun or Falk with a small cap hit who you might recall if needed.

 

I don't believe that there is a trade market for him, but if you can find someone to take him. Great!

 

That leaves one option and that is the buyout. As I illustrated above, a 1.3 mill cap hit won't stop us from re-signing any important player. We also have a rebate from CoHo that further lessens the impact.

You should explain it to me again like I don't ###### understand because that will certainly change my opinion.

 

I don't want to waste the 1.3million on him next season. I would rather he play out his final year and go. You want to buyout him because you are worried about contract limits and the 23 man roster. Risto, McCabe, Antipin maybe, Guhle maybe, Bogosian. That's 5 defenders. You bring one of those guys you mentioned, that's 6. Injuries are bound to happen, Gorges gives you 7 and Fedun 8. Perfect number of guys. And then I don't have to worry about havin 1.3million less in cap space next year. I love how everyone assumes the cap will go up, it isn't going up this year is it? Aren't the players bitching about escrow because the cap has been artificially inflated? Next year Reinhart, Eichel, Carrier, and Kane all need new deals. I would rather save that 1.3 million. 

 

So, stop being like "I find it laughable that people are worried about Gorges 1.3 mill cap hit for 2 season if we buy him out", it isn't laughable we just don't agree with you. Also stop mansplaining to me your point, I got it the first 50 times you explained it and I still don't agree. Let him play, be done with him, move on. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by LGR4GM

[Randall Flagg]

You should explain it to me again like I don't ###### understand because that will certainly change my opinion.

 

I don't want to waste the 1.3million on him next season. I would rather he play out his final year and go. You want to buyout him because you are worried about contract limits and the 23 man roster. Risto, McCabe, Antipin maybe, Guhle maybe, Bogosian. That's 5 defenders. You bring one of those guys you mentioned, that's 6. Injuries are bound to happen, Gorges gives you 7 and Fedun 8. Perfect number of guys. And then I don't have to worry about havin 1.3million less in cap space next year. I love how everyone assumes the cap will go up, it isn't going up this year is it? Aren't the players bitching about escrow because the cap has been artificially inflated? Next year Reinhart, Eichel, Carrier, and Kane all need new deals. I would rather save that 1.3 million. 

 

So, stop being like "I find it laughable that people are worried about Gorges 1.3 mill cap hit for 2 season if we buy him out", it isn't laughable we just don't agree with you. Also stop mansplaining to me your point, I ###### got it the first 50 times you explained it and I still don't agree. Let him play, be done with him, move on. 

(trades an F for a D, signs a Kris Russell type, and whammo 8 D better than Josh)

[LGR4GM]

(trades an F for a D, signs a Kris Russell type, and whammo 8 D better than Josh)

And Antipin has to sign an Guhle has to make the team AND we have to make that trade. I'm not buying out Gorges anytime soon. And Bogosian has to survive the expansion draft AND not get injured in preseason. 

[TrueBlueGED]

(trades an F for a D, signs a Kris Russell type, and whammo 8 D better than Josh)

Seriously, this isn't hard. Just skim AHL top pairs and you'll probably find a perfectly acceptable journeyman replacement for league minimum.

[Randall Flagg]

And Antipin has to sign an Guhle has to make the team AND we have to make that trade. I'm not buying out Gorges anytime soon. And Bogosian has to survive the expansion draft AND not get injured in preseason. 

Oh I'm not getting into the debate of what specifically to do with Josh. My only concern is seeing him nowhere near the top six even in the case of injuries.

[Taro T]

Oh I'm not getting into the debate of what specifically to do with Josh. My only concern is seeing him nowhere near the top six even in the case of injuries.

If he's one of the top 9 or 10, let 7, 8, & 9 play inRa-cha-cha & let Gorges be the designated press box D-man. If someone gets hurt or injured on the day of a game & logistics don't let them get an Amerk on the ice by puck drop, so be it, he plays A game & somebody is brought up by the next one.

 

Pegula doesn't seem to be worried about dropping a random $MM here or there, & the cap shouldn't be an issue this season, so no harm in having him as #7. If he can't make top 10, then we can worry about that bridge when we have to cross it.

[dudacek]

If we add better players into the roles played by Kulikov, Franson and Gorges last year, is Gorges and or his salary really going to keep us out of the playoffs in a Falk/ Fedun slot?

 

For sake of argument (ranked by ice time)

 

Ristolainen -> Ristolainen

Kulikov -> Tanev

McCabe -> McCabe

Bogosian -> Bogosian

Franson -> Antipin

Gorges -> Daley

Fedun -> Guhle

Falk -> Gorges

Nelson -> Falk

Edited May 11, 2017 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

If we add better players into the roles played by Kulikov, Franson and Gorges last year, is Gorges and or his salary really going to keep us out of the playoffs in a Falk/ Fedun slot?

 

For sake of argument (ranked by ice time)

 

Ristolainen -> Ristolainen

Kulikov -> Tanev

McCabe -> McCabe

Bogosian -> Bogosian

Franson -> Antipin

Gorges -> Daley

Fedun -> Guhle

Falk -> Gorges

Nelson -> Falk

 

Why Tanev?  I'd much rather have the young and more offensively gifted Vatanen for around the same money or the even younger and cheaper Brodin. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by GASabresFan

[dudacek]

Why Tanev? I'd much rather have the young and more offensively gifted Vatanen for around the same money or the even younger and cheaper Brodin.

 

He's a placeholder.

Feel free to insert any smart, defensively sound, non-elite defenceman you want.

This was about a lineup where Gorges might make sense.

 

 

That said, this team needs a Tanev more than a Vatanen, especially if we acquire Antipin and start using a Bogosian properly.

Edited May 11, 2017 by dudacek

[TrueBlueGED]

Tanev probably also comes cheaper than other similar alternatives. I like his game quite a bit, but those injuries...