Reinhart Dressed and Benched; Late to Meeting

[woods-racer]

Sooooo are we all over this now

 

Would have been if there was a game already.

[Randall Flagg]

They were making ###### happen on a Philly team with high expectations that took a nose dive once they were gone.  Winners can get away with it.  But you have to prove yourself a winner first.  And even then.... Richards is out of the league for being a jackwagon AND a winner.  You'd better be winning at the highest level to get away with it.  If you haven't won anything, be on time at the very least.

I bet they missed a meeting by 5 minutes at some point before they won. What were Johnny Hockey and Monahan benched for earlier this year, before their run into a playoff spot? They're in the dance now.

 

It's an incredibly minor thing that will have no bearing on this team's short-term play or long-term success. It just won't. 

[GoPre]

Exactly. Which makes the benching pointless. Has far more drawback than gain. Only gain is the hopeful quickening of Bylsma getting the can.

[bunomatic]

Exactly. Which makes the benching pointless. Has far more drawback than gain. Only gain is the hopeful quickening of Bylsma getting the can.

:thumbsup:

[pi2000]

It's an incredibly minor thing that will have no bearing on this team's short-term play or long-term success. It just won't.

It will, it's part of the maturation process.

Exactly. Which makes the benching pointless. Has far more drawback than gain. Only gain is the hopeful quickening of Bylsma getting the can.

Wasn't Bylsma's rule.

[LTS]

I was going to let your post go until your last couple of sentences.

 

You are misrepresenting my views, if the rule is a game suspension, so be it.  I wouldn't make it that severe if I was HC/GM, but, it is what it is.

 

My issue, is applying discretion and flexibility and use some common sense and judgment and delay punishment until Sunday when you can dress/skate 18 and have Reinhart sit in press box.

 

Not sure why you can't respond to that specific argument instead of making up a different one.

 

I've responded to it.  Teams suffer injuries in a game, sometimes almost right away, that cause them to play with 17 skaters or 16 skaters.  Just because one of them is suspended doesn't change the reality of the number of skaters.  Let's say in the next game Sam Reinhart goes out on his first shift and 8 seconds in checks a guy from behind and gets ejected.  Would you blame the league for putting the Sabres down a man for the game or would you blame Sam Reinhart for being careless?  What's the difference of missing all but 8 seconds of a game and all of the game?  The player is responsible for their action and no one else.

 

 

Its goona be long off season as nfreeman declared... oof. So I guess we have two camps here.

 

1 Reinhardt is a witch because he floats like a duck and should be burned.

 

2 Reinhardt is a poor smuck who screwed up and just needs a St Marks nun to break a ruler over his wrists and be told God loves you

 

 

I don't think this represents either argument that's being made.

 

I disagree w/ that. Delaying the punishment would make the entire episode arbitrary &/or capricious.

 

I'd rather see them tell the team that BECAUSE of the Okposo illness & the league rule for 18 skaters dressing that Reinhart's suspension would be reduced to 1 period.

 

Yes, I get that that would be causing Murray &/or Bylsma to not follow through on what they'd said they would do. In this case that would be warranted.

 

On a certain level, I am impressed that they stuck to their word. Speaking as a coach & a dad, that isn't always easy to do but it is necessary.

 

On a deeper level, it is troubling that they came up with a consequence (sitting on the bench the whole game) for an action they wished to see their players avoid (showing up late to practice) that ended up appearing to be at least an order of magnitude worse than the infraction a mere 24 hours after introducing the consequence.

 

My own personal rule: pick a consequence that is proportional to the severity of the behavior/action that is trying to be "coached away from," NEVER propose a consequence for an action/behavior that I am not prepared to enforce & enforce the consequence if the action/behavior occurs.

 

So, basically it's good they stuck to their word, but it's bad that they appear to have put little thought into what they said.

 

As I said before, since it is not uncommon for teams to skate with 17 players in a game it's not that big of a deal.  The sitting on the bench part is an interesting twist on the situation and is probably what has people the most upset.  However, some of Sam's comments made it sound like he wanted to support his team and I've also heard comments that they decided it was best if he was there.  I still don't know what the truth is but I don't care about that relative to making excuses to shorten or move the penalty. The penalty cannot exist without the action of the player.

 

O.K. i'll say it again. I said it upthread and nobody ( not you nobody ) thought it worthy of an answer.

Its game 7 of the finals against Calgary 2019. Morning yoga Eichel ( our star and front runner for the Conn Smythe ) sleeps in and is 15 minutes late. Because GMTM and double D thought it wise to etch the rules in stone ( black and white ) instead of leaving wiggle room ( grey ) they have no choice but to sit our star ( Eichel ) for the game. They've painted themselves into a corner. What say you ? Its their rule not mine I'm just offering an example of where this can go off the rails for the hardasses like ahem, ( sorry guys ) LTS and Pi . Thoughts ?

 

I would suspend him.  Without any second guessing myself.  You either can hold people accountable for their actions or not.  In this case, Eichel sleeps late. There is no secondary variable. The player was irresponsible.  He now has to sit in a room with an entire team he's spent the season with and try to explain why he could not be responsible enough to get up on time.  He has to explain why he is lessening their chances of winning the Stanley Cup, a goal they've all dreamed about since being kids, because he could not be bothered to make sure beyond any chance that he would be up on time. As the HC or GM there would be a massive upswelling of hatred towards me for enforcing the decision, just like there is on this board concerning missing a meaningless game, but the truth is that all of them would be wrong.  You'd be making excuses for Jack Eichel.  A guy who could have done all kinds of things to get up on time and show up like the rest of his team did but did not.  A guy who ruined your hopes of your team winning a Stanley Cup because he couldn't set two alarms and make sure someone got him up.  It's easy to blame the guy who has to enforce the punishment.  

 

You are 100% correct in thinking that those 15 minutes are not going to impact the game he is going to play that night.  In my world, standards are standards and it takes a lot of factors to fall in line before I'd consider them not applicable.

 

Exactly. Which makes the benching pointless. Has far more drawback than gain. Only gain is the hopeful quickening of Bylsma getting the can.

 

Drawback for whom?  The players have moved on from this.  The front office staff considers this over.  The only people who are still talking about it are the media and the fans. 

[GoPre]

[quote name="LTS" post="930766" timestamp=

 

 

Drawback for whom? The players have moved on from this. The front office staff considers this over. The only people who are still talking about it are the media and the fans.

 

 

How often do you hear a player be as up front as Reinhart? Or even use profanity when addressing anything along the lines of Reinhart's situation. Especially from a player who appears to have a proper set of morals and values. If anything all of this has added fuel to the fire. Exit interviews will be very interesting.

[bunomatic]

I've responded to it.  Teams suffer injuries in a game, sometimes almost right away, that cause them to play with 17 skaters or 16 skaters.  Just because one of them is suspended doesn't change the reality of the number of skaters.  Let's say in the next game Sam Reinhart goes out on his first shift and 8 seconds in checks a guy from behind and gets ejected.  Would you blame the league for putting the Sabres down a man for the game or would you blame Sam Reinhart for being careless?  What's the difference of missing all but 8 seconds of a game and all of the game?  The player is responsible for their action and no one else.

 

 

 

I don't think this represents either argument that's being made.

 

 

As I said before, since it is not uncommon for teams to skate with 17 players in a game it's not that big of a deal.  The sitting on the bench part is an interesting twist on the situation and is probably what has people the most upset.  However, some of Sam's comments made it sound like he wanted to support his team and I've also heard comments that they decided it was best if he was there.  I still don't know what the truth is but I don't care about that relative to making excuses to shorten or move the penalty. The penalty cannot exist without the action of the player.

 

 

I would suspend him.  Without any second guessing myself.  You either can hold people accountable for their actions or not.  In this case, Eichel sleeps late. There is no secondary variable. The player was irresponsible.  He now has to sit in a room with an entire team he's spent the season with and try to explain why he could not be responsible enough to get up on time.  He has to explain why he is lessening their chances of winning the Stanley Cup, a goal they've all dreamed about since being kids, because he could not be bothered to make sure beyond any chance that he would be up on time. As the HC or GM there would be a massive upswelling of hatred towards me for enforcing the decision, just like there is on this board concerning missing a meaningless game, but the truth is that all of them would be wrong.  You'd be making excuses for Jack Eichel.  A guy who could have done all kinds of things to get up on time and show up like the rest of his team did but did not.  A guy who ruined your hopes of your team winning a Stanley Cup because he couldn't set two alarms and make sure someone got him up.  It's easy to blame the guy who has to enforce the punishment.  

 

You are 100% correct in thinking that those 15 minutes are not going to impact the game he is going to play that night.  In my world, standards are standards and it takes a lot of factors to fall in line before I'd consider them not applicable.

 

 

Drawback for whom?  The players have moved on from this.  The front office staff considers this over.  The only people who are still talking about it are the media and the fans. 

Thanks LTS. Whether I agree with your assessment or not it doesn't matter. What I see of you on sabrespace and your standards actually remind me a lot of my Dad growing up. He was my coach for a large part of my minor hockey ' career ' and he was always hardest on me but looking back I'd have it no other way. A good part of who I became as a person came from those lessons on and off the ice

[Wyldnwoody44]

I think it's silly, but fair. I wish we knew the whole story, the real truth, all I have is a lot of speculation (some good ones at that)

 

I try not to compare my job to that of an NHLer, but if I'm late to something, those 5 minutes could be the difference of life or death. (although there is usually always competent backup) My room for error is very small. I guess if this is what your life is about.... The Stanley Cup.... Then you make sure to do everything you need to, to assure you don't put yourself in this situation.

 

A benching sucks, but I think it's gonna be OK, honestly.

 

 

I still want DD to go Bye bye, but it's from what happened previous to this that makes me want that.

[LTS]

How often do you hear a player be as up front as Reinhart? Or even use profanity when addressing anything along the lines of Reinhart's situation. Especially from a player who appears to have a proper set of morals and values. If anything all of this has added fuel to the fire. Exit interviews will be very interesting.

 

This is why I like Reinhart.  In the article that Harrington wrote they had a Murray quote that basically said, he knew some player would be late.. but if you had asked him which player it would be Sam would have been at the bottom of the list.  Assuming no media spin, it was clear that Murray believes in Reinhart and respects him and clearly expected some other players to be more likely to be late.  Reinhart comes from a hockey family.  He's been trained to be a professional all his life.

 

Thanks LTS. Whether I agree with your assessment or not it doesn't matter. What I see of you on sabrespace and your standards actually remind me a lot of my Dad growing up. He was my coach for a large part of my minor hockey ' career ' and he was always hardest on me but looking back I'd have it no other way. A good part of who I became as a person came from those lessons on and off the ice

 

That's a hell of a compliment.  Thank you. Truly.

[WildCard]

 

 

The standard punishment around the NHL for being late to a team event is, usually, a trip to the press box for the evening to observe the game as a healthy scratch. This wasn’t an option for the Sabres last Tuesday, as Kyle Okposo got sick shortly before the game, and the team had no other forward options to dress to meet the required 18 skater roster.

 

Okposo’s illness is the excuse many are using to rationalize Bylsma’s decision-making — his hand was forced by the circumstances, and he had no choice but to dress Reinhart and punish him by not playing him from the bench.

 

The problem with that argument is that there is no actual rule that says if a player is late to something, he must be scratched. There are no automatic consequences for a coach who allows a less than punctual player to participate in a game, particularly in extenuating circumstances.

 

Dressing a player (one of your team’s best) with no intention of playing him says you feel that punishing that player publicly — making sure people know that he did something wrong — is more important than giving your team its best chance to win. Moreover, if you intentionally play a man down the entire game, you’re no longer punishing that one player. You’re punishing your entire team.

 

The common argument here is that the player has to be punished because the team is “creating a culture.”

 

The message actually being sent is “making a point to this player, and embarrassing him, is more important to me than giving our team their best shot at winning tonight.”

 

Ironically, the rule in question wasn’t even a Sabres team rule the day before. Prior to last Tuesday, if a player was late to some kind of team meeting, the punishment was to miss a power play shift. It was changed because not all players get power play time to begin with. You’d think, in this situation, with no players to spare, Bylsma would briefly default to the original punishment. He did not.

 

This isn’t a problem specific to Bylsma. He’s simply the latest example of the failure of the typical leadership mindset in hockey, one that is pervasive throughout the entire NHL.

 

...

 

In coaching, rarely do you see positive results from negative punishment. Building relationships with players, and thus building trust, is key for coaches who want players to buy in to their leadership.

 

Negative punishment — particularly when done publicly, for that added element of humiliation — is at best only going to foster resentment with the affected player. Most likely, it’s also going to have players following team rules because they’ve got fear of that same kind of public punishment or callout in front of the media (which usually goes viral, thanks to social media) lurking in the back of their minds.

 

You cannot be an effective leader from a place of fear, and when you begin doing so, you’ve lost your team.

 

Punishment is rarely an effective leadership method. Study after study shows that the use of reinforcement, both positive and negative, is a much better approach. It’s not that punishment should never be used, but when it’s possible to make something a teachable moment (like when a player is late because he misread a text message, or when he “blows the zone” and you’d prefer he not do that), rather than publicly embarrassing him, that should be the preferred approach.

 

News came out Tuesday that Rowe reportedly wouldn’t be returning to the Panthers next season as coach. The jury is out on whether he’s also sealed his fate as general manager.

 

Whether a similar situation happens with Bylsma is up in the air, but given the Reinhart incident, and reports of friction between him and players like Reinhart and Jack Eichel (as stated on the Leafs/Sabres game broadcast this week), it wouldn’t be surprising to see him replaced during the offseason.

 

 

https://www.fanragsports.com/nhl/accountability-nhls-favorite-word-often-misses-mark/

[LTS]

Whew... the author sure knows how to sling a line of crap eh?

 

She's throwing all kinds of counseling terms around without understanding them.  She contradicts herself and even undermines herself and never offers a better solution other than... "lessen the consequences because standards are hard"