Updated: Dallas signs Bayreuther

[Robviously]

The part that really hurts is that you know this guy was going to be an awesome defenseman for us just by virtue of the fact that Tim Murray was so excited about him.

[North Buffalo]

Shouldn't have announce Antipin signing till after bayreuther decision... unless they already knew...

[ct fab]

Antipin can't sign until after the KHL season, so just speculation at this point

[Thorner]

And if that involves trading Kane?

I'd prefer to keep Kane if at any way possible, but if he's the piece that needs to go to get that d-man, I don't think twice.

[SarasotaSabre]

Eyyyyyyyyy welcome back!

And if we can get people in over Gorges and whoever replaces Kulikov when Kulikov gets hurt again (is Kulikov hurt right now? I simply can't remember) then I am all in on them, just for something different than Gorges.

 

Thanks for the welcome back! In addition to posting here after an extended AWOL, how about me moving back to Buffalo recently after a 27 year post-college expatriation? Yesterday was the first day during that timeframe I drove in any kind of snow.

 

It was time to come home and help the parents. 

[Guest]

Thanks for the welcome back! In addition to posting here after an extended AWOL, how about me moving back to Buffalo recently after a 27 year post-college expatriation? Yesterday was the first day during that timeframe I drove in any kind of snow.

 

It was time to come home and help the parents. 

I moved mine here to the Atl.  It was easier.

[Rasmus_]

I'm sure there are others to come out as an OHL, Q, or College Sign that Murray is looking into.  To be honest, it's a 50/50 bust possibility.  Casey Nelson, how you doing boy!

[woods-racer]

The fact that Murray is looking everywhere and open to every option to have the best training camp battle for D we've seen in a many years is wonderful to hear and read about. 

[Robviously]

The fact that Murray is looking everywhere and open to every option to have the best training camp battle for D we've seen in a many years is wonderful to hear and read about. 

It's also proof of how badly he's done building our defense and how desperate we are for help.

[Guest]

It's also proof of how badly he's done building our defense and how desperate we are for help.

This^^

[tom webster]

This^^

The guy has been involved in 3 drafts and more then half the picks have been defensemen including 4 of 6 in 2015. At least 3 of the defensemen are considered solid, if not spectacular NHL prospects. In addition, he has signed one college free agent and about to sign one KHL free agent. The organization depth is barren because of what went on before he took over. Where exactly was he supposed to get these other defensemen? Can you give me some names of 23 to 26 year old guys that other teams have acquired since GMTM took over?

[Guest]

How does 9 of 26 equal 50% or more? How does 1 of 8 1st and 2nd rd picks equal a concentration on defensemen? How does trading away McNabb, Zadorov and Pysyk, mostly for forwards and then not drafting any higher end talent equate to not emptying out our D pipeline?

 

How does fielding a team with GMTM acquisitions of Bogo, Franson, Kulikov and Gorges that resulted in the worst D in the NHL this season not raise the question of GMTM's competence at building a defense?

 

If you want examples of what he has missed look no further then the draft. I've discussed taking Montour instead of Karabacek in 2014 because he had already drafted 3 forwards. I've also questioned why Nylander when Segachev and Chychrun were available in the first last year, especially when you consider his list of top prospects and young forwards included Eichel, Reinhart, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, Carrier, Cornel, Karabacek (also traded away good forwards prospect Compher and Lemieux for more forwards) and only one D in Guhle and then followed up that Nylander pick with 2 more forwards in Pu and Asplund.

 

In addition for the defense all he signed was a college FA in Nelson and a bunch of journeymen D for depth in the organization. In fact the most experienced depth guy he signed has Carlo for 2015, but no one for 2016 with more the 186 games of NHL experience and that was 31 year old Strachan who is barely an AHL player anymore.

Edited March 16, 2017 by yse325

[tom webster]

How does 9 of 26 equal 50% or more? How does 1 of 8 1st and 2nd rd picks equal a concentration on defensemen? How does trading away McNabb, Zadorov and Pysyk, mostly for forwards and then not drafting any higher end talent equate to not emptying out our D pipeline?

 

How does fielding a team with GMTM acquisitions of Bogo, Franson, Kulikov and Gorges that resulted in the worst D in the NHL this season not raise the question of GMTM's competence at building a defense?

 

If you want examples of what he has missed look no further then the draft. I've discussed taking Montour instead of Karabacek in 2014 because he had already drafted 3 forwards. I've also questioned why Nylander when Segachev and Chychrun were available in the first last year, especially when you consider his list of top prospects and young forwards included Eichel, Reinhart, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, Carrier, Cornel, Karabacek (also traded away good forwards prospect Compher and Lemieux for more forwards) and only one D in Guhle and then followed up that Nylander pick with 2 more forwards in Pu and Asplund.

 

In addition for the defense all he signed was a college FA in Nelson and a bunch of journeymen D for depth in the organization. In fact the most experienced depth guy he signed has Carlo for 2015, but no one for 2016 with more the 186 games of NHL experience and that was 31 year old Strachan who is barely an AHL player anymore.

McNabb and Zadorov are journeyman who have yet to show an ability to be anything more then depth guys.

I was one of the earliest aboard the Pysyk train so I'll give you that.

The rest implies that there were better options available.

As for the draft, no good organization drafts for need. You draft the best player available. Time will tell if he made the right move.

The defense will be fixed next year and they will have at least three prospects waiting in the wings.

After that the rebuild is complete and you only need to add a prospect or two every draft to maintain your edge.

[Guest]

McNabb and Zadorov are journeyman who have yet to show an ability to be anything more then depth guys.

I was one of the earliest aboard the Pysyk train so I'll give you that.

The rest implies that there were better options available.

As for the draft, no good organization drafts for need. You draft the best player available. Time will tell if he made the right move.

The defense will be fixed next year and they will have at least three prospects waiting in the wings.

After that the rebuild is complete and you only need to add a prospect or two every draft to maintain your edge.

 

Listen if he gets the D right this time and Borgen and Fitzgerald sign and become excellent prospects, great!  However there is ample evidence that he might not be the best at  evaluating of D talent.

 

And BAP is BS.  We have only a vague idea what factors go into the rating of a prospect by a GM and his staff.  Age, position, league, nationality, speed, size, shot, IQ, Height, fitness are all some of the factors that GM's look at in making their draft board.  There is no simple rating of player X is better then player y regardless of position.  It just not that simple.  This factors are all weighed differently by different organizations and thus some team seem to emphasis D in their BAP (like Ana and Nash) other overweight nationality (Wash) others emphasis size or speed etc...  As to GMTM we already know that he tiers his prospects (he said that Asplund was the only "5" left on his board).  We know fitness is important because Guhle jumped up the draft board because of his fitness scores, and like it or not position does matter to him.  He clearly over emphasizes forwards at the top of the draft.  All three drafts have illustrated this. He also tried to re-balance his prospect pool by drafting 4 of 6 D in 2015 after one getting 1 of 9 in 2014.  I think this is a failing strategy long-term.  Hoping to build a D with 3rd rd and lower drafted D prospects long-term is a fools strategy.  You may get lucky once or twice, but the odds are stacked against you long-term.  The vast maturity of the top D in the NHL are 1st rd picks with a few 2nd rounders.  

 

If you want proof that position does matter to GMTM, I'll make this wager.  If Petersen signs elsewhere, that will leave Johansson as the goalie prospect left in the pipeline and I'll bet that GMTM drafts at least one in the 2017 draft.  He might also sign a college UFA to help fill the whole created by Petersen's departure. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by yse325

[dudacek]

Risto, McCabe,

Myers, McNabb,

Pysyk, Zadorov,

Montour Chychrun

 

...would certainly be much more promising than our current corps.

 

But we would have more easily gone McKeown and Sergachev, not Montour or Chychrun, since they were the highest ranked D on the board.

And we wouldn't have O'Reilly and Kane and Nylander (or Fasching, Bogosian, Deslauriers, Fitzgerald, Karabacek, Kulikov or Asplund)

(But we still would have Compher and Lemieux and...)

 

The point is nothing happens in a vacuum.

Edited March 16, 2017 by dudacek

[Guest]

Risto, McCabe,

Myers, McNabb,

Pysyk, Zadorov,

Montour Chychrun

 

...would certainly be much more promising than our current corps.

 

But we would have more easily gone McKeown and Sergachev, not Montour or Chychrun, since they were the highest ranked D on the board.

And we wouldn't have O'Reilly and Kane and Nylander (or Fasching, Bogosian, Deslauriers, Fitzgerald, Karabacek, Kulikov or Asplund)

(But we still would have Compher and Lemieux and...)

 

The point is nothing happens in a vacuum.

And there is a problem with not having Fasching, Delo, Bogo, Karabacek and Kulikov?  

 

No nothing happens in a vacuum, but that is the point.  I never said that Myers or Zadorov shouldn't be traded (I did say that the McNabb and Kulikov were bad deals - McNabb due to the amount of assets given away and Kulikov because I thought then and think now that Pysyk was the better player especially for the price.) Every decision to over-weigh forwards has been at the expense of good defense. All I've ever asked for was balance and more depth on defense. In fact, as we sink further in the standings and watch this team of GMTM give up 40 shots a night, I realized that this was the Achilles' heel that many writers talked about at the beginning of the season.  

 

This is from NHL.com's preview

 

Why they could miss the Stanley Cup Playoffs 

Defensive problems suppress the offense more than their opponents do because they're often unable to get the puck out of trouble. 

 

Others questioned why GMTM didn't bring in more experienced D depth.  So if this issue was obvious to sports writers before the season began, why are any of us really surprised that this known flaw destroyed the season now?  Furthermore adding Antipin and Guhle and hoping 2 rookies solve the problems he created on the defense is simple dumb.  If he fails again to acquire the legit top 4 D he has been promising for 3 years, I think it time to re think who is building this team.

Edited March 16, 2017 by yse325

[Doohicksie]

If he fails again to acquire the legit top 4 D he has been promising for 3 years, I think it time to re think who is building this team.

 

He has?

[Guest]

Sadly, he has. GMTM said when he acquired Bogo, he got him to be the minute eating puck mover. When that failed, he said in 2015 he wanted a LD puck mover to balance the D and anchor a D pairing. Instead he signed slow RD Franson for 2 yrs. This past off-season he again said the same thing, inquired about Cam Fowler and instead traded for the great Kulikov to balance the D. Now we are on year 4 of GMTM's search for the puck mover to anchor our second pair.

 

The clock is ticking Tim.

Edited March 16, 2017 by yse325

[nfreeman]

Sadly, he has. GMTM said when he acquired Bogo, he got him to be the minute eating puck mover. When that failed, he said in 2015 he wanted a LD puck mover to balance the D and anchor a D pairing. Instead he signed slow RD Franson for 2 yrs. This past off-season he again said the same thing, inquired about Cam Fowler and instead traded for the great Kulikov to balance the D. Now we are on year 4 of GMTM's search for the puck mover to anchor our second pair.

 

The clock is ticking Tim.

 

yse -- the point about the D needing an upgrade is valid, and you've made it repeatedly.  I think it's incumbent upon you at this point to identify the defensemen that have changed teams in the past couple of years that you think GMTM should've brought in for the Sabres, as well as the realistic price you think he should've paid for them.

[North Buffalo]

yse -- the point about the D needing an upgrade is valid, and you've made it repeatedly. I think it's incumbent upon you at this point to identify the defensemen that have changed teams in the past couple of years that you think GMTM should've brought in for the Sabres, as well as the realistic price you think he should've paid for them.

Or should have drafted... just saying montour woulda been nice and Ghule needs to make the team next year or thats a wasted draft pick imo. Edited March 16, 2017 by North Buffalo

[nfreeman]

Or should have drafted... just saying montour woulda been nice and Ghule needs to make the team next year or thats a wasted draft pick imo.

 

Maybe.  Montour has played 17 NHL games and was drafted a year before Guhle, who is 19 years old.

 

It's way too early to tell about either of them -- and therefore it seems pretty odd to criticize GMTM for not drafting Montour, because saying that Montour would be a significant difference-maker on this year's Sabres team seems pretty unrealistic.

[Guest]

yse -- the point about the D needing an upgrade is valid, and you've made it repeatedly. I think it's incumbent upon you at this point to identify the defensemen that have changed teams in the past couple of years that you think GMTM should've brought in for the Sabres, as well as the realistic price you think he should've paid for them.

Oh that is easy.

1) I have said numerous times I would have taken Segachev or Chychrun over Nylander.

 

2) I also would have never traded Pysyk for Kulikov. Pysyk's offensive output was similar (11 pts in 55 games to 17pts in 74 games), his possession numbers were better and he was 25% of the price. I would have taken the cap saving and improved the organizational D depth by going after 2 vets. For example lefties Kyle Quincey (31) and Seidenberg (35) were signed for 1.25 mill or less each. Both have been very good this season and both would have given us exceptional depth on the left D and you'd still have $1 in extra cap space. Obviously GMTM also talked to Ana about Fowler and I would have offered Bailey, Girgensons and our first this season to get him. I would have also taken injured Stoner off their hands as to given them more cap room. Now consider what Fowler is compared to Kulikov and then realize that Kulikov costs 300K more per season.

 

3) As to Franson. It's a speed game and he isn't fast. Adding him to a roster that already had (and still has) the glacial skating Gorges was an obvious mistake. Giving him a two year deal when every other experienced GM only offered him a 1 yr deal was a second mistake. Adding another RD when you said you needed a LD was a third mistake. Just looking at the FA market, Cup winning good skating and LD puck mover Oduya was signed by Dallas for 2 yrs 3.75 per season. Granted he was older, but the Cup experience coupled with puck moving skills as a LD checked off the stated needs much better then Franson. Going cheaper, LD Matt Irwin could have been signed for next to nothing despite good years in SJ, (in Fact TSN's Scott Cullen suggested he'd be a good fit in Buffalo). Heck, if you had gone for Oduya, you had the cap space to also go after Irwin as insurance if the older Oduya got hurt. Hard to know what players were discussed in trade, but Dougie Hamilton was available and we had (before the Lehner deal) similar assets to what Boston got for him.

Edited March 16, 2017 by yse325

[tom webster]

Oh that is easy.

1) I have said numerous times I would have taken Segachev or Chychrun over Nylander.

 

2) I also would have never traded Pysyk for Kulikov. Pysyk's offensive output was similar (11 pts in 55 games to 17pts in 74 games), his possession numbers were better and he was 25% of the price. I would have taken the cap saving and improved the organizational D depth by going after 2 vets. For example lefties Kyle Quincey (31) and Seidenberg (35) were signed for 1.25 mill or less each. Both have been very good this season and both would have given us exceptional depth on the left D and you'd still have $1 in extra cap space. Obviously GMTM also talked to Ana about Fowler and I would have offered Bailey, Girgensons and our first this season to get him. I would have also taken injured Stoner off their hands as to given them more cap room. Now consider what Fowler is compared to Kulikov and then realize that Kulikov costs 300K more per season.

 

3) As to Franson. It's a speed game and he isn't fast. Adding him to a roster that already had (and still has) the glacial skating Gorges was an obvious mistake. Giving him a two year deal when every other experienced GM only offered him a 1 yr deal was a second mistake. Adding another RD when you said you needed a LD was a third mistake. Just looking at the FA market, Cup winning good skating and LD puck mover Oduya was signed by Dallas for 2 yrs 3.75 per season. Granted he was older, but the Cup experience coupled with puck moving skills as a LD checked off the stated needs much better then Franson. Going cheaper, LD Matt Irwin could have been signed for next to nothing despite good years in SJ, (in Fact TSN's Scott Cullen suggested he'd be a good fit in Buffalo). Heck, if you had gone for Oduya, you had the cap space to also go after Irwin as insurance if the older Oduya got hurt. Hard to know what players were discussed in trade, but Dougie Hamilton was available and we had (before the Lehner deal) similar assets to what Boston got for him.

Again, you didn't answer the question. Talking about what trades you would have made is nonsense unless you have someone working for Anaheim who tells us they would have taken that.

Talking about prospects is irrelevant for at least two years when they may be ready for the NHL.

They offered Oduya a deal, he chose Dallas. Franson was signed just before season because he was the only available defenseman.

The only thing that I agree with you, as previously state is Pysyk.

[Guest]

Again, you didn't answer the question. Talking about what trades you would have made is nonsense unless you have someone working for Anaheim who tells us they would have taken that.

Talking about prospects is irrelevant for at least two years when they may be ready for the NHL.

They offered Oduya a deal, he chose Dallas. Franson was signed just before season because he was the only available defenseman.

The only thing that I agree with you, as previously state is Pysyk.

I answered the question perfectly. He asked who changed teams that I would have acquired instead of Kulikov and Franson

Instead of Franson, I'd have signed Matt Irwin, a younger cheaper pick moving LD as Scott Cullen suggested, and if as you say that GMTM waiting to long and Franson was all that was left, I'd have overpaid for a one year deal, thereby keeping my options open for following season.

Sergachev played for Mon early this season and Chychrun all season for Arizona. Clearly both were and are closer to NHL ready then Nylander and were both better fits for this organization.

I'm glad we agree that Kulikov should never had been acquired, and that using the money we paid Kulikov would have been better spent on signing veteran D to insure depth in the organization.

Edited March 16, 2017 by yse325

[nfreeman]

Oh that is easy.

1) I have said numerous times I would have taken Segachev or Chychrun over Nylander.

 

2) I also would have never traded Pysyk for Kulikov. Pysyk's offensive output was similar (11 pts in 55 games to 17pts in 74 games), his possession numbers were better and he was 25% of the price. I would have taken the cap saving and improved the organizational D depth by going after 2 vets. For example lefties Kyle Quincey (31) and Seidenberg (35) were signed for 1.25 mill or less each. Both have been very good this season and both would have given us exceptional depth on the left D and you'd still have $1 in extra cap space. Obviously GMTM also talked to Ana about Fowler and I would have offered Bailey, Girgensons and our first this season to get him. I would have also taken injured Stoner off their hands as to given them more cap room. Now consider what Fowler is compared to Kulikov and then realize that Kulikov costs 300K more per season.

 

3) As to Franson. It's a speed game and he isn't fast. Adding him to a roster that already had (and still has) the glacial skating Gorges was an obvious mistake. Giving him a two year deal when every other experienced GM only offered him a 1 yr deal was a second mistake. Adding another RD when you said you needed a LD was a third mistake. Just looking at the FA market, Cup winning good skating and LD puck mover Oduya was signed by Dallas for 2 yrs 3.75 per season. Granted he was older, but the Cup experience coupled with puck moving skills as a LD checked off the stated needs much better then Franson. Going cheaper, LD Matt Irwin could have been signed for next to nothing despite good years in SJ, (in Fact TSN's Scott Cullen suggested he'd be a good fit in Buffalo). Heck, if you had gone for Oduya, you had the cap space to also go after Irwin as insurance if the older Oduya got hurt. Hard to know what players were discussed in trade, but Dougie Hamilton was available and we had (before the Lehner deal) similar assets to what Boston got for him.

Again, you didn't answer the question. Talking about what trades you would have made is nonsense unless you have someone working for Anaheim who tells us they would have taken that.

Talking about prospects is irrelevant for at least two years when they may be ready for the NHL.

They offered Oduya a deal, he chose Dallas. Franson was signed just before season because he was the only available defenseman.

The only thing that I agree with you, as previously state is Pysyk.

 

yse -- good post with good detail.  Although TW beat me to it, here are a few additional items:

 

- Chychrun is a 3rd-pairing defenseman for a terrible team, and Sergachev has played 3 NHL games.  It's way too soon to know whether either will be a better pro than Nylander -- and it's certainly the case that neither would've been a difference-maker for the Sabres this year (and probably not next year either).

 

- As TW noted, the Sabres took a shot at Oduya -- and he's been pretty much a disappointment in Dallas anyway.

 

- Certainly others (including TW) agree with you on Pysyk, but I am not one of them.  I think he adds very little value -- and if we want to compare apples to apples, Kulikov had a much better year for Fla last year than Pysyk had this year.  It's too bad Kuli was hurt all year because I think he has much more game than Pysyk, but we aren't going to get to see it.

 

- I agree with TW that the proposed Fowler trade is neither here nor there, as it's highly unlikely (and in any case impossible to know) that Anaheim would've accepted that offer.  Similarly, I would guess that Boston didn't want to trade Hamilton within the division.

 

- I think you make good points though on Quincey and Seidenberg.